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[UrbanPhoenix]

jillyfae wrote...

UrbanPhoenix wrote...

Jade5233 wrote...

I'm getting this from the Wikia Mass Effect section
Kaidan was born in late 2151
BAaT was established in 2160
First L1 implants in 2163
Vyrnnus is hired for BAaT in 2166
2167 Kaidan gets one of the first L2 implants
Kaidan kills Vyrnnus in 2168

So he went to BAaT somewhere between the ages of 9-16 depending on if you had to have an implant in order to participate in BAaT
Any thoughts?

I got a question, if Kaidan got sent to BAaT because of his biotics, then got an implant later. Wouldn't that constitute that the amps are like a control device to fine tune the synchronization of a person's skill to control their biotics?

(trying to justify my fanfic )

There are obviously some sort of symptoms that allow biotics to be identified beyond showing up in a thorough medical exam, but it is strongly implied that there is no way to control said biotic impulses without implants in the neural-network. 

(Again, all based on inference and personal opinion.  They don't explain a lot of it in much detail.  And my memories from the books are really fuzzy, so I'm no longer sure which of my assumptions are based on actual events in canon somewhere, and which are just things I imagined made sense and stuck with.)

This!  Loop holes Bioware! Explain the Loopholes!

Edit: Since on the topic of his implants...

Modifié par UrbanPhoenix, 21 juillet 2010 - 06:27 .

[sagefic]

 

biotics are nifty. just my really deep, thoughtful opinion here.



tried again and again to get this screenshot with both of them glowing, but it never worked out. i sometimes miss the flickering barriers of me1.

edit: love that kaidan looks like he's looking at the camera.

Modifié par sagequeen, 21 juillet 2010 - 06:27 .

[jillyfae]

siriusrambles wrote...

jillyfae wrote...

They have said that for later implants. Probably part of the reason for the nasty side effects of the L2's, actually, that the subjects were so old in comparison. (I'm pretty sure it says somewhere about Project Ascension that they do the implant surgery around 12 or so, not that I can find the reference atm.)

maybe the reference you're referring to is the galactic codex booklet.  it states the optimal age of implantation is with the onset of puberty (around 12 years of age). 

Yes. That.  Thank you.

[JaerWolfe]

jillyfae wrote...



There are obviously some sort of symptoms that allow biotics to be identified beyond showing up in a thorough medical exam, but it is strongly implied that there is no way to control said biotic impulses without implants in the neural-network.



(Again, all based on inference and personal opinion. They don't explain a lot of it in much detail. And my memories from the books are really fuzzy, so I'm no longer sure which of my assumptions are based on actual events in canon somewhere, and which are just things I imagined made sense and stuck with.)

I presumed that the symptoms were a minor biotic ability...say strong emotion causing something to crash about a room or knock something over...but nothing that they had control over. Does that sound right? Or is this something that has never been clarified? I haven't read the books.

I just wondered how they identified the early human biotics at all if not for a physical manifestation of some sort of skill.

[Sialater]

JaerWolfe wrote...

jillyfae wrote...

There are obviously some sort of symptoms that allow biotics to be identified beyond showing up in a thorough medical exam, but it is strongly implied that there is no way to control said biotic impulses without implants in the neural-network.

(Again, all based on inference and personal opinion. They don't explain a lot of it in much detail. And my memories from the books are really fuzzy, so I'm no longer sure which of my assumptions are based on actual events in canon somewhere, and which are just things I imagined made sense and stuck with.)

I presumed that the symptoms were a minor biotic ability...say strong emotion causing something to crash about a room or knock something over...but nothing that they had control over. Does that sound right? Or is this something that has never been clarified? I haven't read the books.
I just wondered how they identified the early human biotics at all if not for a physical manifestation of some sort of skill.

I figure there's some manifestation, but on the level of spoonbending or "poltergeist" telekenesis, or in my Meghan Shepard's case, the biotic kick that killed her father.  The implants are what allow conscious control.  Hell, even asari use implants (or you wouldn't be upgrading Liara's amps in ME1).

[JaerWolfe]

@Sia...I didn't think of spoonbending. Do you think spoonbending requires a bit of control, minor as it may seem? Say something on par with a mischievous young boy controlling a sibling's toys?

[jillyfae]

I can't imagine most vanguards being spoon-benders. They seem more likely to cause slamming doors and broken dishes. For a slightly less adrenaline-junky-type, I suppose that might work. Biotics as a tool for childhood mischief, rather than a display of lost temper, is intriguing. (And much more likely to be how Kaidan manifested, I think, as I'm convinced he was the tinkerer/thinker type even before Vyrnuus inspired an excess of caution and self-control.)

[Nightodie]

I don't know for sure but the word Amp implies a boost not control...



@ Phoenix.. Justification ... Pffft

[siriusrambles]

jillyfae wrote...
Yes. That.  Thank you.

you're welcome, my memories are fuzzy as well and i sometimes have a difficult time distinguishing between what i read and what i recall. 

Modifié par siriusrambles, 21 juillet 2010 - 06:56 .

[jillyfae]

Nightodie wrote...

I don't know for sure but the word Amp implies a boost not control...

@ Phoenix.. Justification ... Pffft

I always figured it did both.  Provided enough control that they could use the power produced, as well as channeling it better so they had more of it.  If that sentence makes any sense.

eta:  And I totally misread that, and was just talking about implants.  But yes, the combo effect described by people whose brains are still working sounds perfect.

Modifié par jillyfae, 21 juillet 2010 - 06:59 .

[Sialater]

I just used spoonbending in the broadest sense. Something minor and odd. Making a little whirlwind out of your toys would probably be something a child would do in a fit, too.



It would depend on the personality of the child. One of Meg's first acts was to kill someone. Avery's first big on was self-defense on Mindoir, but she'd been "spoonbending" most of her childhood.

[sagefic]

Nightodie wrote...

I don't know for sure but the word Amp implies a boost not control...

@ Phoenix.. Justification ... Pffft

yeah, i think so too, night.

i got the impression that implants give control, amps give boost.

so L2, major ability to control/harness power, but with drawbacks to the neurological systems.

L3s, less ability to harness power - like always leaking power - but easier on the body.'

L4? L1?

L5 - more control/harnessing of raw power available from L3s, easier on body. my take was that they shift range of powers? or maybe take a while to get used to the added control? i think of L5s as a fancy sportscar after driving an automatic minvan of L3s (my reasoning behind loosing ALL abilities in me2 and starting over)

then the amps kick in more oopmf.

[Sialater]

Implant is separate from the amp. You plug the AMP into the implant.

[siriusrambles]

sagequeen wrote...

Nightodie wrote...
I don't know for sure but the word Amp implies a boost not control...

yeah, i think so too, night.

i got the impression that implants give control, amps give boost.

so L2, major ability to control/harness power, but with drawbacks to the neurological systems.

L3s, less ability to harness power - like always leaking power - but easier on the body.'

L4? L1?

L5 - more control/harnessing of raw power available from L3s, easier on body. my take was that they shift range of powers? or maybe take a while to get used to the added control? i think of L5s as a fancy sportscar after driving an automatic minvan of L3s (my reasoning behind loosing ALL abilities in me2 and starting over)

then the amps kick in more oopmf.

we three are on the same wavelength concerning biotics.

[Pacifien]

L1 are supposed to be pretty pathetic as implants go. L2 spikes much higher than L3, but the complications were extreme. L3 obviously integrates better with the nervous system, for some reason, doesn't spike high. Perhaps it was the biotic spikes that caused the problems with L2s, overloading the nervous system. L4s are supposed to have a VI interface that provides for a more streamlined output than an L3 - don't know if it typically provides for a powerful biotic, but Gillian Grayson is supposed to have one and her biotic output is considerable. There are two types of L5 implants, one for Sentinel/Adepts and one for Vanguards. I think the Vanguard implant is specifically tuned for the Charge. It is considered to be more powerful than the L3/L4, but does it return to the levels of the L2? Don't know.

Anyway, I'm opposite on implant/amp it would seem. Amps give control, implants give the power. Hence how an L2 with the same amp as an L3 would still be more powerful.

Modifié par Pacifien, 21 juillet 2010 - 07:06 .

[Sialater]

siriusrambles wrote...

sagequeen wrote...

Nightodie wrote...
I don't know for sure but the word Amp implies a boost not control...

yeah, i think so too, night.

i got the impression that implants give control, amps give boost.

so L2, major ability to control/harness power, but with drawbacks to the neurological systems.

L3s, less ability to harness power - like always leaking power - but easier on the body.'

L4? L1?

L5 - more control/harnessing of raw power available from L3s, easier on body. my take was that they shift range of powers? or maybe take a while to get used to the added control? i think of L5s as a fancy sportscar after driving an automatic minvan of L3s (my reasoning behind loosing ALL abilities in me2 and starting over)

then the amps kick in more oopmf.

we three are on the same wavelength concerning biotics.

I think we're all actually saying the same thing.  The thing that's really the question is what happens BEFORE the implant.

[UrbanPhoenix]

Sialater wrote...

I think we're all actually saying the same thing.  The thing that's really the question is what happens BEFORE the implant.

LOOPHOLES! It's the Bioware flaw!

[siriusrambles]

Pacifien wrote...
Anyway, I'm opposite on implant/amp it would seem. Amps give control, implants give the power. Hence how an L2 with the same amp as an L3 would still be more powerful.

i didn't think about that.  i wish i had that booklet. 

Sialater wrote...
I think we're all actually saying the same thing.  The thing that's really the question is what happens BEFORE the implant.

i have absolutely no idea on this one. 

Modifié par siriusrambles, 21 juillet 2010 - 07:17 .

[JaerWolfe]

From the Wiki:

"In humans, about one in ten exposures will result in a person with moderate, stable biotic talents that are worth training. However, there is a risk the eezo will cause medical complications instead, such as terminal cancer, and even if biotic talents manifest themselves, they aren't always permanent. In extremely rare cases, humans who were exposed in utero, yet did not manifest biotic talents, can develop them in puberty through further exposure to element zero.



All biotics are sensitive to mass effect fields, but each biotic must first be trained, then outfitted with a surgically implanted amplifier in the brain - usually at puberty - to use their talents to any useful degree. A biotic has to essentially develop conscious control of their nervous system, which is a long, slow process. Once trained, a biotic can generate and control dark energy to move objects, generate protective barriers or restrain enemies. This is done using a technique called 'physical mnemonics'; the biotic uses a physical gesture to cause the right neurons and eezo nodules to fire and create the desired effect. Bio-amps are artificial devices used to increase a biotic's talent in a particular discipline."



So biotic abilities physically manifest themselves long before puberty and need to be trained even before the implant.

The last line in the last paragraph confuses me...so the amps increase talent in a specific discipline? So Kaidan's would have had increased his ability with say Throw depending on which amp he is using? Or it just increases all his talents as a Sentinel?

[jillyfae]

That last line doesn't make much sense in terms of gameplay in the first game, since you can yank one amp out of Kaidan and give it to Wrex, or Liara, or Shepard.



And in ME2, the differentiation between Adept/Sentinel and Vanguard was at the implant level, so the sentence doesn't make much sense in that context either.



Wikia glitch?

[Jade5233]

JaerWolfe wrote...

From the Wiki:
"In humans, about one in ten exposures will result in a person with moderate, stable biotic talents that are worth training. However, there is a risk the eezo will cause medical complications instead, such as terminal cancer, and even if biotic talents manifest themselves, they aren't always permanent. In extremely rare cases, humans who were exposed in utero, yet did not manifest biotic talents, can develop them in puberty through further exposure to element zero.

All biotics are sensitive to mass effect fields, but each biotic must first be trained, then outfitted with a surgically implanted amplifier in the brain - usually at puberty - to use their talents to any useful degree. A biotic has to essentially develop conscious control of their nervous system, which is a long, slow process. Once trained, a biotic can generate and control dark energy to move objects, generate protective barriers or restrain enemies. This is done using a technique called 'physical mnemonics'; the biotic uses a physical gesture to cause the right neurons and eezo nodules to fire and create the desired effect. Bio-amps are artificial devices used to increase a biotic's talent in a particular discipline."

So biotic abilities physically manifest themselves long before puberty and need to be trained even before the implant.
The last line in the last paragraph confuses me...so the amps increase talent in a specific discipline? So Kaidan's would have had increased his ability with say Throw depending on which amp he is using? Or it just increases all his talents as a Sentinel?

From Wikia:
Biotics: Biotic Amps
Biotics manipulate mass effect fields using dozens of element zero nodules within their nervous system that react to electric stimuli from the brain. Amplifiers allow biotics to synchronize the nodules so they can form fields large and strong enough for practical use. Amplifiers can improve a specific discipline or talent.
An implant is surgically-embedded interface port into which amps are "plugged in". On humans, the implant is usually placed at the base of the skull for convenient access, though the user must be careful to keep it free of contaminants.
Implant ports can fit a variety of amps, and there is a growing market for modifications and add-ons. The finest quality implants and amps are manufactured by asari artisans, but the Alliance's L3 implants - first deployed in 2170 - are a significant step forward.

@Kaidan's headaches.  I thought that Chakwas implied/said that they were due to the L2.  He was offered to be re-wired to the L3 for that reason (sounds painful) but declined.

[Jade5233]

I found this on BAaT from Wikia:

Most of the children sent to Jump Zero were teenagers, who nicknamed the programme 'Brain Camp'. Anxious for non-interference, the authorities made a concerted effort to separate the teenagers from their families, by convincing them that biotic abilities—and therefore their own children—were dangerous. Aboard a space station in the middle of nowhere with no contact from home, the teenagers grew into close circles of friends who worked, trained and hung out together.



Sounds like Kaidan would have gone sometime as a teen rather than as a school-aged child--so at least 13.

[jillyfae]

Jade5233 wrote...


From Wikia:
Biotics: Biotic Amps
Biotics manipulate mass effect fields using dozens of element zero nodules within their nervous system that react to electric stimuli from the brain. Amplifiers allow biotics to synchronize the nodules so they can form fields large and strong enough for practical use. Amplifiers can improve a specific discipline or talent.
An implant is surgically-embedded interface port into which amps are "plugged in". On humans, the implant is usually placed at the base of the skull for convenient access, though the user must be careful to keep it free of contaminants.
Implant ports can fit a variety of amps, and there is a growing market for modifications and add-ons. The finest quality implants and amps are manufactured by asari artisans, but the Alliance's L3 implants - first deployed in 2170 - are a significant step forward.

@Kaidan's headaches.  I thought that Chakwas implied/said that they were due to the L2.  He was offered to be re-wired to the L3 for that reason (sounds painful) but declined.

It's not just painful, but questionably effective and highly dangerous.
(more wikia quotes)
Biotics are classed according to their strength and implantation:

• L1. These biotics can manipulate small objects but aren't
  strong enough to be offensively viable, because the L1s were implanted
  after puberty.
• L2. The L2 implants were first implemented in 2167. The
  results vary wildly - some L2s are hardly stronger than an L1, others
  are strong but unstable, while a few are powerful and stable, but suffer
  discomfort from their implants. L2s are all around the same age.
• L3. In 2170, the L3 implant was developed. L3 biotics
  are consistently stable with moderate ability; while their upper limit
  is less than an L2, L3s are safe from dangerous side effects. Because of
  the implementation date, most L3s are 25 or younger. Some are older,
  having been implanted later in life.
• L3-R. Short for 'L3-retrofit', this is an L1 or L2 who
  has undergone extremely dangerous brain surgery to replace their implant
  with a newer model.
• L3-X. Implants installed in an unsuitable candidate.
• L4. A new implant used on the children in the Ascension Project; these implants use
  biotic amplifiers with inbuilt VI interfaces to allow for monitoring and
  improved performance. L4 implants give about a 10-15% increase in biotic
  ability in 90% of subjects, compared to L3s, with no currently known
  side effects.
• L5x. In Mass Effect 2, Adepts are outfitted with L5x implants.
• L5n. In Mass Effect 2, Vanguards
  are outfitted with L5n implants.

So, it doesn't specify how close the 10 - 15% increase in L4 function over the L3 compares to the L2, but does mention that the 'retro-fit' surgery is extremely dangerous.  (Probably has mixed results, too, if there's a way to specify an unsuitable candidate.  Might completely wipe out some biotics, even if it doesn't kill them or cause brain damage.)

[Pacifien]

See, then the L1 description seems to conflict with the timeline of when Kaidan got his implant, because he was definitely well into his teens by then. Like maybe he got an L2 retrofit to the initial L1.

[Jade5233]

Pacifien wrote...

See, then the L1 description seems to conflict with the timeline of when Kaidan got his implant, because he was definitely well into his teens by then. Like maybe he got an L2 retrofit to the initial L1.

Not necessarily.  It talks about L1's being less successfull in part because of being implanted after puberty.
Puberty is a process, not an event.  And whie girls may start around age ten and mostly finish around age 16, boys start later--more like 12 or 13 and continue to their very late teens.  So Kaidan likely at 16 was in the middle of the process.  At 16 he definitely wouldn't be in that "after puberty" timining.  (my line of work is with children)

And since BAaT used teens (not younger children) and we already established that they needed to learn to use their biotic prior to the implant, the timeline is plausible.