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[scmadsen]

When she says "my friend" in the way she does...that's the writers going..."Ahaha...Liara cheated on you, you better go cheat on her with all the new flings we put on your ship!" and it is marketing going..."You have to buy the comic now! Give us money you tools!"

Does that mean Liara really did cheat...no...but it implies it...and the ending of the comic implies that he was/is important to Liara...more so then going with Shepard.

Yes, that very likely isn't the case, but it's still implied.

Modifié par scmadsen, 27 avril 2010 - 03:08 .

[scmadsen]

As for Cerberus...Liara wouldn't care, she handed you over to them, after all. Are the writers so stupid as to have Liara turn you over to them, and then be mad you're working with them...like she expects you to get away from them the moment you wake up.

I'll have to agree with Liara maybe wanting Shepard to leave, because it would just be a huge distraction if Shepard stayed around. Think about it...two years have gone by for her...I think that kiss was unexpected on her part, she wasn't going to do it...thus the head shake...but she couldn't help herself.

If Shepard stays to help her, before she's ready to make her move...she'll be distracted by Shepard...in the...lets go to bed for a month and never leave, kind of way. She knows Shepard has a job to do, and so does she...they have to put all these feeling aside and do what needs to be done.

Yes it sucks, and yes they would rather fall into each others arms and never let go again. But the galaxy doesn't work that way for them. There is our troubled second act. Lovers parted by duty.

Maybe we give Shepard too little credit...maybe Shepard knows what is going on in Liara's mind, maybe that's the reason Shepard doesn't make it worse, by being more affectionate with Liara in her scene. I know it's lame...but think about it...we know Liara loves Shepard so very much...I for one, know my Shepard feels the same way...if they made up right there, it'd be a million times harder to part again.

Modifié par scmadsen, 27 avril 2010 - 03:10 .

[Sunnie]

JaylaClark wrote...

Sunnie22 wrote...

Good evening all!

Is this the Hi Good Evening, or the bye-Good evening?

That would be the Hi version!

[scmadsen]

I'm saying Liara does not care that Shepard is working for Cerberus. She expected that to happen. She tells you that. She is just worried that you will hate her, for her forcing that situation. But she tries to tell you, that she did it for you, because she couldn't let you go. It's weighing heavily on her, that she'd rather see you alive and working for/with Cerberus, then to see you dead. She feels selfish, and knows how out of character and wrong it was, of her. She know Shepard hates Cerberus, and she does as well. She wants the chance to have you back in her life, and she doesn't care what it takes to make that happen. She is worried that for one, Shepard will hate her for being forced to work with Cerberus...and two, that Shepard will hate Liara, because of what she did, in that...she was selfish and did something bad...and she is worried your view of her will change...and you'll think...this isn't the woman I fell in love with.

Modifié par scmadsen, 27 avril 2010 - 03:21 .

[Sunnie]

scmadsen wrote...

if they made up right there, it'd be a million times harder to part again.

This is true, but they didn't have to make Shepard a piece of cardboard with no feelings. I for one would want to make sure she understood how much I cared for her before putting my second life on the line. Theres just some things that must be said in that situation, and Shepard never got the chance to put her personal affairs behind her. TIM asks if she was able but there just isnt any possible way she can with Liara being all businees and Shep being the monotone piece of cardboard. Nothing is said, nothing is settled, nothing has any piece of mind or heart.

[scmadsen]

Nozybidaj wrote...

If it is Liara related I doubt it is romance related. More likely you have to console her after you find Feron's corpse and she breaks down crying over losing him. I just can't see them not taking another stab at kicking us while we are already down by having her get all emotional over Feron after the complete blow off they had her give Shepard.

I hate you...but that is likely to happen. I agree that they might wanna kick us while we are down. It better not turn out like that though.

[scmadsen]

The timing is all off, since I missed the posts on the subject...but biotic lift has more uses then just for combat! Samara comes to mind...expect Liara to always be perky!

[scmadsen]

And the thread died. *stabs it more* I'm talking to myself again it seems. Oh well, here is more fan art.

[Goodwood]

scmadsen wrote...

And the thread died. *stabs it more* I'm talking to myself again it seems. Oh well, here is more fan art.

Who's the second asari in this image? Shepard and Liara's daughter?

[scmadsen]

Yes.

[Goodwood]

scmadsen wrote...

Yes.

That's a nice image, then, but should Shepard be a bit older?

[scmadsen]

Well, it's not my work. I think it looks fine. She only looks to be about ten or so there.

[Nozybidaj]

scmadsen wrote...

I'm saying Liara does not care that Shepard is working for Cerberus. She expected that to happen. She tells you that. She is just worried that you will hate her, for her forcing that situation.

In the end though it all comes down to the crappy writing and railroading they did in ME2.  What happened in ME1 when someone tried to force Shep to do something he didn't want to do?  He stole the frickin Normandy, gave the council the finger, and saved the galaxy any how.

If we were playing the same Shep we played in ME1 know what he would have done?  Given TIM the finger, shot Miranda and Jacob, stole the new Normandy, and blew up the Cerberus base.  Instead the Shep we play in ME2 just bends over and takes it from TIM the entire game.  Of course he has to or else the entire story falls apart, but whatever.

Liara's actions all fall into the same line of reasoning far as I am concerned.  None of it is because "that is what Liara would have done" it is all just contrived to make sure the story didn't fall pieces before our very eyes.  Folks, I think you are just reading too much into things, the story and the characters in ME2 just aren't that deep.

Everything is done the way it had to be done for the gimmick suicide mission and working for Cerberus to not feel completely and totally artifical.  I sincerely doubt there was ever any discussion about what "Liara's motivations and feelings" were.  The discussion was "how do we get her out of the game", I doubt much more than an hour meeting after lunch was devoted to it.

[scmadsen]

I think we all know that on some level, but we try and make it deeper, to give it more meaning...by coming up with reasons for why things happened. We are attached to Liara, and to the story...ME1 did that to us...were the story as bad as it is, in ME2...we wouldn't of cared about ME1 I think.

I agree that the Shepard from ME1, would of likely first ripped EDI out of the ship, then shot the Cerberus officers, and put the crew off the ship somewhere, the Paragon thing to do, rather then murder them...but perhaps Renegade might of just spaced the lot of them. Then going back to the Alliance, demanding Ashley/Kaidan return..as well as anyone still alive from the old crew. Liara would of been dragged, kicking and screaming out of that office if needed, and taken back to the Normandy, where she and Shepard would find and then kill the Shadow Broker, then go hunt the Collectors.

Modifié par scmadsen, 27 avril 2010 - 04:16 .

[Goodwood]

While I agree that the overall "campaign" is a pretty flimsy, it could certainly be worse, and it's tolerable enough that the rest of the improvements make up for a lot of ground. I like that as a FemShep, I can talk to (most) of the "female LIs" without being forced down a romance path I didn't want to even start (*cough*Kaiden*cough*), and the crew is much more diverse than the original cast. Could BioWare have done things better? Certainly -- no one is perfect, after all -- but what can we do aside from continuing to lean on them and tell them what we think could do better.



What's the harm in speculating about character intentions? Nothing, really, except when those speculations defy what is established about those characters (fanfic aside). Yes, BioWare have put themselves into something of a corner, but part of me can't wait to see how they attempt to get out of it.

[Nozybidaj]

scmadsen wrote...

I think we all know that on some level, but we try and make it deeper, to give it more meaning...by coming up with reasons for why things happened. We are attached to Liara, and to the story...ME1 did that to us...were the story as bad as it is, in ME2...we wouldn't of cared about ME1 I think.

I agree that the Shepard from ME1, would of likely first ripped EDI out of the ship, then shot the Cerberus officers, and put the crew off the ship somewhere, the Paragon thing to do, rather then murder them...but perhaps Renegade might of just spaced the lot of them. Then going back to the Alliance, demanding Ashley/Kaidan return..as well as anyone still alive from the old crew. Liara would of been dragged, kicking and screaming out of that office if needed, and taken back to the Normandy, where she and Shepard would kill the Shadow Broker, then go hunt the Collectors.

Exactly.  Aside from Tali and Garrus everyone else from the old squad is sooooo mischaracterized (including Shepard himself) that I am actually extremely pleased to hear the news that ME3 will be "stand alone".  If it allows me to ignore ME2 as much as ME2 ignored ME1 there may just be hope for ME3 yet.

[Goodwood]

Nozybidaj wrote...

scmadsen wrote...

I think we all know that on some level, but we try and make it deeper, to give it more meaning...by coming up with reasons for why things happened. We are attached to Liara, and to the story...ME1 did that to us...were the story as bad as it is, in ME2...we wouldn't of cared about ME1 I think.

I agree that the Shepard from ME1, would of likely first ripped EDI out of the ship, then shot the Cerberus officers, and put the crew off the ship somewhere, the Paragon thing to do, rather then murder them...but perhaps Renegade might of just spaced the lot of them. Then going back to the Alliance, demanding Ashley/Kaidan return..as well as anyone still alive from the old crew. Liara would of been dragged, kicking and screaming out of that office if needed, and taken back to the Normandy, where she and Shepard would kill the Shadow Broker, then go hunt the Collectors.

Exactly.  Aside from Tali and Garrus everyone else from the old squad is sooooo mischaracterized (including Shepard himself) that I am actually extremely pleased to hear the news that ME3 will be "stand alone".  If it allows me to ignore ME2 as much as ME2 ignored ME1 there may just be hope for ME3 yet.

How is this news? I never expected ME3 to somehow "attach" to ME2 in any way; it would have been extremely awkward for ME2 to similarly latch onto ME1, so why would they try that with the last "episode"? Expansion pack for ME2 with some post suicide mission action would be nice, but that's as far as it should go.

ME2 had to have some accessability to new players, you know.

[Nozybidaj]

Goodwood wrote...

What's the harm in speculating about character intentions?

None I suppose, but I hate to see the folks in this thread get themselves all excited about an expansion we don't even know is being developed yet and even if it is I sincerely doubt will in any way shape or form live up to the expectations being set for it in this thread. 

Liara fans have been kicked around enough already, I'd hate to see another disappointment on the scale of ME2.  Given how I think the expansion, if there ever is one, is going to turn out, I'm just trying to help folks keep their expectations in perspective of what we've been given so far.

[Sunnie]

scmadsen wrote...

I think we all know that on some level, but we try and make it deeper, to give it more meaning...by coming up with reasons for why things happened. We are attached to Liara, and to the story...ME1 did that to us...were the story as bad as it is, in ME2...we wouldn't of cared about ME1 I think.

I agree that the Shepard from ME1, would of likely first ripped EDI out of the ship, then shot the Cerberus officers, and put the crew off the ship somewhere, the Paragon thing to do, rather then murder them...but perhaps Renegade might of just spaced the lot of them. Then going back to the Alliance, demanding Ashley/Kaidan return..as well as anyone still alive from the old crew. Liara would of been dragged, kicking and screaming out of that office if needed, and taken back to the Normandy, where she and Shepard would find and then kill the Shadow Broker, then go hunt the Collectors.

Very much this. This is about exactly what I wanted to do at every turn on my forst playthrough. I was so disapointed. And when I got to Illium and ran straight to Liara's office I was stunned. I had to quit playing for a couple hours while I calmed down. ME1 left me with high expectations, expectations that were crushed with ME2. Me of all people should not have been surprised and expected it, I have seen it all to often in my own back yard, but I didn't, and I was, I was naive. I won't be making that error again, I will go into ME3 expecting nothing, that way what ever they do, I won't be too surprised.

[Nozybidaj]

Goodwood wrote...

How is this news? I never expected ME3 to somehow "attach" to ME2 in any way; it would have been extremely awkward for ME2 to similarly latch onto ME1, so why would they try that with the last "episode"? Expansion pack for ME2 with some post suicide mission action would be nice, but that's as far as it should go.

ME2 had to have some accessability to new players, you know.

/smacksforehead  Sorry, but really?  Expecting ME2 to continue the story started in ME1 was too much and unaccesabile to new players?  Wow.

[Goodwood]

Nozybidaj wrote...

Goodwood wrote...

How is this news? I never expected ME3 to somehow "attach" to ME2 in any way; it would have been extremely awkward for ME2 to similarly latch onto ME1, so why would they try that with the last "episode"? Expansion pack for ME2 with some post suicide mission action would be nice, but that's as far as it should go.

ME2 had to have some accessability to new players, you know.

/smacksforehead  Sorry, but really?  Expecting ME2 to continue the story started in ME1 was too much and unaccesabile to new players?  Wow.

Okay, I get what you're saying. I thought you'd meant that ME3 would be literally a "stand alone" title and not install itself onto ME2 as a continuation. Sorry about that -- blond moment there -- even though I'm not blond.

In any case, I started a "new character" for ME2 once and was shocked to learn the "default" choices that carried over. It was almost as though they'd asked Shandepared to pick the "best options" for new players. Shame on me.

[Goodwood]

Sunnie22 wrote...

scmadsen wrote...

I think we all know that on some level, but we try and make it deeper, to give it more meaning...by coming up with reasons for why things happened. We are attached to Liara, and to the story...ME1 did that to us...were the story as bad as it is, in ME2...we wouldn't of cared about ME1 I think.

I agree that the Shepard from ME1, would of likely first ripped EDI out of the ship, then shot the Cerberus officers, and put the crew off the ship somewhere, the Paragon thing to do, rather then murder them...but perhaps Renegade might of just spaced the lot of them. Then going back to the Alliance, demanding Ashley/Kaidan return..as well as anyone still alive from the old crew. Liara would of been dragged, kicking and screaming out of that office if needed, and taken back to the Normandy, where she and Shepard would find and then kill the Shadow Broker, then go hunt the Collectors.

Very much this. This is about exactly what I wanted to do at every turn on my forst playthrough. I was so disapointed. And when I got to Illium and ran straight to Liara's office I was stunned. I had to quit playing for a couple hours while I calmed down. ME1 left me with high expectations, expectations that were crushed with ME2. Me of all people should not have been surprised and expected it, I have seen it all to often in my own back yard, but I didn't, and I was, I was naive. I won't be making that error again, I will go into ME3 expecting nothing, that way what ever they do, I won't be too surprised.

I went into ME2 with as few expectations as possible (staying away from the media hype for the few months prior to getting it helped), and was still hit with similar feelings to yours. Didn't make me stop playing, and admittedly there was a heavy dose of awesomeness-induced plot rationalization going on...but yeah. My heart aches for Liara...

Modifié par Goodwood, 27 avril 2010 - 04:31 .

[JaylaClark]

Nozybidaj wrote...

scmadsen wrote...

I think we all know that on some level, but we try and make it deeper, to give it more meaning...by coming up with reasons for why things happened. We are attached to Liara, and to the story...ME1 did that to us...were the story as bad as it is, in ME2...we wouldn't of cared about ME1 I think.

I agree that the Shepard from ME1, would of likely first ripped EDI out of the ship, then shot the Cerberus officers, and put the crew off the ship somewhere, the Paragon thing to do, rather then murder them...but perhaps Renegade might of just spaced the lot of them. Then going back to the Alliance, demanding Ashley/Kaidan return..as well as anyone still alive from the old crew. Liara would of been dragged, kicking and screaming out of that office if needed, and taken back to the Normandy, where she and Shepard would kill the Shadow Broker, then go hunt the Collectors.

Exactly.  Aside from Tali and Garrus everyone else from the old squad is sooooo mischaracterized (including Shepard himself) that I am actually extremely pleased to hear the news that ME3 will be "stand alone".  If it allows me to ignore ME2 as much as ME2 ignored ME1 there may just be hope for ME3 yet.

Though you may think it pains me to say it, a conditional 'this' -- if you're right that they can't or won't spackle over the giant holes in the story, then they should just do a quick handwave of how ME3 is so much different than ME2 and get on with it.

[Goodwood]

I'm still not entirely certain what they mean by "stand alone".