50907 réponses à ce sujet

[Ulathar]

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...

I can't believe this whole point is being debated though. Why isn't it obvious that Ashley, Kaidan and Liara's respective concern for what happens to Shepard in the suicide mission covered in the dialogue when they all show that they care for Shepard, and that the character means so much to them?

I see a problem there. Of course for us, as in her fans, it's more or less obvious. But for the usual crowd out there? It's like bjdbwea said, it needs to be spoken like in a movie. This isn't a book where we can read about the feelings of a character. If they don't outright say it, it's all up to interpretation and that can vary.....
Interpretation - therein lies the problem.

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...

Why is it so hard to grasp that Liara opening up, showing she cares for Shepard and has deep feelings for him and her, and commenting on the suicide mission are not mutually exclusive? It's not that hard to get your head round, really. She doesn't need to comment on the severity of the suicide mission because we've just been shown how she still cares for Shepard deeply, and very much has strong feelings. A comment on the mission is not required.

One easily missed "I gave you to cerberus.... because I couldnt let you go" isnt going to rectify the fact that at no point in the conversation is that same "not likely to return from this mission" mentality brought up. Not without a head leap of distorted logic.

Her cameo covers a few things:

1. Her vendetta against the Shadow Broker.

2. Why she cant join (see above).

3. Her reasons - Feron and Shepard almost being sold by the SB to the collectors.

Aside from one awkward kiss and "I couldnt let you go" that everyone sees, it doesnt cover Liaras feelings. Her feelings towards Shepard, and her feelings towards the fact that no sooner is Shepard back from the dead, hes leaping into the jaws of death again.

Rather than ignore that and say "OF COURSE SHE CARES!" Id rather see something like "She is ignoring everything, pushing Shepard away, and concentrating on finding the Shadow Broker BECAUSE Shepard is likely to go and get killed again".

If you go your way, future Liara content wont be acknowledging this blunders in the cameo. The question of why the suicide mission and Shepard being seperated from Liara once again will be answered with "She never doubted he would survive, and she cared deeply about his chances, its just it was never shown".

Also, does it really matter if Liara doesn't mention the suicide mission when she expresses a desire to go with Shepard? The point still stands that she does express a desire to, and that she's remorseful and regretful that she can't. We've been over the reasons as to why Liara is hunting the Shadow Broker and why she feels it a necessity, and they're all very sympathetic and understandable.

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...
Also, saying Ashley and Kaidan don't care about the suicide mission is daft in the extreme. Like with Liara, just because they don't actually reference the suicide mission, doesn't mean they don't care for Shepard's welfare. Does every single character have to flat out state it in order for you to grasp it?

Its not daft in the extreme. Whats daft in the extreme is you ignoring the fact that we can only ultimately go on what we are given (particularly with this "third person narrative" that is Mass Effect now). If this were a true roleplaying game leaving plenty of blanks, I could agree with filling in huge gaps with your own interpretation.

It isnt a true roleplaying game though, and not once do Ash, Kai or Liara express fear or concern that Shepard could very likely be killed on the mission.

Once again I say, rather than gloss over it in your fashion, future dialogue has them admit to being afraid for Shepard, and hoping they would return safe. Then the amazingly idiotic move of having their cameos go by ignoring the suicide mission is fixed.

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...
I can't believe this whole point is being debated though. Why isn't it obvious that Ashley, Kaidan and Liara's respective concern for what happens to Shepard in the suicide mission covered in the dialogue when they all show that they care for Shepard, and that the character means so much to them?

Jesus H christ LET. You do realise the fact that they care for Shepard (WHICH IM NOT DEBATING) only further emphasises WHY THEY SHOULD HAVE SAID SOMETHING. Failing that, they should have a good reason why they didnt say something: i.e. "I couldnt bear to think about you going on that mission because I was so scared of losing you again".

Do you get it now!?

[OrbitalWings]

For the love of god, can't we all just say it's open to interpretation and leave it at that?

All this thread has been for the last few days is heated arguments and debates - can't we just agree to disagree and move on?

We're all fans of Liara, afterall. I'd love to discuss aspects of the character and so forth, but at the moment things are just far too hostile, whatever faux-politeness it's dressed up in.

Modifié par Metal-Dragon-Kiryu, 28 avril 2010 - 01:43 .

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...

I never contested or debunked that point, though. I always thought it was a good theory.

What I did have a problem with is that "Liara cares more about the Shadow Broker than Shepard now" cobblers you were spouting.

She does. She sees tracking down the Shadow Broker and Feron as a higher priority than joining up with Shepard.

That doesnt mean she doesnt care about Shepard (unless you LET, and that kind of leap is par for the course). It means that Liara was quite content to have Shepard run along and do the suicide mission while she carried on searching for the SB.

She flat out tells you this in game: "I would like to join up with you, but I cant, Im busy."

Thats what they had Miranda in the comic telegraphing a pathetic attempt to justify the cameo as "You do what you want to do, and stay out of ME2."

I doubt you were around at that point LET, but when the crappy cameo roles were announced on the old forums, there was no shortage of people saying "Give them their own lives, their own goals. They seem more real that way."

Thats what Bioware did, and us ME1 LI fans had to endure the galling experience of enduring the game without them.

I only hope those hypocrites who probably now spout "ME2 squadmates as squadmates for ME3" get whats coming to them when the ME2 squad are sent off to "do their own thing".

[Goodwood]

Metal-Dragon-Kiryu wrote...

For the love of god, can't we all just say it's open to interpretation and leave it at that?

All this thread has been for the last few days is heated arguments and debates - can't we just agree to disagree and move on?

We're all fans of Liara, afterall. I'd love to discuss aspects of the character and so forth, but at the moment things are just far too hostile, whatever faux-politeness it's dressed up in.

QFT.

Seriously, guys and gals. Before the mods come in with asbestos suits and fire retardant...

[morrie23]

Indeed we don't want to bring down the wrath of Woo, he's already told the Tali thread to behave recently.

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...

Oh for fcuk's sake.

You've just freaking deconstructed your own argument in one small paragraph. They don't need to directly mention the suicide mission, because it's covered in the fact that all three of them obviously care for Shepard's wellbeing, and therefore his or her future chances of survival and coming home alive. It's not necessary for Ashley, Kaidan and Liara to mention the suicide mission directly. We're told pretty clearly that all three of them still care.

You're seeing it, but you just ain't getting it.

Yes of course, thats why people who care for eachother IGNORE highlighting risks ALL THE TIME - they think "Hang on, isnt it obvious I care already?"

Dont talk nonsense LET please.

Youd love it if things were as easy as saying "they care = no need to mention the impending suicide mission".

Sadly for you, I demand a bit more out of characters than that.

Or was Liara communcating her faith Shepard would survive/concern for his safety in a coded series of winks, and getting up out of the chair and sitting back in it?

Its been a common enough complaint for long enough now that Liara lets Shepard go on the suicide mission without a word of concern or support. When its pointed out how badly Liaras character comes across because of this, you throw your toys out of the pram.

Modifié par Dinkamus_Littlelog, 28 avril 2010 - 01:53 .

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

Sorry folks, I know you dont like intense back and forth debate over a point, but until LET and I start personally insulting eachother, Im not going to pretend there is a problem with this.



I know most people would prefer we spam pictures of Liara and smileys and talk all lovey dovey, but I think thats deliberately ignoring just how bad the ME2 cameo really is.

[Nozybidaj]

I wish they had just given her a short and to the point "reunion" along the lines of Ash/Kaidan and followed it up with an email. Her "role" in ME2 and the comic are pretty much garbage and just made a mess of the whole character. Sad to say but the less effort they had put in to her in ME2 the better off we would have been at this point.

[Ulathar]

This is the first time I quote myself, but I said it further up on this
page..........

Systemlord Baal wrote...

[...] it's all up to interpretation and that can vary.....
Interpretation - therein lies the problem.

[OrbitalWings]

Dinkamus_Littlelog wrote...

Sorry folks, I know you dont like intense back and forth debate over a point, but until LET and I start personally insulting eachother, Im not going to pretend there is a problem with this.

I know most people would prefer we spam pictures of Liara and smileys and talk all lovey dovey, but I think thats deliberately ignoring just how bad the ME2 cameo really is.

Actually, the effect this is having  - as justinnstuff said - is that it's stopping other people from posting. I know I haven't felt that welcome here since all this started - I've just dropped in with art and that's it.

Seriously - it may be Liara-related, but the attitude isn't exactly encouraging community spirit.

Modifié par Metal-Dragon-Kiryu, 28 avril 2010 - 01:58 .

[Nozybidaj]

Metal-Dragon-Kiryu wrote...

Seriously - it may be Liara-related, but the attitude isn't exactly encouraging community spirit.

Well, ME2 didn't exactly give us anything to "encourage community spirit".

While I appreciate the fanart and think it is great, we have entire pages of nothing in the thread but posting screenshots from ME1 that serve no purpose other than to bump the post count.  Of course if we didn't do those things we wouldn't have ANYTHING to talk about, so six of one half a dozen of the other I suppose.

[bjdbwea]

You need to calm down a bit. LET, you're not defending Liara, everyone agrees that the true Liara cares about Shepard, you're in effect defending BioWare's bad writing. "We don't have to say it, do we" is something they'd certainly bring in with an innocent face if they ever cared about gracing us with a response. So what if you think it's really not necessary, it certainly wouldn't have hurt either. And if you look at the big picture, spelling it out would at least have prevented some players from minterpreting her behaviour and from "cheating" on her, and the bigger the number of fans she retains, the better for you as well as any fan.

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

Okay folks, next time you spam pics and emoticons, you dont mind if I come in and tell you to cut it out do you? Because I dont know if youve noticed, but I dont tend to post when thats happening. it doesnt create a sense of a welcoming community spirit. I actually like it when something is being discussed extensively, even with how little there is to go on.

[Goodwood]

Nozybidaj wrote...

Metal-Dragon-Kiryu wrote...

Seriously - it may be Liara-related, but the attitude isn't exactly encouraging community spirit.

Well, ME2 didn't exactly give us anything to "encourage community spirit".

While I appreciate the fanart and think it is great, we have entire pages of nothing in the thread but posting screenshots from ME1 that serve no purpose other than to bump the post count.  Of course if we didn't do those things we wouldn't have ANYTHING to talk about, so six of one half a dozen of the other I suppose.

Hey, I'd rather have the nice screenshots, cool artwork, interesting tidbits of fanfic and what community spirit there is instead of a glorified chat thread. At least we actually talk about Liara most of the time.

Modifié par Goodwood, 28 avril 2010 - 02:04 .

[Nozybidaj]

bjdbwea wrote...

You need to calm down a bit. LET, you're not defending Liara, everyone agrees that the true Liara cares about Shepard, you're in effect defending BioWare's bad writing. "We don't have to say it, do we" is something they'd certainly bring in with an innocent face if they ever cared about gracing us with a response. So what if you think it's really not necessary, it certainly wouldn't have hurt either. And if you look at the big picture, spelling it out would at least have prevented some players from minterpreting her behaviour and from "cheating" on her, and the bigger the number of fans she retains, the better for you as well as any fan.

This is more or less my take on the whole thing.

[Dinkamus_Littlelog]

Nozybidaj wrote...

This is more or less my take on the whole thing.

Yeah, Im sure Bioware would love to excuse their laziness with crap like "ITZ HIDEN IN TEH SUBTEZTZORZ!!!!"