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[siriusrambles]

when someone refers to shepard as a mary sue, what does that mean? i've never heard that before.

Modifié par siriusrambles, 13 août 2010 - 04:43 .

[sagefic]

 mary sue - though by that definition, femshep is always going to be a mary sue

[Lucky Thirteen]

siriusrambles wrote...

when someone refers to shepard as a mary sue, what does that mean? i've never heard that before.

Wiki on Mary Sue

edit: In all technicalities, Shepard is a Canon Sue in the game. Mary Sue when you write about Shepard.

Modifié par Lucky Thirteen, 13 août 2010 - 04:53 .

[siriusrambles]

@brodyaha - yes, your post did make sense. though i'm worried that the explanation in me3 will not appease the individuals that now hate the vs and wish them bodily harm.



thanks 13&sage.

[syllogi]

sagequeen wrote...

 mary sue - though by that definition, femshep is always going to be a mary sue

I love that Wesley Crusher from ST: TNG is the foremost example cited in this article.  He's the character I always use to explain the concept to people.

The thing about Shepard's "Mary-Sue-ism" is that so much is left up to the imagination, she/he is only as perfect or flawed as you want them to be.  ME2 does give the player more opportunities to be "imperfect", but the player can generally explain them away.

That's another thing the player has to consider about Horizon:  are you willing to roleplay your character as an imperfect being, who may be wrong about the way they're handling Cerberus and/or the reunion with Kaidan?  If your character does no wrong, and any character who dares to question their actions or doesn't automatically worship them is bad, then Horizon is especially grievous. 

[sagefic]

Brodyaha wrote...

sagequeen wrote...

 mary sue - though by that definition, femshep is always going to be a mary sue

maybe as a paragon, but I highly doubt renegade femshep is worthy of role-modelling.

By the way, @sagequeen: great fanfiction!  I've been reading it and getting my ME character fix since I've taken a break from the games.  I think you excellently weave in how Kaidan might be dealing with Shepard's reappearance after her death, and her subsequent alliance with Cerberus.  Hope BioWare reads it and takes some story cues from you for ME3 (you know, without it being plagiarism and all).

daw.  thanks. and BW is welcome to any of it. seriously - i didn't take kindly to the pornsite plagarism, but BW can steal whatever they want from me (listening devs?). i can't speak for everyone else, but i assume most writers here would be THRILLED if their imagined reunions, etc. made it into the third game. unlikely as that is.

ha! though i took this "mary sue test" and my shep came up as a total mary sue. but i was thinking the whole time...but...she DOES have special powers. it's part of the game! so yeah, shep is a total canon sue. dunno how you're going to get away from that.

@ teen - totally. and personally, there were moments when femshep made me uncomfortable in the first game - i guess she sometimes was still very...pushy towards kaidan, like the CO/subordinate thing never *quite* left her mind. at the time i ignored it, but in me2, it seemed like...no, that really was a barrier between them imo.

Modifié par sagequeen, 13 août 2010 - 05:11 .

[siriusrambles]

i've always roleplayed my sheps as flawed characters. especially in me2 because i was not on board with their collaboration with cerberus and their behavior in general. so i had to invent reasons in my mind why they were acting strangely.

[sagefic]

Brodyaha wrote...

sagequeen wrote...

 mary sue - though by that definition, femshep is always going to be a mary sue

maybe as a paragon, but I highly doubt renegade femshep is worthy of role-modelling.

*snip*

i think this is why fort's shep amuses me so much. renegade shep is a fun shep to read.

[syllogi]

sagequeen wrote...

Brodyaha wrote...

sagequeen wrote...

 mary sue - though by that definition, femshep is always going to be a mary sue

maybe as a paragon, but I highly doubt renegade femshep is worthy of role-modelling.

*snip*

i think this is why fort's shep amuses me so much. renegade shep is a fun shep to read.

Agreed.  I never really cared for playing as a renegade until I read Parallax. 

I still don't like my own renegade Shepard, though.  She was cool in ME1, but the things she's doing in ME2 are really douchey.  It's very hard to justify going along with Zaeed in his loyalty mission, or choosing Morinth over Samara, at least in my paragon mind.

[sagefic]

i think there are some things that make sense to me both ways and i have a hard time making up my mind (bringing down the sky, heretic station, genophage data, kasumi's box), some where i clearly prefer one way, but don't think of the opposite as *evil* necessarily (tali's mission, how to deal with jacob's father, punching al jilani or not, but then there are some where i really have a hard time conceiving of playing it any other way than paragon. it's like, some moments i just think there is NO rational reason to do that.

edit: to stay on topic - there is NO rational reason not to romance kaidan. 



i defy you to resist.  

Modifié par sagequeen, 13 août 2010 - 06:25 .

[Sialater]

sagequeen wrote...

Brodyaha wrote...

sagequeen wrote...

 mary sue - though by that definition, femshep is always going to be a mary sue

maybe as a paragon, but I highly doubt renegade femshep is worthy of role-modelling.

By the way, @sagequeen: great fanfiction!  I've been reading it and getting my ME character fix since I've taken a break from the games.  I think you excellently weave in how Kaidan might be dealing with Shepard's reappearance after her death, and her subsequent alliance with Cerberus.  Hope BioWare reads it and takes some story cues from you for ME3 (you know, without it being plagiarism and all).

daw.  thanks. and BW is welcome to any of it. seriously - i didn't take kindly to the pornsite plagarism, but BW can steal whatever they want from me (listening devs?). i can't speak for everyone else, but i assume most writers here would be THRILLED if their imagined reunions, etc. made it into the third game. unlikely as that is.

ha! though i took this "mary sue test" and my shep came up as a total mary sue. but i was thinking the whole time...but...she DOES have special powers. it's part of the game! so yeah, shep is a total canon sue. dunno how you're going to get away from that.

@ teen - totally. and personally, there were moments when femshep made me uncomfortable in the first game - i guess she sometimes was still very...pushy towards kaidan, like the CO/subordinate thing never *quite* left her mind. at the time i ignored it, but in me2, it seemed like...no, that really was a barrier between them imo.

Ah, but biotics aren't THAT unusual in ME that it's automatically a Sue power. 

Meghan's actually not a Sue.  Avery may be, though.

[sagefic]

Sialater wrote...

sagequeen wrote...

Brodyaha wrote...

sagequeen wrote...

 mary sue - though by that definition, femshep is always going to be a mary sue

maybe as a paragon, but I highly doubt renegade femshep is worthy of role-modelling.

By the way, @sagequeen: great fanfiction!  I've been reading it and getting my ME character fix since I've taken a break from the games.  I think you excellently weave in how Kaidan might be dealing with Shepard's reappearance after her death, and her subsequent alliance with Cerberus.  Hope BioWare reads it and takes some story cues from you for ME3 (you know, without it being plagiarism and all).

daw.  thanks. and BW is welcome to any of it. seriously - i didn't take kindly to the pornsite plagarism, but BW can steal whatever they want from me (listening devs?). i can't speak for everyone else, but i assume most writers here would be THRILLED if their imagined reunions, etc. made it into the third game. unlikely as that is.

ha! though i took this "mary sue test" and my shep came up as a total mary sue. but i was thinking the whole time...but...she DOES have special powers. it's part of the game! so yeah, shep is a total canon sue. dunno how you're going to get away from that.

@ teen - totally. and personally, there were moments when femshep made me uncomfortable in the first game - i guess she sometimes was still very...pushy towards kaidan, like the CO/subordinate thing never *quite* left her mind. at the time i ignored it, but in me2, it seemed like...no, that really was a barrier between them imo.

Ah, but biotics aren't THAT unusual in ME that it's automatically a Sue power. 

Meghan's actually not a Sue.  Avery may be, though.

meghan is so not. and actually, if i ignore questions that i have no control over (um, well yes, shepard DID get admission into a special forces group as part of the story), kyrie ends up somewhere in the "meh, a bit" category. and i can live with that.  she's a bit of a sue, but she's also kind of a selfish b*tch. unfortunately, a lot of qualities that make a hero interesting can also make them over the top.

however, i saw that questions i answered "yes" because they are part of shep's canon add a whopping 100 mary-sue points based on that metric. and anything 50+ is considered a total mary-sue. so, heh. shep is a canon sue indeed.

and...i need to go actually get some chores done this morning. laters 

Modifié par sagequeen, 13 août 2010 - 07:04 .

[Sialater]

sagequeen wrote...

Sialater wrote...

sagequeen wrote...

Brodyaha wrote...

sagequeen wrote...

 mary sue - though by that definition, femshep is always going to be a mary sue

maybe as a paragon, but I highly doubt renegade femshep is worthy of role-modelling.

By the way, @sagequeen: great fanfiction!  I've been reading it and getting my ME character fix since I've taken a break from the games.  I think you excellently weave in how Kaidan might be dealing with Shepard's reappearance after her death, and her subsequent alliance with Cerberus.  Hope BioWare reads it and takes some story cues from you for ME3 (you know, without it being plagiarism and all).

daw.  thanks. and BW is welcome to any of it. seriously - i didn't take kindly to the pornsite plagarism, but BW can steal whatever they want from me (listening devs?). i can't speak for everyone else, but i assume most writers here would be THRILLED if their imagined reunions, etc. made it into the third game. unlikely as that is.

ha! though i took this "mary sue test" and my shep came up as a total mary sue. but i was thinking the whole time...but...she DOES have special powers. it's part of the game! so yeah, shep is a total canon sue. dunno how you're going to get away from that.

@ teen - totally. and personally, there were moments when femshep made me uncomfortable in the first game - i guess she sometimes was still very...pushy towards kaidan, like the CO/subordinate thing never *quite* left her mind. at the time i ignored it, but in me2, it seemed like...no, that really was a barrier between them imo.

Ah, but biotics aren't THAT unusual in ME that it's automatically a Sue power. 

Meghan's actually not a Sue.  Avery may be, though.

meghan is so not. and actually, if i ignore questions that i have no control over (um, well yes, shepard DID get admission into a special forces group as part of the story), kyrie ends up somewhere in the "meh, a bit" category. and i can live with that.  she's a bit of a sue, but she's also kind of a selfish b*tch. unfortunately, a lot of qualities that make a hero interesting can also make them over the top.

however, i saw that questions i answered "yes" because they are part of shep's canon add a whopping 100 mary-sue points based on that metric. and anything 50+ is considered a total mary-sue. so, heh. shep is a canon sue indeed.

and...i need to go actually get some chores done this morning. done wasting time. laters 

Yeah, Meg's biggest hits were her origin story.  Other than that, I tried to leave out the stuff BW put in that we have no control over.  Apparently, a sole survivor and orphan are huge Sue points.

There were no questions I could link to Kaidan, though, since she's not technically Kirking.

[syllogi]

I actually decided to replay ME1 and ME2 and changed my character's origin from Colonist to Spacer to avoid adding angst to her background. I look at Gwen Shepard as an ordinary woman who has always wanted to help people, and has been put in extraordinary circumstances, and rose to the challenge. She adored her dad, who died in the line of duty, and had a strained relationship with her mom during her teenage years, and she lost friends at Elysium, which I figure is realistic drama for someone who was raised in a military environment and joined up herself.



I hope that's not too Mary-Sue like. I did want to make her pretty, though, although blonde hair and blue eyes aren't something that usually appeal to me. I reasoned that genetically, she'd be different enough to stand out in a crowd in the 2180s, but I wasn't going all out and giving her purple eyes and snow white hair, or some other sue-ish physical trait.

[syllogi]

Ack!  Sorry, double posted.

Modifié par TeenZombie, 13 août 2010 - 07:44 .

[FireEye]

These days, "Mary Sue" tends to be so thrown around that it is analogous to "character I don't like," but with an academic flair. The original, almost Jungian, archetype that it denoted is passed over by many people. Furthermore, the Mary Sue litmus tests have never actually worked in practice.



... I've even seen Kaidan called a Mary Sue, so... yeah.

[Sialater]

OK, That last is just craziness.

[siriusrambles]

i like kaidan because he's normal and not a braggart. the macho guys in games are unappealing to me.

[FireEye]

L.Aendrus wrote...
Agreed, I think people like using it as a buzz word/phrase just because THEY don't like the character.   People hate on Kaidan because he isn't the traditional bang everything/kill everything masculine guy.   

And thank goodness for that! 

[siriusrambles]

nice guys give the best hugs.  <3

[FireEye]

siriusrambles wrote...
nice guys give the best hugs.  <3

... :innocent: