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[Sialater]

FireEye wrote...

Sialater wrote...

I think the stepping stone should be that we finally get to convince Kaidan that yes, we died. No we weren't working for Cerberus voluntarily. No, we betrayed no one.

I never got the impression that he didn't believe Shepard when she said she died.  And he seemed pretty willing to take her case to the council for her (whether or not his faith was well placed or she never mentioned had she already been there...).

I disagree that Shepard wasn't working for Cerberus voluntarily and that she didn't betray the Alliance, but that's neither here nor there.   (As far as I'm concerned, it's all a matter of personal perspective.)



...

You must've chosen different dialogue choices then, neither my straight Paragon, nor my Paragrade ever got anything to indicate that he believed that she'd died and everything to indicate that he really did think she faked her death.

And no, neither of my Sheps considered themselves working with Cerberus voluntarily.  They were blackmailed into it.  That's not voluntary.

[sagefic]

^ what sia said. i always chose "I didn't have a choice" - neutral option when Kaidan blows up. Shep says, "I was in some kind of coma while Cerberus rebuilt me."

I always took it that she didn't realize at the time how little that conveyed and Kaidan took it as "Cerberus saved me from Alchera so I'm with them now."

However, I keep wondering if some sort of major reveal about Shep's death is upcoming. Everyone is so suspiciously quiet about how it happened and how dead he/she was. Truly, it's just WEIRD.

[Sialater]

sagequeen wrote...

^ what sia said. i always chose "I didn't have a choice" - neutral option when Kaidan blows up. Shep says, "I was in some kind of coma while Cerberus rebuilt me."
I always took it that she didn't realize at the time how little that conveyed and Kaidan took it as "Cerberus saved me from Alchera so I'm with them now."
However, I keep wondering if some sort of major reveal about Shep's death is upcoming. Everyone is so suspiciously quiet about how it happened and how dead he/she was. Truly, it's just WEIRD.

Well, the metagame reason for that is so BW doesn't have a pull a Star Trek with the science.  (Bounce the tachyon beam off the main deflector dish.)   The in-game reason?  TIM insured the only one who knew how it was pulled off was killed, ie, Wilson.  But then, I'm letting my inner conspiracy theorist run amuck again.

There' s just not enough time on Horizon to explain anything adequately.

[Elysis]

Sialater wrote...

TIM insured the only one who knew how it was pulled off was killed, ie, Wilson.  But then, I'm letting my inner conspiracy theorist run amuck again.

I never thought about it that way  I need to enlarge my information about this POV.

Horizon came and left in the blink of an eye. Frustrating much? Back on the Normandy I kept asking myself "Wait, what just happened?". Kaidan better not turn his back on Shepard anymore (though the view is very nice:whistle:).

[FireEye]

Sialater wrote...

You must've chosen different dialogue choices then, neither my straight Paragon, nor my Paragrade ever got anything to indicate that he believed that she'd died and everything to indicate that he really did think she faked her death.

And no, neither of my Sheps considered themselves working with Cerberus voluntarily.  They were blackmailed into it.  That's not voluntary.

From the ingame text, Shepard is voluntarily working with Cerberus.  There is no ingame blackmail or ingame railing against Cerberus other than snide sarcasm and "yeah, whatever you say boss."  Or at least, I haven't found it yet.  Personally, my Shepard wouldn't have gotten as far as Freedom's Progress or even necessarily off Lazarus Station... which is why I say it's a matter of perspective.  Different strokes for different... er... Sheps.

Kaidan's, "I trust you, but I don't trust Cerberus," implies to me that he believes what you say and is reserving professional judgment.  I think you only get it if you ask him to follow you, but I don't remember and I deleted my old save so I can't go and check.  So if you tell him you've been in a coma, he believes that, I guess; or if you tell him you've been clinically dead, I suppose he believes that.

I guess if we ever meet up with him again and he says for certain one way or another, we'll know what he was thinking. 

[Sialater]

There is implied blackmail.  If you want to save the colonists, stop the Reapers, you are blackmailed into working with Cerberus.  The Council won't fund you, the Alliance won't fund you... and running a spaceship is expensive, too expensive to be done alone.  I suppose you could go pirate, but that's not much better than working with Cerberus.  Both my Sheps went against TIM's orders as often as possible.  Hell, they went for Archangel first because Cerberus was insistent that Mordin was more important.

In the dialogue I've written out, verbatim, for Loved (Renegade) and A Paragon of Virtue (Paragon), there is nothing to indicate Kaidan believes you died for real.  Yeah, he "trusts you."  But he also believes Cerberus is feeding you a line of bull**** about your death.  He says they could have lied to you about you dying.  He almost says exactly the same words the Council used. Which we know isn't true, since we saw our Shepard die. 

[FenrisDeSolar]

I never felt black-mailed by Cerberus. I hated them, and didn't want to work for them, but they were willing to help, and I completely believe in a favour for a favour. Save my life, and damn straight I'll work with you. It's the least you can do. If you're not doing it as payback, then at least for your common goal. But anyways.



I kinda interpreted the meeting on Horizon as pure confusion and a resurge of sorrow on Kaidan's part. I mean, you don't really get to explain anything (curse you Bioware, you made me act like a proper b*tch there... is being one in real life not enough or what? ¬_¬) and Kaidan/Ash can only base their reactions on what's in front of them. Which is Shepard - with Cerberus.



And even if you say you don't want to work for Cerberus, you still do, right? If I was in their shoes I'd probably pull a gun on Shepard, so the fact that they took your whole "HAI guize, I'm not dead, LOL!" so well is quite impressive. :/



I dunno. Horizon felt like it had to happen. Kaidan reserves the right to go off on one. I just wish I could pounce him as he walks away. Steal another hug or something before Shepard returns to the Normandy... xD

[sagefic]

but DEAD? i'm sorry. i guess i have a lot of trouble believing that shepard was dead. coma, sure, but DEAD? and everyone's like "oh, yeah first non-divine resurrection ever reported. huh. welcome back."



nuh-uh. i just have a hard time with that. i buy it for the game's sake, but i don't buy it, in many ways.

[Sialater]

Yeah, Sage, but... planetary atmospheric entry is nothing more than a hardsuit is not survivable. Frankly, I'm surprised there was enough left to resurrect. Especially since Shep's helmet falls off at some point.



Fenris: That's part of the blackmail. You can work with them voluntarily, it's in the dialogue. But neither of my Sheps did (Hell, one's a Sole Survivor), and did their best to circumvent TIM as often as possible. If you go straight paragon, Shep's being blackmailed.

[Collider]

Unless there's some revelation in the comics about how Shepard "survived," I just find it something to be taken for granted.

[FenrisDeSolar]

Sialater wrote...

Fenris: That's part of the blackmail. You can work with them voluntarily, it's in the dialogue. But neither of my Sheps did (Hell, one's a Sole Survivor), and did their best to circumvent TIM as often as possible. If you go straight paragon, Shep's being blackmailed.

I fail to see how it's blackmail. Nothing but scripting actually stops Shepard from saying "f*ck this and screw the galaxy!" It is assumed that you, as Shepard, will want to save the Galaxy by whatever means possible, and that is most likely the reason why Shepard will team up with Cerberus. I was annoyed at how strangely conversation with Timmeh would flow though. If you wanted to be pro-Alliance rather than pro-Cerberus, it felt the conversation was... urh. Choppy? I can't explain it, but the conversation didn't feel as natural and flowy as it was in ME1. :/

Kinda like Bioware wanted you to be pro-Cerberus.

Modifié par FenrisDeSolar, 10 septembre 2010 - 04:10 .

[Sialater]

FenrisDeSolar wrote...

Sialater wrote...

Fenris: That's part of the blackmail. You can work with them voluntarily, it's in the dialogue. But neither of my Sheps did (Hell, one's a Sole Survivor), and did their best to circumvent TIM as often as possible. If you go straight paragon, Shep's being blackmailed.

I fail to see how it's blackmail. Nothing but scripting actually stops Shepard from saying "f*ck this and screw the galaxy!" It is assumed that you, as Shepard, will want to save the Galaxy by whatever means possible, and that is most likely the reason why Shepard will team up with Cerberus. I was annoyed at how strangely conversation with Timmeh would flow though. If you wanted to be pro-Alliance rather than pro-Cerberus, it felt the conversation was... urh. Choppy? I can't explain it, but the conversation didn't feel as natural and flowy as it was in ME1. :/

Kinda like Bioware wanted you to be pro-Cerberus.

I categorize things where you're given no other alternative as blackmail.  Awfully black and white of me, I know.

But Kaidan doesn't believe you're working with them as anything other than voluntarily or as a dupe.

[JaerWolfe]

My Shep would not be blackmailed in any way shape or form. There would be a body count first and then the issue of blackmail would be mote. Since the game forces it, I choose to have my Shep look at it as an intel gathering mission that achieves other goals as well. This is her first up close and personal with the man who has manipulated far too much of her life and caused her far too much grief...Kaidan being not the least of it with the manipulation of information Timmy's done there. The more she understands him, the easier it will be to take him out.

[FireEye]

Sialater wrote...

There is implied blackmail.  If you want to save the colonists, stop the Reapers, you are blackmailed into working with Cerberus.  The Council won't fund you, the Alliance won't fund you... and running a spaceship is expensive, too expensive to be done alone.  I suppose you could go pirate, but that's not much better than working with Cerberus.  Both my Sheps went against TIM's orders as often as possible.  Hell, they went for Archangel first because Cerberus was insistent that Mordin was more important.

In the dialogue I've written out, verbatim, for Loved (Renegade) and A Paragon of Virtue (Paragon), there is nothing to indicate Kaidan believes you died for real.  Yeah, he "trusts you."  But he also believes Cerberus is feeding you a line of bull**** about your death.  He says they could have lied to you about you dying.  He almost says exactly the same words the Council used. Which we know isn't true, since we saw our Shepard die. 

I disagree that the colonists or an alleged Collector connection to the Reapers (as inferred by a man I don't trust) is blackmail.  (At least, it's not enough for the  Shep I built in ME1 to get off her recently reconstructed ass and do anything about).  If no one else in the galaxy can pull off what Shepard can, then the galaxy is gonna go under sooner rather than later anyway.

There's nothing to indicate that Kaidan believes you died, but there's nothing to indicate that he doesn't by the end of the conversation (at least as I remember it) either.  And personally I think Cerberus kidnapping or cloning Shepard and implanting false memories (such as being attacked by the Collectors in the intro) makes more sense than the death and ressurection with no apparent explanation or existential consequences that we're given, but that's just me.  So I take Kaidan's side on this one. 

[Sialater]

JaerWolfe wrote...

My Shep would not be blackmailed in any way shape or form. There would be a body count first and then the issue of blackmail would be mote. Since the game forces it, I choose to have my Shep look at it as an intel gathering mission that achieves other goals as well. This is her first up close and personal with the man who has manipulated far too much of her life and caused her far too much grief...Kaidan being not the least of it with the manipulation of information Timmy's done there. The more she understands him, the easier it will be to take him out.

Didn't say it ended at blackmail.   They may have started off being blackmailed, but both went looking for ways to take Cerberus down from the inside, Meghan was a little more determined and successful than Avery.  After all, they spent a great deal of money resurrecting Shepard and the Normandy, their bank account's empty.

But yes, the original set up was emotional blackmail, as I see it.

[fortunesque]

So I guess what we should say is that the writers blackmailed us into being with Cerberus?

[Sialater]

fortunesque wrote...

So I guess what we should say is that the writers blackmailed us into being with Cerberus?

LOL, pretty much.  Got your pitchforks ready?

[JaerWolfe]

Sialater wrote...

JaerWolfe wrote...

My Shep would not be blackmailed in any way shape or form. There would be a body count first and then the issue of blackmail would be mote. Since the game forces it, I choose to have my Shep look at it as an intel gathering mission that achieves other goals as well. This is her first up close and personal with the man who has manipulated far too much of her life and caused her far too much grief...Kaidan being not the least of it with the manipulation of information Timmy's done there. The more she understands him, the easier it will be to take him out.

Didn't say it ended at blackmail.   They may have started off being blackmailed, but both went looking for ways to take Cerberus down from the inside, Meghan was a little more determined and successful than Avery.  After all, they spent a great deal of money resurrecting Shepard and the Normandy, their bank account's empty.

But yes, the original set up was emotional blackmail, as I see it.

A difference in perspectives, then.
My Shep would be more inclined to laugh at whoever was emotionally trying to blackmail her whether at the beginning or the end of it. She wouldn't let the Council do it in ME1 and she's certainly not going to take it from Timmy. She wouldn't take it from Kaidan, but he wouldn't try to emotionally blackmail her, so she's safe there. Horizon proved that.
I have never seen the original set up as emotional blackmail. I saw it as manipulation and a contrived emergency to get my Shep on Cerberus' side. After all, humans have been disappearing for that entire two year nap my Shep's been taking. Freedom's Progress was just the latest. Not the first, not the last. Just the one Timmy uses to get Shep to understand the threat.

[fortunesque]

Sialater wrote...

fortunesque wrote...

So I guess what we should say is that the writers blackmailed us into being with Cerberus?

LOL, pretty much.  Got your pitchforks ready?

Mine's been ready. There's absolutely *no* reason that my Shepard would willingly work with Cerberus. Ever. Honestly, I don't know how to write her into the corner that she was put in with ME2.

[Sialater]

And I see manipulation and a contrived emergency as blackmail. Especially since Freedom's Progress wasn't the first or the last. It was just an illustration.

[Sialater]

fortunesque wrote...

Sialater wrote...

fortunesque wrote...

So I guess what we should say is that the writers blackmailed us into being with Cerberus?

LOL, pretty much.  Got your pitchforks ready?

Mine's been ready. There's absolutely *no* reason that my Shepard would willingly work with Cerberus. Ever. Honestly, I don't know how to write her into the corner that she was put in with ME2.

I had to write Loved because I had to figure it out, myself.

[Jean]

I'm confused. What did Timmy say about Kaidan that was a lie anyways? Only lines I ever remember him saying about him was "his file was surprisingly well classified", which I'm sure it is. Then the line that he was on Horizon.

[fortunesque]

Well, he did intentionally lie about Liara being an agent for the Shadowbroker. He also spread it around that Shepard was with Cerberus (that's where the rumors came from), intentionally to cause a rift between the VS and Shepard.

[FenrisDeSolar]

Timmy is sounding more and more like an old "friend" of mine. ¬_¬



But wow, I like how you put it Fort. The writers blackmailed us into the gaping jaws of Cerberus.

[Sialater]

TIM never lied about anyone but Liara (and possibly not knowing who Archangel really was). Everything he said was the truth "from a certain point of view."



If you're a fan of the Wheel of Time series, he could teach Aes Sedai how to doublespeak.