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[Elysis]

fortunesque wrote...

You don't trust a group of racial supremacists trying to subvert every other race? That's just silly

This made me lol.
I actually despised working for Cerberus, I was so mad at Bioware for making us go through this.
And yet, I find it funny that some people are all "You know, Cerberus isn't THAT bad after all...".

I think Bioware did a wonderful job at making TIM not so timmy (does it make sense?). I mean, all of ME2 is a subtle little scheme to turn your opinion around of what you could have forged about Cerberus (or your opinions in general) in ME1.
Oh, ME 3 is going to be interesting. 

That and the fact that Kaidan will come back into our Shepard's lives.

[Aslanasadi]

I hated that I had to work with Cerberus...and I don't trust them at all...that's why I always destroyed the base... And yeah, I do understand Kaidan going on distance...even so it hurt my femshep badly...In my imagination I always say, that she had to stay cool on Horizon, because she was worried that someone could use him to get to her...

Kelly...hm, like I mentioned before I don't know what to think about her...but then again, after you rescued her from the Collector base, she seemed to be a little different...but maybe that was just a wrong impression...

[Chignon]

Elysis wrote...

fortunesque wrote...



You don't trust a group of racial supremacists trying to subvert every other race? That's just silly

This made me lol.

I actually despised working for Cerberus, I was so mad at Bioware for making us go through this.

And yet, I find it funny that some people are all "You know, Cerberus isn't THAT bad after all...".



I think Bioware did a wonderful job at making TIM not so timmy (does it make sense?). I mean, all of ME2 is a subtle little scheme to turn your opinion around of what you could have forged about Cerberus (or your opinions in general) in ME1.

Oh, ME 3 is going to be interesting.



That and the fact that Kaidan will come back into our Shepard's lives.

Well, I don't know if it's subtle, but they definitely tried to portray Cerberus as the good guys and every thing they did in ME1 and befiore was suddenly justified by either saying "Oh, this cell turned rogue!" or, alternatively, "Maybe, but they are the only ones actually doing something.".

If my Shepard could have had her way, she'd have left Miranda and Jacob on the Lazarus station and taken the shuttle anywhere else but not to the next Cerberus station and to TIM.

As Sia said, it's hard to justify working with Cerberus. because that's what you do ultimately, even if Shepard states numerous times - if you chose those conversation options, of course - that she doesn't work with them or for them. You do take orders from Cerberus and you do what TIM tells you to do - you don't have much of a choice, except right at the end of the game and some minor deicions.



I only wanted to say that I'm glad that Kaidan didn't join Shepard, but oh well.



Bioware made it easy for themselves in some ways, I think. They often did more telling than showing

[Sialater]

Aslanasadi wrote...

I hated that I had to work with Cerberus...and I don't trust them at all...that's why I always destroyed the base... And yeah, I do understand Kaidan going on distance...even so it hurt my femshep badly...In my imagination I always say, that she had to stay cool on Horizon, because she was worried that someone could use him to get to her...
Kelly...hm, like I mentioned before I don't know what to think about her...but then again, after you rescued her from the Collector base, she seemed to be a little different...but maybe that was just a wrong impression...

Well, considering he was used to get to Shepard, it's a valid concern.  By both the Collectors AND Cerberus.  And possibly the Alliance.  Kaidan being on Horizon is one of the reasons I doubt Cerberus has gone entirely rogue.  Plausible deniablity is always a political tool.

[Elysis]

Chignon wrote...

Well, I don't know if it's subtle, but they definitely tried to portray Cerberus as the good guys and every thing they did in ME1 and befiore was suddenly justified by either saying "Oh, this cell turned rogue!" or, alternatively, "Maybe, but they are the only ones actually doing something.".

If my Shepard could have had her way, she'd have left Miranda and Jacob on the Lazarus station and taken the shuttle anywhere else but not to the next Cerberus station and to TIM.

As Sia said, it's hard to justify working with Cerberus. because that's what you do ultimately, even if Shepard states numerous times - if you chose those conversation options, of course - that she doesn't work with them or for them. You do take orders from Cerberus and you do what TIM tells you to do - you don't have much of a choice, except right at the end of the game and some minor deicions.

I only wanted to say that I'm glad that Kaidan didn't join Shepard, but oh well.

Bioware made it easy for themselves in some ways, I think. They often did more telling than showing

A thousand times, yes. 
I always chose the "I'm not working with them" option in conversations, but still : you're in a Cerberus ship, with cerberus crew, doing what TIM is telling you to do. I can understand the whole "same goal" thing, but still, Shepard is a trusth worthy character who could seek help for any of her missions any where (in the case of ME2, pwn some collector's bug ass).

I don't really understand Bioware's intentions, I hope we get answers in the ME3. I mean, I'm don't even know how I'm going to explain to Kaidan WHY my femshep worked along with Cerberus (if we get that chance). It's very out of character, especially after everything you see/hear in ME1.

I would have told TIM "up yours" and left in an instant after the Lazarus project (and would have taken the time of NOT thanking Miranda for bringing Shep back to life. I hate that Cerberus b*tch).

Modifié par Elysis, 03 septembre 2010 - 02:52 .

[Chignon]

I think I do understand Bioware's intentions, but working for one of the enemies of ME1 is still a hard pill to swallow. It's even more out of character and harder to roleplay, in my opinion, if your Shep has the Sole Survivor background.

Modifié par Chignon, 03 septembre 2010 - 03:09 .

[Sialater]

Chignon wrote...

I think I do understand Bioware's intentions, but working for one of the enemies of ME1 is still a hard pill to swallow. It's even more out of character and harder to roleplay, in my opinion, if your Shep has the Sole Survivor background.

Not really.  But then, I can only say how Meghan can sleep at night, which may not be the same for all Sheps.  She's put her revenge on the back burner.  It is, after all, a dish best served cold.  And the colonists come first. 

[sagefic]

Pacifien wrote...

sagequeen wrote...
i don't think it's bad until you put a post-it note inside of the DVDrom box with the #s of the romance-related saves written on it in case you forget which saves were which.
not...that anyone here would do that...
*hides*

I'm pretty sure my own list of saves and what they do will trump even your cheating ways, sage.

(Let's just say there are many of them, and they were all done for science.)

glad to know i'm not the only one. and congrats on being a Mod, pacifen. though given your awesome "save the whole squad" threads you did with ecael, i'm not surprised. those were intense, btw.

Chignon wrote...

I think I do understand Bioware's intentions, but working for one of the enemies of ME1 is still a hard pill to swallow. It's even more out of character and harder to roleplay, in my opinion, if your Shep has the Sole Survivor background.

this^

when i heard cerberus, i was thinking "whaaa???" i actually still think that every time i start a new game.

"I am NOT workin' with terrorists." - yeah, too bad sheppy. you have to. 

[Chignon]

For me, it is.



It's not about colonists coming first or not, but about Cerberus telling you that they are the only ones doing anything and you not being able to question that in the slightest, not having a choice but to do what Cerberus wants you to. Why am I not able to leave Miranda and Jacob at the Lazarus station? Why am I not able to contact the Alliance, or the Council for that matter, at all after I gathered evidence?



Maybe they are doing something about the colonists, too. The only reason Anderson won't tell you anything is because of your ties to Cerberus. Which, again, is not really a choice, but a matter of you being railroaded into it. And because of that railroading I find it hard to roleplay.

[Elysis]

They did know about the collectors and I'm sure they were at least trying to do something about the colonies. Kaidan went back to the Citadel I'm sure with a full report on what happened. Though, he didn't get a meeting with the council about it... (if my memory is correct) Odd?



The Alliance would do something about the collectors, it's human colonies we're talking about. I'm pretty sure Cerberus lied and hided as much as he could. And Shepard is kind of the enemy being with TIM and all, so, can't access to any information.



All of that, was so frustrating to me.

[Sialater]

The Alliance can legally do no more than send Kaidan out to the Colonies. The colonies are outside Citadel Space and outside Alliance jurisdiction entirely. Delan said the colonists (or at least he himself) went out there to get away from The Alliance. Lilith implies the same thing when she's discussing the colonists suspicions of Kaidan with him.


Think about it this way:  if terrorists were to suddenly start blowing up Antarctic bases, no one but the UN could do anything, legally.  And if for some reason, the UN couldn't act either... well... (It's an imperfect analogy... but it's all I got at the moment.)

Modifié par Sialater, 03 septembre 2010 - 04:12 .

[sagefic]

Elysis wrote...

They did know about the collectors and I'm sure they were at least trying to do something about the colonies. Kaidan went back to the Citadel I'm sure with a full report on what happened. Though, he didn't get a meeting with the council about it... (if my memory is correct) Odd?

The Alliance would do something about the collectors, it's human colonies we're talking about. I'm pretty sure Cerberus lied and hided as much as he could. And Shepard is kind of the enemy being with TIM and all, so, can't access to any information.

All of that, was so frustrating to me.

we don't know - that's the frustrating thing. for that matter, we don't even know if he ever made it back to the citadel. speculation only there.

and shep can only say "kaidan on horizon?" to anderson. you only get to press "wtf? you didn't trust me" to which anderson says he'd sent kaidan to investigate cerberus before he knew your ties to them, which presumably means kaidan was on horizon or enroute when shep showed up at the beginning of the game.

but you can't get anything else out of anderson, nor ask him where kaidan is now.

*shakes fist* come on VS DLC - tell me where kaidan is!!!

[Chignon]

Sialater wrote...

The Alliance can legally do no more than send Kaidan out to the Colonies. The colonies are outside Citadel Space and outside Alliance jurisdiction entirely. Delan said the colonists (or at least he himself) went out there to get away from The Alliance. Lilith implies the same thing when she's discussing the colonists suspicions of Kaidan with him.


Think about it this way:  if terrorists were to suddenly start blowing up Antarctic bases, no one but the UN could do anything, legally.  And if for some reason, the UN couldn't act either... well... (It's an imperfect analogy... but it's all I got at the moment.)

Legally, yes. But I doubt that they wouldn't lift a finger if human colonies just vanish in thin air. They must be doing something behind the scenes. And why not give Shepard the chance to do it for them if she cuts ties with Cerberus. But again you aren't given the chance to do that. Instead you go back to Cerberus and TIM.

Kaidan was "officially" there to install anti-air turrets on Horizon and improve relations with independent colonies. We know as much from Kaidan and from what Delan implies that he is actually investigating the disappearance of the colonies. Which again, in my opinion, would only make sense if there is more going on then just sending one soldier to look into what is happening to the colonies and then sweeping his report under the rug.

Modifié par Chignon, 03 septembre 2010 - 04:39 .

[Sialater]

Chignon wrote...

Sialater wrote...

The Alliance can legally do no more than send Kaidan out to the Colonies. The colonies are outside Citadel Space and outside Alliance jurisdiction entirely. Delan said the colonists (or at least he himself) went out there to get away from The Alliance. Lilith implies the same thing when she's discussing the colonists suspicions of Kaidan with him.


Think about it this way:  if terrorists were to suddenly start blowing up Antarctic bases, no one but the UN could do anything, legally.  And if for some reason, the UN couldn't act either... well... (It's an imperfect analogy... but it's all I got at the moment.)

Legally, yes. But I doubt that they wouldn't lift a finger if human colonies just vanish in thin air. They must be doing something behind the scenes. And why not give Shepard the chance to do it for them if she cuts ties with Cerberus. But again you aren't given the chance to do that. Instead you go back to Cerberus and TIM.

Kaidan was "officially" there to install anti-air turrets on Horizon and improve relations with independent colonies. We know as much from Kaidan and from what Delan implies that he is actually investigating the disappearance of the colonies. Which again, in my opinion, would only make sense if there is more going on then just sending one soldier to look what's happening to the colonies.

True, but then, we go back to the conspiracy theory that Cerberus has not, in fact, gone rogue from the Alliance.  It's just gone "blacker ops."

[Chignon]

I never heard of this theory. I'm curious.



Where does Cerberus going rogue or not from the Alliance play into the Alliance also doing something to investigate and protect the colonists? I mean, I can see why if Cerberus didn't go rogue. But if it didn't?

A political and military contruct as influential and powerful as the Alliance won't always stick to the rules, in my opinion. But this doesn't necessarily mean that Cerberus is still a part of them and is financed by them.

[Giggles_Manically]

I dont care what Cerberus is.

Or who they work for.



I plan on hauling those deluded extremists into the open and bring a Righteous Sodding Hammer down on their heads.



After the Reapers are gone of course, and I steal all of Cerberus' Macguffin that is.

[Chignon]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

I dont care what Cerberus is.
Or who they work for.

I plan on hauling those deluded extremists into the open and bring a Righteous Sodding Hammer down on their heads.

After the Reapers are gone of course, and I steal all of Cerberus' Macguffin that is.

I like the way you think.

(If only because they ruined Kaidan and Shepard's reunion.)

[Elysis]

Chignon wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

I dont care what Cerberus is.
Or who they work for.

I plan on hauling those deluded extremists into the open and bring a Righteous Sodding Hammer down on their heads.

After the Reapers are gone of course, and I steal all of Cerberus' Macguffin that is.

I like the way you think.

(If only because they ruined Kaidan and Shepard's reunion.)

Oh they're going to pay alright.

[Sialater]

Chignon wrote...

I never heard of this theory. I'm curious.

Where does Cerberus going rogue or not from the Alliance play into the Alliance also doing something to investigate and protect the colonists? I mean, I can see why if Cerberus didn't go rogue. But if it didn't?
A political and military contruct as influential and powerful as the Alliance won't always stick to the rules, in my opinion. But this doesn't necessarily mean that Cerberus is still a part of them and is financed by them.

Kahoku claims they've gone rogue from the Alliance in ME1.  But he's the only evidence you get for that assertion.  Not to disparage the deceased, but the man was killed and in a way that makes absolutely no sense to me unless Cerberus was a) a bunch of psychopaths (certainly possible) covering up its Alliance connection.  I'll have to replay the missions with Rachel Shepard to be absolutely certain there is no other evidence, but I really don't remember any.

Miranda says Cerberus is, "privately funded."  The Alliance could very well be one of those private investors. 

Anderson is entirely non-plussed by your sudden appearance from the dead, his email is also waiting for you when you get your ship.  The human coucilor is a powerful individual, but no one , not even Udina, reacts to your resurrection appropriately.  No one registers surprise.  (I'm not going to touch Tali & Garrus & the VS's lack thereof in this post.)   And all he does is go silent on Kaidan's activities.  He doesn't arrest you, certainly within his power, his belief in the Reapers not-with-standing.  He doesn't give you another out, which when you regain your Spectre status, is certainly within his purview as well, he just pats you on your head and sends you on your way.

Then... the most telling part.  TIM claims that he can't tell you where Kaidan is because his file has been rendered "blacker than black ops," if I'm remembering the quote correctly.  Yet, TIM finds out about his presence on Horizon quickly enough to arrange the little demonstration for Shepard.  While it's certainly possible TIM is lying about not knowing anything about Kaidan's whereabouts, the fact that he even knows that Kaidan's got that kind of security around his file is in an indication of very high-up contacts, or collusion within the Alliance itself.

Finally:  it's Martin Sheen.  They're not going to waste that kind of coin on a VA without something major planned, and being a Bond villain is certainly below Sheen's talents.

It's all circumstantial evidence... but that's all we have: conjecture and supposition.  From what I've heard about the books (which I should really get one of these days), there's even more small clues to the connection.

[Joisan]

Chignon wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

I dont care what Cerberus is.
Or who they work for.

I plan on hauling those deluded extremists into the open and bring a Righteous Sodding Hammer down on their heads.

After the Reapers are gone of course, and I steal all of Cerberus' Macguffin that is.

I like the way you think.

(If only because they ruined Kaidan and Shepard's reunion.)

Salroka, I sodding love the way you think!

[Sialater]

Sialater wrote...

Chignon wrote...

I never heard of this theory. I'm curious.

Where does Cerberus going rogue or not from the Alliance play into the Alliance also doing something to investigate and protect the colonists? I mean, I can see why if Cerberus didn't go rogue. But if it didn't?
A political and military contruct as influential and powerful as the Alliance won't always stick to the rules, in my opinion. But this doesn't necessarily mean that Cerberus is still a part of them and is financed by them.

Kahoku claims they've gone rogue from the Alliance in ME1.  But he's the only evidence you get for that assertion.  Not to disparage the deceased, but the man was killed and in a way that makes absolutely no sense to me unless Cerberus was a) a bunch of psychopaths (certainly possible) covering up its Alliance connection.  I'll have to replay the missions with Rachel Shepard to be absolutely certain there is no other evidence, but I really don't remember any.

Miranda says Cerberus is, "privately funded."  The Alliance could very well be one of those private investors. 

Anderson is entirely non-plussed by your sudden appearance from the dead, his email is also waiting for you when you get your ship.  The human coucilor is a powerful individual, but no one , not even Udina, reacts to your resurrection appropriately.  No one registers surprise.  (I'm not going to touch Tali & Garrus & the VS's lack thereof in this post.)   And all he does is go silent on Kaidan's activities.  He doesn't arrest you, certainly within his power, his belief in the Reapers not-with-standing.  He doesn't give you another out, which when you regain your Spectre status, is certainly within his purview as well, he just pats you on your head and sends you on your way.

Then... the most telling part.  TIM claims that he can't tell you where Kaidan is because his file has been rendered "blacker than black ops," if I'm remembering the quote correctly.  Yet, TIM finds out about his presence on Horizon quickly enough to arrange the little demonstration for Shepard.  While it's certainly possible TIM is lying about not knowing anything about Kaidan's whereabouts, the fact that he even knows that Kaidan's got that kind of security around his file is in an indication of very high-up contacts, or collusion within the Alliance itself.

Finally:  it's Martin Sheen.  They're not going to waste that kind of coin on a VA without something major planned, and being a Bond villain is certainly below Sheen's talents.

It's all circumstantial evidence... but that's all we have: conjecture and supposition.  From what I've heard about the books (which I should really get one of these days), there's even more small clues to the connection.

Oh!  I also forgot Jack.  Jack is possibly the biggest indicator of Cerberus still being Alliance, period.  When Jack was being experimented on, Cerberus was still Alliance.    After all, Kahoku was surprised to find that Cerberus had possibly gone rogue only two years ago.  And Jack is obviously much older than that.  The scientists who survived the insurrection of the patients possibly joined The Ascension Program, BAaT's successor. 

The Alliance is responsible for the mess that is Jack, ultimately.

[Jean]

Cerberus has too many gray patches everywhere to simply say "evil!" or "good!". It's in the eye of the beholder. Ask me, I'd rather take Cerberus over the Alliance. I get betrayed, oh well. Seems to be a nice theme in the game.

[sagefic]

Omg, Sia, I love how part of your evidence against Cerberus is that it's Martin Sheen. So true though - "You're voiced by a headliner, therefore you MUST be important."

Sialater wrote...

Kahoku claims they've gone rogue from the Alliance in ME1.  But he's the only evidence you get for that assertion.  Not to disparage the deceased, but the man was killed and in a way that makes absolutely no sense to me unless Cerberus was a) a bunch of psychopaths (certainly possible) covering up its Alliance connection.  I'll have to replay the missions with Rachel Shepard to be absolutely certain there is no other evidence, but I really don't remember any.

you are totally right. kahoku goes off searching and his evidence is squirrley and unclear. also, he's got a bone to pick with cerberus where they killed his squad

Sialater wrote...

Anderson is entirely non-plussed by your sudden appearance from the dead, his email is also waiting for you when you get your ship.  The human coucilor is a powerful individual, but no one , not even Udina, reacts to your resurrection appropriately.  No one registers surprise.  (I'm not going to touch Tali & Garrus & the VS's lack thereof in this post.)   And all he does is go silent on Kaidan's activities.  He doesn't arrest you, certainly within his power, his belief in the Reapers not-with-standing.  He doesn't give you another out, which when you regain your Spectre status, is certainly within his purview as well, he just pats you on your head and sends you on your way.

i cannot decide if i think anderson is aware of cerberus and tolerating them, or against them, or with them or what. i lean to the first, personally, but i don't know. here though, i think TIMmy completely fed info about shepard to break his/her ties with the alliance. i see no other explanation except for his own "they hate you, join me" and that is a crap explanation.

Sialater wrote...

Then... the most telling part.  TIM claims that he can't tell you where Kaidan is because his file has been rendered "blacker than black ops," if I'm remembering the quote correctly.  Yet, TIM finds out about his presence on Horizon quickly enough to arrange the little demonstration for Shepard.  While it's certainly possible TIM is lying about not knowing anything about Kaidan's whereabouts, the fact that he even knows that Kaidan's got that kind of security around his file is in an indication of very high-up contacts, or collusion within the Alliance itself.

totally.

AND let's not forget TIM's blatant lie right alongside his info about kaidan. in one breath he tells you kaidan's file is "surprisingly well classified." - then he tells you "my sources say she [liara] is working for the shadow broker. if so, she can't be trusted."

i mean right there, total lie. he had to know she was on illium and he had to know she wasn't with the SB. first time he said that, i believed him. but after finishing the game once and reading REdemption, i went back and heard that little piece and was like - omg! you LIE!

so yeah. i don't trust anything the man says. he's deliberately playing everyone. 

[Sialater]

I'm fairly certain Anderson's playing the same game. Shep's a (and both her teams are) pawn(s). I go on your first statement. He's aware and tolerates them/has his own agenda.



After all, an organization dedicated to furthering humanity can only help the Alliance in the long run. As long as the Alliance is protected by plausible deniablity.