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Support Liara T'Soni for ME3 - Squadmate and LI

Débuté par Nozybidaj , févr. 18 2010 08:42

50907 réponses à ce sujet

#21401
Guest_justinnstuff_*
Posté 26 avril 2010 - 02:24

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Metal-Dragon-Kiryu wrote...

I doubt we'll see much in the way of character development in DLC to be honest. As much as I would love DLC that adds Liara as a squadmate and all that, they would have to make ME3 work for someone who didn't get that DLC.

At the moment, Liara is the only ME1 character that can't die - assuring her a decent role in ME3. If DLC made her a squadmate, she can then die, and therefore they won't put as much effort into her ME3 content as there's a chance people won't see it.

Same goes for simple development - if there's DLC that expands the role of the ME1 LIs, ME3 will have to take into account the fact that people may not have that DLC.

It's like BDtS - the only carryover from that was an e-mail. As soon as something becomes a variable, the amount of work involved skyrockets, and the importance of each permutation will probably diminish.

That's why I am a little concerned about the Liara DLC - it's pretty much certain it will be released at some point, but the problem is - if it involves any changes to her character, ME3 will have to be built to accomodate that, and I'm not exactly optimistic about the priority BW would place on it.


Yeah, there won't be character development in DLC, but there should be in an expansion. I don't think there's been an official announcement for an expansion, but I really hope they take that route. I feel like they've got a lot of story arcs that need finished before ME3, not during. DLC sounds like a fun idea at first, but it's a very limiting factor. It can  never be plot centric because it has to be assumed that the consumer may not purchase it. I prefer properly done expansions.

#21402
bjdbwea
Posté 26 avril 2010 - 02:26

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Metal-Dragon-Kiryu wrote...

I still think that Ash, Kaidan and Liara will suddenly become good-natured again in ME3 if and when we're "allowed" to have them back.


Fixed it for you. :(

Modifié par bjdbwea, 26 avril 2010 - 02:27 .

#21403
bjdbwea
Posté 26 avril 2010 - 02:26

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Huh, double post? I'm sure I just *edited* my post.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 26 avril 2010 - 02:27 .

#21404
Guest_LesEnfantsTerribles_*
Posté 26 avril 2010 - 02:30

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After logging back in again, and seeing MDK's opinion of Liara's reaction when you initially refuse to help her in the Observer quest, I had to quickly run back upstairs to see for myself, as I couldn't really remember what happens (Yeah, I have saves before every single Liara convo in ME2, as well as the picture scene. Sue me! :P) and I wanted to gauge my own opinion.



To be honest, I don't think it's as bad as alot of people say it is. Sure, it's pretty jarring, I'd agree with that, but actually listen to what Liara says. If there's one thing Liara always is during her ME2 scenes, it's that she's very honest and forthright. She never hides away just what she's doing, why she's doing it, and how she's doing, except for her true motive of course for obvious reasons, namely her fear Shepard will hate her. When you refuse the Observer quest, Liara is just being very forthright and honest about what needs to be done. Consider this as well, if Liara truly had no qualms about killing all 5 suspects, do you not think she would have done so already? No, instead of taking the easy way out and eliminating all of them, she meticulously decides to only kill the person whom she views as absolutely necessary. This shows to me that Liara is deliberately avoiding unneccessary bloodshed whenever possible, and will not kill unless absolutely necessary. The fact that Liara is maintaining this principal, even in such a seedy and corrupt world like the world of intrigue, is admirable and shows that she's not compromising her principals and values. She's only killing when there's no other option, and when it's a necessity.



Considering what is eventually revealed to be her hardened facade when she eventually breaks down, do you think Liara is enjoying her work? Nope, wouldn't say so. Does she want to kill all 5 suspects? That's clearly not the case. Is she seeking to avoid violence whenever possible? Certainly seems that way. What we're seeing here is just another facet of Liara's hardened facade, the fact that she's forcing herself to do things that she obviously doesn't want to do, in order to take down the Shadow Broker for motivations that are very sympathetic, ie her grief, her sorrow, her guilt over what happened to Shepard, her fear that Shepard will hate her. Liara needs comforting, she needs help. We're artificially prevented from doing so in-game. It's incredibly frustrating.



As for indifference toward Shepard, initially it seems that way, yes. But then we get the later revelation when Liara opens her heart that she's been afraid Shepard will hate her. Doesn't this kind of explain her distance at first? That she's afraid Shepard will hate her for handing the corpse over to Cerberus, and so Liara seeks to keep her distance, terrified that the person she loves will flip out on her. Terrified that Shepard will hate her, Liara forgoes any kind of intimacy with Shepard, which then becomes apparent when Liara does open up, finally shows love and emotion to Shepard, and reveals just what the hell is going on. Sadly, this is never expanded upon, and we only get a very short conversation when Liara opens up, and reveals her true feelings. After that, it disappears again.



Also, I finally saw the dialogue choice for the first time when Shepard compares Liara to Benezia. Shepard = douche. >:(

#21405
OrbitalWings
Posté 26 avril 2010 - 02:31

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justinnstuff wrote...

Yeah, there won't be character development in DLC, but there should be in an expansion. I don't think there's been an official announcement for an expansion, but I really hope they take that route. I feel like they've got a lot of story arcs that need finished before ME3, not during. DLC sounds like a fun idea at first, but it's a very limiting factor. It can  never be plot centric because it has to be assumed that the consumer may not purchase it. I prefer properly done expansions.


Unfortunately, an expansion would probably have the same limitations. They won't force people to buy the expansion to play ME3, and therefore any choices made in it won't have much of an impact.

I have no idea if DA2 will carry over stuff from DA:O, but it's highly likely that choices from DA:A won't play that much of a part in DA2, as there's a chance players won't have DA:A, let alone DA:O.

Will BW really put that much effort into carrying over decisions made in an optional expansion for a game players may not even have, in ME3?

#21406
Guest_yorkj86_*
Posté 26 avril 2010 - 02:34

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Metal-Dragon-Kiryu wrote...

Firstly, here's another preview - her face is finished...

Image IPB


I've always liked the detail you put in to the luster of the small fish-scales Liara has on her head-crest.  You put them elsewhere on her body, too, which is a creative liberty you take with her design that I think turns out very well.

#21407
Guest_justinnstuff_*
Posté 26 avril 2010 - 02:35

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Metal-Dragon-Kiryu wrote...

justinnstuff wrote...

Yeah, there won't be character development in DLC, but there should be in an expansion. I don't think there's been an official announcement for an expansion, but I really hope they take that route. I feel like they've got a lot of story arcs that need finished before ME3, not during. DLC sounds like a fun idea at first, but it's a very limiting factor. It can  never be plot centric because it has to be assumed that the consumer may not purchase it. I prefer properly done expansions.


Unfortunately, an expansion would probably have the same limitations. They won't force people to buy the expansion to play ME3, and therefore any choices made in it won't have much of an impact.

I have no idea if DA2 will carry over stuff from DA:O, but it's highly likely that choices from DA:A won't play that much of a part in DA2, as there's a chance players won't have DA:A, let alone DA:O.

Will BW really put that much effort into carrying over decisions made in an optional expansion for a game players may not even have, in ME3?


No I think you're right. My previous post was wishful thinking. They've already stated ME3 as well will be a standalone game. That doesn't leave much room for interpretation. I don't see any import saves making any real impact on the overall story. I think ME2 to ME3 will be like it was from 1 to 2. You'll see some minor differences, but the difference between saving the council or letting them die and other "major" decisions will eventually lead to the same plot.

#21408
Guest_LesEnfantsTerribles_*
Posté 26 avril 2010 - 02:37

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In the DLC, any possible Liara comforting scene if she's your LI won't have too much of an effect on the overarching Liara/Shepard story. To me, that's what's entirely possible, and what I want more than any other. A nice scene in Shepard's cabin on the Normandy on the way back from the mission, in which Liara opens her heart, reveals all of her guilt and pain for what's happened, and puts her heart on the line. A deep, emotional reaffirmation of the romance, and Shepard comforting Liara and helping to ease her of her pain. To me, that is entirely possible.

#21409
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Posté 26 avril 2010 - 02:39

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LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...

In the DLC, any possible Liara comforting scene if she's your LI won't have too much of an effect on the overarching Liara/Shepard story. To me, that's what's entirely possible, and what I want more than any other. A nice scene in Shepard's cabin on the Normandy on the way back from the mission, in which Liara opens her heart, reveals all of her guilt and pain for what's happened, and puts her heart on the line. A deep, emotional reaffirmation of the romance, and Shepard comforting Liara and helping to ease her of her pain. To me, that is entirely possible.


There's only 2 reasons I remain hopeful for this.

1) Kasumi DLC was very well done. There was plenty of dialog and even though Kasumi doesn't have a dialog wheel, she has tons of things to say about events that have taken place.

2) Patrick's LJ post, because I still think that's about Liara's writing :)

#21410
OrbitalWings
Posté 26 avril 2010 - 02:44

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LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...

*snip*


All very good points. I think my main annoyance is that to get a lot of these points, we have to read into her actions a lot; consider the meaning behind everything she says and does. While I don't disagree with them, it's sad that we have to do that to try and give her the amount of backstory that some of the other characters are treated to.

I sometimes wonder whether these things were intentional in the writing, or whether we're just desperate for more justification for her behavior.

#21411
Marcin K
Posté 26 avril 2010 - 02:46

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 i suppose it's another pic time::)
Image IPB
enjoy:)

#21412
Guest_LesEnfantsTerribles_*
Posté 26 avril 2010 - 02:50

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I know, and I'm fully aware that what I analyse and what I think is apparent about Liara's character in ME2 assumes subtlety and deep writing on part of the writers. Whether that is the case can be contested, certainly. I just think that the fact that we see Liara break down, drop the shell and act like the kind, compassionate, caring and sensitive person we all know she is, however briefly, indicates to me that this is their intention. The fact that they give us this tiny tidbit, they show Liara opening up like this suggests to me that alot of what I think is the case with her character, and her hardened facade etc is fully intentional on part of the writers. The mere fact that dialogue branch exists with Liara speaks volumes, IMO.

#21413
bjdbwea
Posté 26 avril 2010 - 03:03

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justinnstuff wrote...

Kasumi DLC was very well done. There was plenty of dialog and even though Kasumi doesn't have a dialog wheel, she has tons of things to say about events that have taken place.


Would you find it "very well done" too if the Liara DLC were handled the same way? With Liara then standing around on the Normandy and playing back a few sentences when you click a button, like one of those dolls? <_<

#21414
jlb524
Posté 26 avril 2010 - 03:04

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They just tried to do too much with Liara's character without putting the effort into explaining it. She gets a few scant minutes of screen time in ME2....not much if you ask me. Her change is very jarring b/c of this.

#21415
Guest_LesEnfantsTerribles_*
Posté 26 avril 2010 - 03:12

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MDK, regarding what you say about the Liara DLC, I think we're operating on the assumption that if the Liara DLC is playable prior to the suicide mission, that she'll only be a temporary squadmate and will return to Illium once it is complete and that if the DLC is released and it's set after the suicide mission, then there's the chance that Liara would rejoin the Normandy on a more permanent basis. Perhaps if she's your LI, she stays in Shepard's cabin and if she isn't then she could stay in the tech lab doing research with Mordin. I'd love it if she were in Shep's cabin!!



Also, regarding any decisions made in Liara's DLC having tangible effects, maybe if a ME2 save imported into ME3 that hasn't completed Liara's DLC will have default choices selected for what happened, similar to a non-import ME2 game? I'm getting pretty hypothetical here, but perhaps if Liara isn't your LI, it assumes you committed the Renegade act and encouraged her to kill the Shadow Broker, and to gain her vengeance. If Liara is your LI, then it assumes you made the Paragon choice, and convinced Liara not to off the Shadow Broker, comforted and consoled her, reaffirmed the romance, and took the Shadow Broker into custody. Default choices would be selected for a ME2 import that doesn't contain the Liara DLC. That way, they can include pretty deep, intimate, emotional and romance content in the Liara DLC.

#21416
Guest_LesEnfantsTerribles_*
Posté 26 avril 2010 - 03:16

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Oh, and MDK? I forgot to say that your newest picture is looking great, and that you've got Liara's beautiful face spot on, again! Great work!



I like the purplely bits in her armpits, too. :-)

#21417
Guest_justinnstuff_*
Posté 26 avril 2010 - 03:21

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bjdbwea wrote...

justinnstuff wrote...

Kasumi DLC was very well done. There was plenty of dialog and even though Kasumi doesn't have a dialog wheel, she has tons of things to say about events that have taken place.


Would you find it "very well done" too if the Liara DLC were handled the same way? With Liara then standing around on the Normandy and playing back a few sentences when you click a button, like one of those dolls? <_<


She had more dialog than most of the Normandy crew. Just because you don't select "I want to know more about you" first doesn't make it any more engaging.

EDIT - Changed tone of post so I don't sound like a jerk =]

Modifié par justinnstuff, 26 avril 2010 - 03:25 .

#21418
Guest_justinnstuff_*
Posté 26 avril 2010 - 03:22

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jlb524 wrote...

They just tried to do too much with Liara's character without putting the effort into explaining it. She gets a few scant minutes of screen time in ME2....not much if you ask me. Her change is very jarring b/c of this.


This. She needs to be better explained before ME3 releases.

#21419
Guest_LesEnfantsTerribles_*
Posté 26 avril 2010 - 03:24

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I've said it before, but in ME2 the only ME1 squaddie that acts in a manner that's consistent with their ME1 characterisation is Wrex. Liara is obviously the biggest culprit, but I think Kaidan and Tali are pretty egregious too.

#21420
scmadsen
Posté 26 avril 2010 - 03:31

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I've said this before...but on the subject of Liara and her being saved for something important as they called it...and that she can't die.

I really think it's because they are making an expansion that will be Liara heavy. Her as the main character next to Shepard. I don't think we will play as Liara, but the story of the expansion will focus on her.

See, if Liara had died...then someone that killed her, couldn't play the expansion.I think Ashley and Kaidan will play a part in it...as I don't see enough content for it, coming just from Liara...so they will throw in something to do with the Alliance...but they can't have as big a role, because they both can die. Liara can't.

The good part for us, is lots of Liara...the bad part, is no DLC about Liara...we have to wait till they put out a full expansion.

Modifié par scmadsen, 26 avril 2010 - 03:32 .

#21421
FiveThreeTen
Posté 26 avril 2010 - 03:34

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justinnstuff wrote...

Image IPB

Here it is!

EDIT - Thanks I'm going to need it!


This is awesome :happy:

#21422
bjdbwea
Posté 26 avril 2010 - 03:44

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justinnstuff wrote...

She had more dialog than most of the Normandy crew. Just because you don't select "I want to know more about you" first doesn't make it any more engaging.


I strongly disagree. If I want to passively watch a conversation, I can play any other game. Even shooters have story cutscenes, don't they. If, even worse, I want to listen to a monologue, I can just as well turn on the radio.

Even if Shepard could only say "I see...", or "Interesting, go on!", of course with the camera switching between the actors, it's a whole different level of immersion. But in reality, Shepard should be able to actually talk back, that was the intention of the ME series, and I don't like to see how this concept is being watered down more and more. Of course it's always still only an illusion of interaction, but it's better than nothing. That's why I love ME 1. Static games that tell me a static story bore me. Been there, done that.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 26 avril 2010 - 03:47 .

#21423
Guest_LesEnfantsTerribles_*
Posté 26 avril 2010 - 03:45

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I hope so, sc, but part of me thinks that the huge role that Liara is being saved for will be contained in ME3, along with the surviving Alliance soldier. We'll still get Liara DLC or an expansion, that I'm pretty confident of, but I think that Liara is being saved for a large story role in ME3.



The two aren't mutually exclusive though, so Liara could have a deep, substantial expansion plus a big role in ME3. That would be awesome!

#21424
Guest_LesEnfantsTerribles_*
Posté 26 avril 2010 - 03:48

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Guys, a member who can't post on the forums very kindly sent me a link to a new piece of Liara fanfiction, that I think is pretty good. It's only got one chapter complete so far, but I think there's alot of potential there. Have a read:



http://www.fanfictio...reverendbizarre

#21425
Guest_LesEnfantsTerribles_*
Posté 26 avril 2010 - 04:05

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Pouty Liara. <3
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