50907 réponses à ce sujet

[Marcin K]

Asheer_Khan wrote...

Seriously... if i would have in off money i would buy from EA every single rights to Mass Effect and pass them to developer who have knowledge how to create proper game trilogy...

i assume most of us would....
pic time:

as i have to go for few hours soon i'll post new pic for next page in advance=]

Modifié par Marcin R, 28 avril 2010 - 09:42 .

[Goodwood]

Just a bump-up for my recent letter, with the first letter I wrote from Liara attached:

Liara T'Soni wrote:

Shepard,

Thank you for your assistance on Illium. It's been a while since
we caught Nyxeris, and things are starting to calm down; I got
the last of the surveilance devices out of my office only last night.
I truly cannot tell you how much of a relief it was to see you again;
it saddens me that it couldn't be under better circumstances, but
we both know that some things are beyond all our control. The joy
at seeing you again, alive and whole, was almost overwhelming.
Now that I'm (relatively) secure here, hopefully I can explain myself
to you properly.

A month after the destruction of the Normandy, I received word that
someone had found your body, and was intending to sell it to the
Collectors. The contact I mentioned during our visits was the key;
he worked as a double-agent for the Shadow Broker and Cerberus.
A drell named Feron, he helped me to locate your body and wrest it
from the Shadow Broker just as this...thing...showed up to collect it.
In the fight that ensued, Feron and I became separated; while I tried
to get away with your body, he held the Broker's enforcers off long
enough for me to make a break for our ship. I still don't know what
they did with him...part of me hopes he is alive somewhere, but that
hope is dimming. Regardless, I know that the Shadow Broker does
business with the Collectors. Perhaps when your mission is done,
we can work together again to bring him down.

As I said, it was good to see you again, and I am glad at least that
Tali and Garrus are still with you. I would tell you to be cautious about
Miranda, but you've probably figured out already whether or not she is
to be trusted. I hope she is -- she played a large part in bringing you
back to me. That sounds so selfish to hear it aloud. Maybe someday
soon we will be able to embrace one another again, and all will be
made clear. Untill then, may the Goddess look kindly upon your journey.

Liara T'Soni

P.S.: I"ve included a letter I wrote to you shortly after I delivered you to
Cerberus. Hopefully it will help to explain things a bit more.

Liara T'Soni wrote...

Shepard,

I don't know if you'll ever see this letter, but it just had to be written.
As I write, the Cerberus agents are loading your coffin into their ship,
to what destination I can only speculate. They say they can rebuild
you, remake you into the woman you once were. Only time will tell if
this is just one of their schemes; I cannot imagine what they may try
to do to you, or if what they promise is even possible.

The Goddess was kind to me when She brought you into my life.
Before then, there was only the work; I was isolated, buried in the
past, focused on rooting out the mysteries of the Protheans and
those who came before. I spent my time elbow-deep in the dust of
civilizations, the tedium interrupted only occasionally by a new find,
or the appearance of pirates, mercenaries, or the occasional outlaw
archeologist. Then, suddenly, you sprang headfirst into my life, guns
blazing, willing to kill and die to save me from being dragged off to
who knew what fate Saren or my mother may have intended for me.
You opened your ship to me, made me a part of your crew, but it was
more than that. You didn't just probe me for information and cast me
aside, you extended an offer of friendship.

I considered myself barely more than a child, but you treated me as
an equal; what is more, you opened me to the wider galaxy. It was
through our hunt for Saren and the Conduit that you helped me piece
together the meaning of my life. You helped me to experience what it
meant to live in the present, instead of sifting through the leavings of
the ancient ones. And more importantly, you showed me how to fight
for the future of all. Even when I was at my lowest, after Benezia's
death, you were there for me, guiding me, helping me to remember
the woman she once was, a caring and devoted person. I knew that
I must know you, help you if I could, be there at your side no matter
what might occur. When the worst happened, and I was not by your
side, it nearly broke me. That was why I did what I did, why I nearly
threw away everything for this one last chance to prove how much
you meant to me. I loved...I love you. I can never let you go. I hope you
can forgive me for doing this; I remember how hard you fought to halt
the experiments being undertaken by Cerberus. Those memories are
omnipresent, haunting me, mocking me for what I have done.

If you survive, if they give you this second chance, I hope that you can
forgive me. I have no one else to seek solace with, no one else who is
capable of understanding what we went through.

Modifié par Goodwood, 28 avril 2010 - 11:02 .

[Marcin K]

Goodwood wrote...

Just a bump-up for my recent letter, with the first letter I wrote from Liara attached:
*snip*

nice letters indeed:wizard:

[morrie23]

Good work Goodwood! You managed to capture Liara perfectly. I so wish something like this was in game.

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

Great work goodwood.



What a different cameo it could have been if we had something like that in the game.



Sadly the priority was just preventing Liara from joining, not exploring why and letting Liaras feeling really be fleshed out properly in an in depth manner.

[morrie23]

Indeed Dink, how hard would it of been to include an email like Goodwoods? It would of added some much needed depth to the encounter, even if the rest of the scenes on Illium were left the same (i.e. poor).

[Erinlana]

Hey guys !



Another piece of fanart since i just woke up >.<



I didn't create the background i just cut & added images that i liked and added text heh



couldnt get a better picture of femshep kissing Liara >.<



anyways..

[Erinlana]

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...

FFS, do I actually have to spell it out?

Here is what we're flat out told, or is stated in game:

-Liara expresses desire to go with Shepard again, and reacts with regret and remorse that she can't. That's in there, full stop.

-When Liara opens up emotionally at last, and reveals her true feelings as to just what she feels about Shepard, it shows just how deeply she cares, how much Shepard means to her, what's driving her and what her real motives are. That kind of love and devotion then obviously entails other facets to Liara's feelings, namely concern for Shepard's wellbeing, what Shepard thinks of her, her guilt for everything that's happened.

Now, we've established that Liara wants to go with Shepard. We've established that she still cares deeply about Shepard, and his or her wellbeing. Logic then dictates that Liara does care for how the mission will go, and that Shepard will survive. She acknowledges the mission, after all. "Now you're gunning for the Collectors with Cerberus." She's aware of it's existence. Just because Liara doesn't mention the suicide mission when she opens up, doesn't mean that she doesn't care. Liara showing she cares for Shepard deeply as she does means that it covers all facets of Shepard's current situation, and that includes the suicide mission. But just because the suicide mission is mentioned in the context of when Liara does show how much she cares, that means she doesn't show concern? No, it means exactly what I am saying. That Liara opening up and showing just how much Shepard means to her is sufficient enough that she cares for Shepard incredibly, and that covers everything else that entails, including the suicide mission and Shepard's welfare. Just because Liara doesn't mention the suicide mission during the "Because I couldn't let you go" dialogue path, doesn't mean that she doesn't care. Hell, Liara doesn't express any worry that Shepard's head will fall off. Does that mean she doesn't care about that happening? No, not at all.

Liara shows deep care and feelings for Shepard when she opens up. Simple freaking logic dictates that care for Shepard's welfare and wellbeing is covered in that. It's not hard to figure out.

Really, your criticism can be applied to any NPC. When Ashley and Kaidan show up, they seem more concerned about Shepard working for Cerberus than the mission at hand. The suicide mission is never brought up. All we get is a vague and ambiguous "So long, Commander. Good luck." No mention of the suicide mission at all. Your logic dictates that Ash and Kaidan don't care about Shepard's welfare either. Is that the case? No, of course not. Furthermore, their follow up emails make no mention of the suicide mission either. It's yet again more anxiety over Shepard working for Cerberus. Again, your logic would dictate that they don't care whether Shepard lives or dies.

You can also apply in to Anderson, Shepard's mentor. The only time he ever shows any concern for Shepard personally, never mentions the suicide mission, never brings up that Shepard could die. Does that mean he doesn't care? No, of course not. He cares about the fate and welfare of his protege. Just because the suicide mission isn't mentioned, doesn't mean he doesn't care whether Shepard lives or dies. If the person, be it Liara, Anderson, Ashley, Kaidan or Wrex shows they care about Shepard, then simple freaking logic dictates that they care about whether Shepard lives or dies. It doesn't have to be spelled out, or rammed down your throat.

Also, the poor writing I criticise is aspects of Redemption that cause certain people to misconstrue Liara's motives, and what's driving her, things that are clearly displayed in ME2. There are definitely aspects of the writing of Liara's cameo and her ME2 scenes to criticise, yes. Whether Liara cares or not is certainly not one of them.

I agree Liara does show true concern about shephards mission and thier well being , she does take into account that you are working for cerberus but it doesn't seem to borther her , or atleast i didn't detect anything like that .

But it shows Liara has strong feeling's still for shephard its just a shame she can't come

[OrbitalWings]

Goodwood wrote...

After looking over your otherwise very nice image and talking about it with a friend of mine who draws comics (not for a living, sadly), there are a few things I'd like to point out. Please bear in mind that these are meant to be constructive comments, and not just some talentless hack takin' the ******...

• First of all, you ought to think about proportions. Even if you don't do actual linework for the image, at least sketch out your figures beforehand, and make sure they conform to basic anatomy as we know it.
• Second, because your drawing lacks linework, it really doesn't have that much "mass", which is ironic considering this is Mass Effect. In comic books, artists use linework in addition to shading to establish depth of shape. This is also how you define things like muscle tone and facial features.
• Third...you may want to think about your character a bit more. Now, don't take this the wrong way, but your Shepard basically looks like Cloud from FF7 with boobs tacked on (the outfit is even vaguely similar to something from an FF game)
• Last, while this is indeed a touching pose with lots of...um...appeal, you might want to think about why it was necessary to have Shepard's left hand positioned on Liara's right breast. I'm also wondering why it looks like Shepard is attempting to "nutshot" Liara.

That's pretty much it from my end. Please, remember that these comments are intended to help you, not to troll. You did an excellent job on Liara's face; that smile is definitely a nice touch. Her outfit is pretty interesting, almost a "formal dress" version of her ME1 scientist garb. The background was also appropriate, and, for the most part, the shading is pretty good and, proportions aside, consistant.

Anyway, good luck with your future work!

• I did actually do complete linework for the image - I always do - I even posted it on this thread a while back. As far as I could tell from that, the anatomy was fine.
• As for the lack of linework in the finished product - I choose not to use it. I don't care if the ME Comics use it - it's my own art style and I prefer the more realistic shading style I've spent years developing.
• A lot of these comparisons seem to come from her hair - I've drawn Freya loads of times now - why does one pic with her hair styled like that make it a point worth noting? So what - she looks like she's an FF character in this one picture - this isn't how she usually looks.
• As for why it was neccesary - because Freya Shepard is rather cheeky, and is getting a bit carried away while dancing with her lover

Does she look so much like a Final Fantasy character here?

[OrbitalWings]

First 2 stages of development - for those interested...

[Nozybidaj]

Asheer_Khan wrote...

Seriously... if i would have in off money i would buy from EA every single rights to Mass Effect and pass them to developer who have knowledge how to create proper game trilogy...

Nah, I'd stick with BW and force them to do a redo as a sort of penance for thinking ME2 was good to begin with.  Day 1 on the job would involve purging the office of all ME3 materials, time to start over again on ME2 and do it right this time.

[Nozybidaj]

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...

Nozy, I could actually see you posting a huge picture of Liara on the BW office wall, with the tagline "Do Liara justice, or don't do her at all."

Can you see me standing over Mac's desk with a whip in one hand and a coffee cup in the other while he rewrites ME2?  Yeah...

[Ulathar]

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...

FFS, do I actually have to spell it out?

Here is what we're flat out told, or is stated in game:

-Liara expresses desire to go with Shepard again, and reacts with regret and remorse that she can't. That's in there, full stop.

-When Liara opens up emotionally at last, and reveals her true feelings as to just what she feels about Shepard, it shows just how deeply she cares, how much Shepard means to her, what's driving her and what her real motives are. That kind of love and devotion then obviously entails other facets to Liara's feelings, namely concern for Shepard's wellbeing, what Shepard thinks of her, her guilt for everything that's happened.

Now, we've established that Liara wants to go with Shepard. We've established that she still cares deeply about Shepard, and his or her wellbeing. Logic then dictates that Liara does care for how the mission will go, and that Shepard will survive. She acknowledges the mission, after all. "Now you're gunning for the Collectors with Cerberus." She's aware of it's existence. Just because Liara doesn't mention the suicide mission when she opens up, doesn't mean that she doesn't care. Liara showing she cares for Shepard deeply as she does means that it covers all facets of Shepard's current situation, and that includes the suicide mission. But just because the suicide mission is mentioned in the context of when Liara does show how much she cares, that means she doesn't show concern? No, it means exactly what I am saying. That Liara opening up and showing just how much Shepard means to her is sufficient enough that she cares for Shepard incredibly, and that covers everything else that entails, including the suicide mission and Shepard's welfare. Just because Liara doesn't mention the suicide mission during the "Because I couldn't let you go" dialogue path, doesn't mean that she doesn't care. Hell, Liara doesn't express any worry that Shepard's head will fall off. Does that mean she doesn't care about that happening? No, not at all.

Liara shows deep care and feelings for Shepard when she opens up. Simple freaking logic dictates that care for Shepard's welfare and wellbeing is covered in that. It's not hard to figure out.

Really, your criticism can be applied to any NPC. When Ashley and Kaidan show up, they seem more concerned about Shepard working for Cerberus than the mission at hand. The suicide mission is never brought up. All we get is a vague and ambiguous "So long, Commander. Good luck." No mention of the suicide mission at all. Your logic dictates that Ash and Kaidan don't care about Shepard's welfare either. Is that the case? No, of course not. Furthermore, their follow up emails make no mention of the suicide mission either. It's yet again more anxiety over Shepard working for Cerberus. Again, your logic would dictate that they don't care whether Shepard lives or dies.

You can also apply in to Anderson, Shepard's mentor. The only time he ever shows any concern for Shepard personally, never mentions the suicide mission, never brings up that Shepard could die. Does that mean he doesn't care? No, of course not. He cares about the fate and welfare of his protege. Just because the suicide mission isn't mentioned, doesn't mean he doesn't care whether Shepard lives or dies. If the person, be it Liara, Anderson, Ashley, Kaidan or Wrex shows they care about Shepard, then simple freaking logic dictates that they care about whether Shepard lives or dies. It doesn't have to be spelled out, or rammed down your throat.

Also, the poor writing I criticise is aspects of Redemption that cause certain people to misconstrue Liara's motives, and what's driving her, things that are clearly displayed in ME2. There are definitely aspects of the writing of Liara's cameo and her ME2 scenes to criticise, yes. Whether Liara cares or not is certainly not one of them.

I agree with your view of things. Of course it's just speculation but I think she doesn't mention the suicide mission for 1 reason.....which would imo make sense...

She briefly opened up and then put her facade back on. Talking about Shepards possible death (after just getting him back, so to speak) would be too much for her. So she tries to ignore it...she still thinks about it, though, imo.
I can only imagine how hard it must be for her to actually maintain her "cover" if you want to call it that in a situation like this. She's an emotional person, imo, dispite being a scientist. I bet she only saw one option and that is to leave the emotions out and be all business. She "failed" of course with her opening up and all, but quickly regained "control". I believe that supports my theory.

This only applies if you want to make sense out of it....it may still be just bad writing <_<

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...

FFS, do I actually have to spell it out?

Here is what we're flat out told, or is stated in game:

-Liara expresses desire to go with Shepard again, and reacts with regret and remorse that she can't. That's in there, full stop.

Which has nothing to do with the suicide mission.

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...

-When Liara opens up emotionally at last, and reveals her true feelings as to just what she feels about Shepard, it shows just how deeply she cares, how much Shepard means to her, what's driving her and what her real motives are. That kind of love and devotion then obviously entails other facets to Liara's feelings, namely concern for Shepard's wellbeing, what Shepard thinks of her, her guilt for everything that's happened.

90% of that is biased fan drivel. The cameo is written as ambiguous. You can suggest Liara is speaking out of love for Shepard, regardless of if its returned, but because its also written for those who didnt romance, its left at "strong feelings". When Liara opening up means very little to many of the fans who witness it, you cant use it as a crutch to support the 100% absent romance dialogue.

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...
Now, we've established that Liara wants to go with Shepard.

Stop right there - no we havent. Weve established Liara ACKNOWLEDGES it would be nice to go with Shepard and she wishes she could, but she must continue her "hunt". That is what she WANTS TO DO. She doesn’t WANT to join up with Shepard. Shes “busy” and “the galaxy doesn’t work that way”.

Accept it.

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...
Really, your criticism can be applied to any NPC. When Ashley and Kaidan show up, they seem more concerned about Shepard working for Cerberus than the mission at hand.

Thats true. Im not sure if the e-mail recognises it in terms of "come back alive", but on Horizon, they dont care about Sheaprds explanation or what Shepard is going through, its just "your with cerberus?" They don’t care what odds Shepard is going off to face.

The ME1 Lis cameos are written as selfish in this regard. Its probably Biowares way of continuing their crappy “dark second act” and trying to drive old fans into the arms of their newer, crappy Lis.

Thats the Ash/Kai equivalent of what were discussing here though: The reasons behind their removal/absence from the squad overriding the fact of just what they are leaving Shepard to - the suicide mission.

Now, Im going to lay it out for you. First, leave off this "Liara doesnt care" crap. Once again in your anxiousness youve taken my point to the utter extreme. I am not saying Liara callously doesnt care about Shepards wellbeing anymore. Im saying there is no direct comment made about the fact that Shepard is going on this suicide mission, and that without it, Liaras character suffers heavily. In regards to that specific mission, YES LIARA DOESNT APPEAR TO CARE BECAUSE THERE IS NOTHING WRITTEN. Its all very good typing a load of made up fan drivel about Liara feelings, but none of that is actually taking something written in game, which is ultimately what we have to rely on.

This is pointless now. Ive pointed out the fact that at no stage does Liara specifically show any concern about Shepard heading off to a suicide mission. You have denied the suicide missions severity, which is directly contradicted plenty of times in game by the characters. You have also pulled out a load of nonsense of "well she sounds like she cares during this completely unrelated bit of dialogue, so she MUST care deep down about Shepard on the suicide mission", which again is contradicted in game, because Liara completely ignores the severity of the mission and doesnt even bring it up, only that Shepard is "with cerberus".

There is no use arguing this further, with the original point that started this, you are flat out wrong. Deny it all you want, but during Liaras entire cameo she expresses no direct concern for Shepards safety when about to tackle a mission that is a complete unknown, regarded by many as a one way trip, against a foe that has already killed Shepard once.

Until Liara is given a backtracking comment on it, this part of her character, something that should be there (particuarly if you romanced her) is absent. Her character is worse off because of it. Dont bother responding any further. Ive indulged this biased denial long enough. Im more interested in what Liaras actual content says about the character than letting my own views cloud the issue, because unlike you I can accept that in ME2, Liara is a badly written character and therefore a bad character. Filling in endless blanks with biased Liarafan wishful thinking isnt going to make things better. Actually addressing these screw ups in the future, and have Liaras character react to them, rather than gloss over them is the way to go.

She didn’t once express concern Shepard was headed for a potential death on this suicide mission. We could either do it your way,  and make up crap that she “logically and obviously cared all along”. Or instead, we could do it my way, and hope instead something is brought up in future to explain this lapse in sanity where the Bioware writers thought “ttyl” would be a good end point to the conversation when Shepard is potentially going to die by the end game…. (This point only further emphasises the disconnected nature of ME2 actually, since its all contained in ME2, and the writing is hard to believe because of it.)

Modifié par Dinkamus_Littlelog, 28 avril 2010 - 01:13 .

[bjdbwea]

No, it is just bad writing. It has to be said or shown. Emotions and feelings too. In fact in movies or games they're often a bit exaggerated to make the point, that's a valid tool of telling the story. If everyone just sits there like this , it's much worse. It would be called bad writing and bad acting in a movie, and it's exactly that in a game too.

[Ulathar]

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...

That's actually a very good and interesting way of looking at it, Baal. Liara already suffered badly enough when Shepard died before. Perhaps she's avoiding it because she can't bear to admit to herself that she may lose Shepard again? That's its just too much pain to dwell on? She doesn't want to admit it to herself? She's so fearful of losing Shepard again, that she doesn't want to acknowledge it or admit it to herself.

Yes that is how I see it. I think we also have to take into account that you returned from the dead...I don't know the time frame of ME2 but the (short) time you spent on Illium - and especially short with her - she may not even fully realize that you're actually back. The emotions would be so overwhelming at that point.....but how can she really hope for a future with you again when you are about to go on a suicide mission.....
Loosing you again? Going through all of that again? No wonder she'd try to burry herself in work and be all business - even with you.
The only really dumb thing to do....is exactly what Shepard does though.....not even trying to figure it out or even asking about it (but I think we've already covered Shepard's actions enough)

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...

That's actually a very good and interesting way of looking at it, Baal. Liara already suffered badly enough when Shepard died before. Perhaps she's avoiding it because she can't bear to admit to herself that she may lose Shepard again? That's its just too much pain to dwell on? She doesn't want to admit it to herself? She's so fearful of losing Shepard again, that she doesn't want to acknowledge it or admit it to herself.

LET, thats a point you and I had an argument over only just recently.

I proposd Liara acted the way she did in ME2 because she couldnt face the fact of what Shepard was heading into, and was very likely to lose him again.

Of course, you were being just as stubborn and misrepresentative of my viewpoint then as you are now, forcing me to adopt the same tone I have done here.

If Id have known, Id have just got Baal to voice my opinion originally.