63501 réponses à ce sujet

[sagefic]

FireEye wrote...

These days, "Mary Sue" tends to be so thrown around that it is analogous to "character I don't like," but with an academic flair. The original, almost Jungian, archetype that it denoted is passed over by many people. Furthermore, the Mary Sue litmus tests have never actually worked in practice.

... I've even seen Kaidan called a Mary Sue, so... yeah.

well, looking at that litmus test, i think every character in the mass effect universe, with the possible exception of Udina, would qualify as a mary sue. anderson, wrex, certainly kaidan. so, yeah.

i think the ultimate test is more if the character fits the world, rather than being "too awesome" to be a realistic resident of it. on that score, canon shep does strain credibility, but in many ways, i think that's what the fanfic writers i've been reading are trying to do is to make shep seem more human.

"you make me feel...human"  okay, off on another wavelength altogether now. 

Modifié par sagequeen, 13 août 2010 - 08:51 .

[syllogi]

FireEye wrote...

These days, "Mary Sue" tends to be so thrown around that it is analogous to "character I don't like," but with an academic flair. The original, almost Jungian, archetype that it denoted is passed over by many people. Furthermore, the Mary Sue litmus tests have never actually worked in practice.

... I've even seen Kaidan called a Mary Sue, so... yeah.

  In what world could Kaidan be considered a Mary-Sue???  That's like the whole "whiny" myth, someone obviously just doesn't like him and is projecting.

Generally, male NPCs in video games are most definitely NOT Mary-Sues, because then they might be cooler than the player character, and that's not allowed to happen.  Female NPCs might slide through, but I think Bioware writers are savvy enough to give their characters flaws and blind spots.

It will be interesting to see how Kaidan is portrayed in ME3; like I said earlier, they're definitely going to have to do something to make Kaidan/Ashley "cool" again in many players eyes.  A simple "I was wrong" won't cut it, even though that would be nice too.

[sagefic]

TeenZombie wrote...

FireEye wrote...

These days, "Mary Sue" tends to be so thrown around that it is analogous to "character I don't like," but with an academic flair. The original, almost Jungian, archetype that it denoted is passed over by many people. Furthermore, the Mary Sue litmus tests have never actually worked in practice.

... I've even seen Kaidan called a Mary Sue, so... yeah.

  In what world could Kaidan be considered a Mary-Sue???  That's like the whole "whiny" myth, someone obviously just doesn't like him and is projecting.

Generally, male NPCs in video games are most definitely NOT Mary-Sues, because then they might be cooler than the player character, and that's not allowed to happen.  Female NPCs might slide through, but I think Bioware writers are savvy enough to give their characters flaws and blind spots.

It will be interesting to see how Kaidan is portrayed in ME3; like I said earlier, they're definitely going to have to do something to make Kaidan/Ashley "cool" again in many players eyes.  A simple "I was wrong" won't cut it, even though that would be nice too.

a badass intro cutscene would go a LONG way, i think. something where they kill multiple baddies to help shep out. it worked for legion, after all (creepy geth...)

Modifié par sagequeen, 13 août 2010 - 09:01 .

[chem light]

The perfect way around Horizon is to do a backstory for the VS involving them secretly supporting your operations, however directly or indirectly. However, the Alliance couldn't officially condones Shep's actions, so their support had to be kept secret. On Horizon, they couldn't blow their cover but had to do something extreme to push you away, lest you continue to try and actively recruit them.

[sagefic]

chem light wrote...

The perfect way around Horizon is to do a backstory for the VS involving them secretly supporting your operations, however directly or indirectly. However, the Alliance couldn't officially condones Shep's actions, so their support had to be kept secret. On Horizon, they couldn't blow their cover but had to do something extreme to push you away, lest you continue to try and actively recruit them.

while i would love to believe this to be true, i have a hard time understanding why kaidan would say he loved shep in that case. those seemed like the words of someone hurt and not thinking clearly, not someone plotting to push you away.

[FireEye]

Males are less frequently called on the Mary Sue traits than Females to begin with, though, because men can traditionally be heroes while it's an extra step up for women to assume the same roles.  And people are more critical of female characters to begin with, for some reason.

I think the best Mary Sue test I've ever seen was one question, paraphrasing: "Does the universe bend over backwards to accommodate [character] or [character]'s whims, especially in situations where it shouldn't?"  And even then, some Sues can be interesting characters despite their Sueish qualities.  Perspective and writing talent plays into it... and Anti-Sues can be just as grating as textbook Sues. 

Anyway.  In the game, Kaidan's not even on the radar - even if he's got biotics, a little angst in his past, and eventually gets to sex up Shepard or... whatever else could count against him in whoever's mind.

The opening Miranda-tIM conversation pings Sue territory for Shepard for me (where Shepard is portrayed as the Only Person Who Can Save the Galaxy, rather than the Right Type of Person to Save the Galaxy), male or female.  At least the ME1 opening sounded like she was coming off a longer list, and the Prothean Beacon could have been anyone.  Although to be fair, Miranda and tIM are narrating their own views and not necessarily correct.

Modifié par FireEye, 13 août 2010 - 09:23 .

[bioticbooty]

Brodyaha wrote...

chem light wrote...

The perfect way around Horizon is to do a backstory for the VS involving them secretly supporting your operations, however directly or indirectly. However, the Alliance couldn't officially condones Shep's actions, so their support had to be kept secret. On Horizon, they couldn't blow their cover but had to do something extreme to push you away, lest you continue to try and actively recruit them.

I understand where you're  going with your idea, but I disagree.  Horizon was admittedly a disappointment, just because Kaidan/Ashely/general VS got mad at Shepard.  Even more disappointing if they're a love interest.  But you know what?  It works out better that way; much better.  And much more believable.  Would you want a LI on your team who was automatically, "Oh!  It's so good to see you again!  I know you were dead/missing for two years, let's pick up right where we left off!  Who cares if you're with a terrorist organization, I know after seeing for for five seconds that you're still the same person I loved!"  No wonder Kaidan didn't join Shepard.  If she hadn't contacted him for two years, he has every right to be mad.  Especially if he's been pining away for her all that time, as indicated in the email.
And, even if Kaidan did believe the truth from Shepard's story, he probably doubts that it's her even, maybe she's a clone Cerberus harvested from DNA, and they're telling her she's the true Shepard.  Maybe she's an imposter imitator.  How does he know?  He simply doesn't want to get burned again.  It's more believable than having them be on a secret project, supporting Shepard and Cerberus.

I'm with you on this, Brodyaha. I think having the LI automatically forgive you, abandon the alliance, and join your cause would cheapen the story and make the relationship less meaningful. Sure, you could claim that they followed you out of blind love -- but is that what people really want out of love? Not me, sure as hell not. I'd like to think that with a better understanding of the situation (because there are some things I don't think the VS LI knows about because of stonewalling and Shepard's lack of forthcoming on the details) that they'd be able to reevaluate everything and decide to come with you at a later point. 

I would love for this to be a complex part of the story arc in ME3 -- making everything right with the VS LI, or deciding not to. I would love it if bioware gave us that choice, where the VS would come to you and lay out their reasoning based on post-horizon events and maybe the reading of certain files -- and that you can either choose to forgive them or not. Maybe you have to convince them that you're not insane. Hell, maybe what you did with the Collector's Base determines whether or not they can forgive you.

I like my stories complex, full of depth, and interesting. In short (haha), I like the way Horizon went, even if I was secretly howling in agony as Kaidan walked away from my Shepard. 

[Star]

Good afternoon. 

After reading a lot of great fics (yes, those of you with chapter stories, keep writing please....I'm waiting eagerly!)  I've had an idea rolling around in my head about the last night of shore leave. A bit angsty which is not my norm, prolly a bit fluffy, which is my norm.

So here it is...the closure of the misunderstandings.  I hope you guys will read it and enjoy it.

http://www.fanfictio...89/1/Last_Night

And many thanks to Shenzi for reading and commenting this afternoon.  I've got to go out to FF.net and fix the post since I left off the acknowledgement      

[Star]

Thread resusitation!

[sagefic]

yes, though i think teen is right, there's going to have to be some fancy footwork to resolve why they don't join you with why they WILL join you. i want to think BW has not painted themselves into a corner, but for the life of me, i see problematic stuff with however you try to resolve the VS stuff for at least one person's RP experience. then again, they just ignored akuze, so maybe something will just get left out

[VintageUtti]

Brodyaha wrote...

quantumparadigm wrote...

I'm with you on this, Brodyaha. I think having the LI automatically forgive you, abandon the alliance, and join your cause would cheapen the story and make the relationship less meaningful....

Snip.

I think it would abandon the story too.  Kaidan gets a lot of flack for joining Shepard and stating that his loyalties lie with the Alliance, but it's the same story with the other returning squadmates as well; they don't go with you initially.  Tali doesn't believe you at first, except if you complete a certain quest in ME1 and give her geth data; she returns to the quarian fleet.  I personally thinks she joins Shepard after because she's mad at the Admiralty Board for their bad decision-making. Liara knows it's you, because she gave the body to Cerberus herself, but she doesn't go with Shepard either due to her quest with the Shadow Broker.  Garrus is different--doesn't have time to react because he's too busy dodging merc fire, then gets smacked in the head with a gunship shot and has no choice but to go with Cerberus.  The only person who is all, "SHEPARD!  WHOO!"  is Wrex (kind of), and he believes her, but he doesn't go with her either.  He's too busy ensuing the krogan population survives the genophage.

All the squadmates have different loyalties; Kaidan just happens to tell Shepard directly.

Delurking to agree with this.  I like the idea of Kaidan being very torn about your return (although I think we can all agree it could have executed much better) and I really hope that they continue and flesh out that part in ME3.  I am optimistic about it since Casey Hudson talked about the "love story" in 3 chapters I have to believe Kaidan will play an important role in the final game since they made that effort with ME2 to keep all of the ME1 LIs alive. I just wish we got at least one more conversation with Kaidan even if there was no way that he would join the suicide mission.  Now if we don't get all of those resolution opportunities in ME3 than I am going to be cursing Horizon forever and ever.

I thought the reunions/recruitments with Tali and Garrus were handled well in ME2 with Tali being somewhat ngry/shocked you're still alive at first and Garrus, even though he's kind of forced with you, doesn't open up to you until later.  I took Wrex's reaction as he left you immediately after the Battle of the Citadel and never knew you died so he has no reason to doubt you.

Modifié par VintageUtti, 14 août 2010 - 12:25 .

[bioticbooty]

Brodyaha wrote...

All the squadmates have different loyalties; Kaidan just happens to tell Shepard directly.

Couldn't have said it better myself. I really hope they don't cheapen the Horizon scene in ME3 by giving it some different meaning or making the VS just decide to come with you. I want to jump through hoops and really feel like I earned Kaidan back. 

Then I'll really swoon. 

[sagefic]

Brodyaha wrote...

*snip*

(His first question would probably be: "Why didn't you email me back?!")

QFT

[syllogi]

sagequeen wrote...

Brodyaha wrote...

*snip*

(His first question would probably be: "Why didn't you email me back?!")

QFT

All he wanted was a little hope.  Why didn't you respond to his email, Shepard???

[fortunesque]

Hi new people!

And now I have to take the Mary Sue test to see if Faith Shepard is a MS according to the test... I hope not

[siriusrambles]

^i cannot refuse that particular kaidan face anything. take your pick on which one i'm referring to.

[sagefic]

fort, i think all sheps are mary sue according to that test. even faith, who is the most non-mary sue i've yet seen in a fanfic

[fortunesque]

I don't think biotics count as a yes to the question "Is your character some other kind of cool humanoid with powers/abilities beyond human ability?"



Biotics are a normal part of the universe in which the story takes place.

[Sialater]

fortunesque wrote...

Hi new people!
And now I have to take the Mary Sue test to see if Faith Shepard is a MS according to the test... I hope not

Leave out the default Shep stuff.  It artifically inflates.

[fortunesque]

Sialater wrote...

fortunesque wrote...

Hi new people!
And now I have to take the Mary Sue test to see if Faith Shepard is a MS according to the test... I hope not

Leave out the default Shep stuff.  It artifically inflates.

Yeah, I'm going to have to. Some of these I'm clicking on and going "But that's what I had to work with already!!"

[Sialater]

fortunesque wrote...

Sialater wrote...

fortunesque wrote...

Hi new people!
And now I have to take the Mary Sue test to see if Faith Shepard is a MS according to the test... I hope not

Leave out the default Shep stuff.  It artifically inflates.

Yeah, I'm going to have to. Some of these I'm clicking on and going "But that's what I had to work with already!!"

I kept the back story stuff, though, since that was a choice.