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[jlb524]

OK...confession time:

I've honestly never Virmired Ash until tonight, but I'm glad I did tonight as it has given me a new insight into both Ashley and Kaidan's characters.

I just think Ash dies better, which means it sounds like she wants to die and is more comfortable with it than Kaidan does/is (he seems...hesitant?). This could mean that Brooks just did a better job in these scenes than Sbarge, but I don't think so (as Sbarge is a great VA).

Or, it could be intentional. Ash seems to have lived a great life...great family and all that, without any regrets except the deal with her grandfather. I think she believes dying on Virmire is not only good for the Alliance (and what a proper Alliance soldier would want) but will also be good for her family, the thing that is most dear to her. Her sisters won't have to live on in the shadow of the Williams' bad name after Virmire. She takes her death with pride and honor.

Kaidan, on the other hand....we don't know much about him. He's a private guy...maybe he has regrets and unsolved issues? Maybe it has to do with his mother? (he never mentions her) He also doesn't seem as willing to die for the Alliance as Ash, and this is understandable, given the crap they put him through in BAat. I'm not knocking Kaidan, as my current Adept Shepard feels the same way and empathizes with this attitude 100%. She also isn't ready to die for the Alliance.

I'm curious to see how this plays out in ME3...if Ash's sacrifice does clear the family name and if we learn more about what troubles Kaidan. Why he has the 'little rain cloud' over his head.

To be honest, I think sacrificing Ash 'fits better' for these reasons....it's more dramatic, plus I think there's a lot more to Kaidan then they let on in ME1, and I find this compelling. I'm not knocking her character, as I save her on my other Shepard all the time.

I'm curious what the Kaidan thread's thoughts are on this? Do you think he's not ready to die on Virmire? (unlike Ash)

Modifié par jlb524, 24 septembre 2010 - 02:34 .

[JaerWolfe]

@jib...I think some of Kaidan's chivalrous streak comes into that hesitation as well. He's the male. Biology has had them protecting the female since we crawled from the goo. I would say that it's against his ingrained sense of self to let a woman sacrifice herself for him.

[fortunesque]

Thank you for your interesting thoughts, J.



I don't think Kaidan wasn't ready to accept death but you may be on to something that Ash almost wanted it in some sort of really delusional way, perhaps to clear her grandfather's name.



He's well aware of the risks but in ME1, the idealistic viewpoint with which he looked at the world has started to melt away. Ash started out jaded; Kaidan is only beginning to see that the Council is not everything he thought it would be.



Maybe that's what you're seeing; his conversations after Virmire show that he is really questioning the things that have been going on. In contrast, Ash has always been questioning.

[jillyfae]

@jib: I never really thought of it as hesitation to die for the mission when I Virmire'd Kaidan. He seemed perfectly able and willing to sacrifice himself for the greater good to me. He seemed more, to me, to not know what to say to make sure Shepard and Williams were ok with what he had to do.

[JaerWolfe]

jillyfae wrote...

@jib: I never really thought of it as hesitation to die for the mission when I Virmire'd Kaidan. He seemed perfectly able and willing to sacrifice himself for the greater good to me. He seemed more, to me, to not know what to say to make sure Shepard and Williams were ok with what he had to do.

Okay, that was so what I was trying to say. Thanks, jilly! You put it much better than I did.

[sagefic]

NICKjnp wrote...

Jade5233 wrote...

Don't forget that TIM tells us that Liara is working for the Shadow Broker when he knows full well that's not true! He out-and-out lied there.

I stopped trusting TIM when he started smoking in front of Shepard.  Smoking is bad for you... and he is a bad role model.

Nick, you are awesome.

@ jlb - cool post, interesting question. i, too, get the sense that Ash's death is something she is okay with. I hear a peace in her voice when you leave her. I think her faith plays a huge role in that. Kaidan, i agree, is...searching, i think. I don't know how else to put it. i also think this is why he seems to deal with shep's death less well than ashley does. he thinks about things a little too much and yet doesn't have any ready answers. i dunno - tha'ts my take.

[NICKjnp]

Celestria129 wrote...

sagequeen wrote...

Reverie wrote...

I played DA first, so I got to know Alistair first. I do find him endearing. However after finally playing ME I much rather prefer Kaidan. Since he's much more of a man and less like a boy. But then I'm almost 30 myself, so maybe that plays into it. I don't know.

I could not speak for others, but this does come into play for me, too. I like Alistair, but as DA:O played out, I was like...oh, I know this guy. I met him in college - several of him. Very charming, completely unreliable. Sorry, that was my take on Alistair. I prefer Kaidan. Even his hissy fit on Horizon was smexy and admirable. 

edit: top of page 1st aid kaidan

*sigh* if only Shep was awake then.....she would have had a Great View:devil::innocent:

And apparently Kaidan can poop rocks.

[Celestria129]

NICKjnp wrote...

Celestria129 wrote...

sagequeen wrote...

Reverie wrote...

I played DA first, so I got to know Alistair first. I do find him endearing. However after finally playing ME I much rather prefer Kaidan. Since he's much more of a man and less like a boy. But then I'm almost 30 myself, so maybe that plays into it. I don't know.

I could not speak for others, but this does come into play for me, too. I like Alistair, but as DA:O played out, I was like...oh, I know this guy. I met him in college - several of him. Very charming, completely unreliable. Sorry, that was my take on Alistair. I prefer Kaidan. Even his hissy fit on Horizon was smexy and admirable. 

edit: top of page 1st aid kaidan
*Pic Snip*

*sigh* if only Shep was awake then.....she would have had a Great View:devil::innocent:

And apparently Kaidan can poop rocks.

lol did not see that untill you said it.....i guess I was to busy looking else where

[TheodoricFriede]

It seems to me that it actually makes more sense to Vermire Ashley then Kaiden.

I mean, who do you send to arm the bomb, a tech expert, or a soldier? Who do you save, the tech expert with the bomb that's instrumental to the mission, or the soldier who is serving as a diversion?

[jlb524]

I didn't see it as a gender thing, but a personal thing...the difference between the two characters. I don't think Kaidan is as comfortable with the idea of dying there on Virmire as Ash is.



Like fort says, Kaidan's worldview has changed a lot over the course of ME1, while Ash was always more set in her beliefs. I'm taking this from a non-romanced perspective for both characters (I know Ash can change if romanced).



I still think Kaidan is fine with the sacrifice, as it's his duty, but he isn't as at peace when he dies as Ash is (at least, that's my feeling). It's like, he still has a lot on his mind and wants/needs to figure it out as a lot has change for him, while Ash is completely 100% resolved to dying for the Alliance right there, as that's what she's wanted. I don't think the events of ME1 changed Ash as much as Kaidan. Even with a non-romanced Kaidan, you can see the 'wheels turning in his head' when you speak with him as he's learning how to deal with the events.



I also think there's a key difference in how the Alliance personally treated both of them. The Alliance is slighting Ashley's family, not really her personally. She can fix this easily with a heroic sacrifice. With Kaidan, he had to suffer mistreatment b/c he happened to be biotically gifted. There's no easy way to fix that. Plus, as I mentioned, we don't get to learn as much about his past and what makes him tick. With Ash, she wears her emotions/beliefs on her sleeve, so it's easier to figure out her motivations. I don't think this is true with Kaidan...he's still a bit of a mystery (to me, at least as I've never romanced him...is it different if you do?) I still think he's more uneasy there on Virmire, but...that's just my interpretation.

[Jade5233]

TheodoricFriede wrote...

It seems to me that it actually makes more sense to Vermire Ashley then Kaiden.
I mean, who do you send to arm the bomb, a tech expert, or a soldier? Who do you save, the tech expert with the bomb that's instrumental to the mission, or the soldier who is serving as a diversion?

Don't forget also the horrible statistics for survival of biotic children.
Add to that Kaidan's an L2--one that is sane and "fully functional"--probably one of the strongest biotics the Alliance has (since L2's generally spike higher than L3's except for Shepard).
That's a resource you don't just throw away either.

[Celestria129]

sagequeen wrote...

@ jlb - cool post, interesting question. i, too, get the sense that Ash's death is something she is okay with. I hear a peace in her voice when you leave her. I think her faith plays a huge role in that. Kaidan, i agree, is...searching, i think. I don't know how else to put it. i also think this is why he seems to deal with shep's death less well than ashley does. he thinks about things a little too much and yet doesn't have any ready answers. i dunno - tha'ts my take.

Agree, never really thought about it that much at the time but it makes since. Now that i realy think about it, and have me1 fresh in my mind again, i had the feeling that even when Kaidan opened up to shep that there was still something more then he was telling you......some reason it makes me like him more.....it's like he wants to share something with Shep but maybe with everything going on he does not want to add to the wieght already on her shoulders.......did i just make any sence lol

[TheodoricFriede]

Jade5233 wrote...

Don't forget also the horrible statistics for survival of biotic children.
Add to that Kaidan's an L2--one that is sane and "fully functional"--probably one of the strongest biotics the Alliance has (since L2's generally spike higher than L3's except for Shepard).
That's a resource you don't just throw away either.

Well, i dont like viewing one person as particularly more valuable then another person, i was just thinking on a purely logical standpoint. But yes thats true, even on Shepards team, an incredibly powerfull biotic with potent skills in technology will be more valuable then a soldier.

Also i dont like Ashley, shes kind of a bigot. Kaiden was enlightened.

[fortunesque]

jlb524 wrote...


I also think there's a key difference in how the Alliance personally treated both of them. The Alliance is slighting Ashley's family, not really her personally. She can fix this easily with a heroic sacrifice. With Kaidan, he had to suffer mistreatment b/c he happened to be biotically gifted. There's no easy way to fix that. Plus, as I mentioned, we don't get to learn as much about his past and what makes him tick. With Ash, she wears her emotions/beliefs on her sleeve, so it's easier to figure out her motivations. I don't think this is true with Kaidan...he's still a bit of a mystery (to me, at least as I've never romanced him...is it different if you do?) I still think he's more uneasy there on Virmire, but...that's just my interpretation.

I think he's a lot more open to a romanced Shepard. He's definitely more warm to her. 

From what he's gone through from being a biotic, he's used to holding people at arm's length. Through his romance he gradually becomes at ease with Shepard as she loosens him up.

I think with Virmire, it's not a case of him being not ready to make the ultimate sacrifice. I think it's Ash almost wanting to make that sacrifice instead of being merely willing. 

[oenis]

I saved Kaidan the first time because I rolled as a Soldier and I didn't need another one.

Also, I like Kaidan.

[jillyfae]

@jib You do get a bit more out of Kaidan if you romance him, (or at least if you're romance potential, and playing fShep rather than mShep), which would color most of our impressions of him.

I agree that Ashley's dedication to dying for the Alliance, to being a hero and redeeming her family's name, is very forthright and upfront and hard-to-miss. She does give the impression she wants to be a martyr. (Especially when you save her, and she yells at you, saying she's just a grunt with a gun, which isn't what you need to fight Reapers.)

Kaidan, otoh, while perfectly willing to die a good soldier, doesn't have the same desire for heroic redemption, and thus comes across as more hesitant.

(And I think everyone's voice work on Virmire was spectacular. Hale, Brooks, Sbarge... But Sbarge could read a grocery list and I'd be happy.)

[sagefic]

TheodoricFriede wrote...

Jade5233 wrote...

Don't forget also the horrible statistics for survival of biotic children.
Add to that Kaidan's an L2--one that is sane and "fully functional"--probably one of the strongest biotics the Alliance has (since L2's generally spike higher than L3's except for Shepard).
That's a resource you don't just throw away either.

Well, i dont like viewing one person as particularly more valuable then another person, i was just thinking on a purely logical standpoint. But yes thats true, even on Shepards team, an incredibly powerfull biotic with potent skills in technology will be more valuable then a soldier.

Also i dont like Ashley, shes kind of a bigot. Kaiden was enlightened.

I don't think Ashley is a bigot. I really don't. She's inexperienced with aliens, but she rightly is suspicious of their motivations. Wrex WILL try to kill shep on virmire, for example. Ash is just a little less experienced than Kaidan, that's all.

[jlb524]

Brodyaha wrote...

@jlb--very interesting point! On my next FemShep playthrough I'm Virmiring Kaidan, so I will listen to his voice and listen if there's apprehension or not. I do admit though Ashley genuinely seems to mean it when she says, "I don't regret a thing."

I don't think he's apprehensive (I might have worded it poorly) but he just lacks something Ash has.  Ash seems satisfied that you choose to sacrifice her....she's proud of it.  Proud to be dying for the Alliance and for her family.  Kaidan doesn't have that (from my interpretation).  

I'm not knocking Kaidan in any way (as I said, the Shepard I am RPing here is just like him).  But I think this goes to further differentiate the two characters (Ash/Kaidan)....they should react differently to the situation. 

I always thought it would 'feel' the same, but it didn't, and I like that.  Ash is 100% ready to die, while Kaidan is only 80% ready (in my mind).  So, I start to wonder 'why'?  I think I know why Ash is ready, but not sure with Kaidan, so it adds a level of mystery and depth to the character, and makes me curious what will happen to him come ME3 or DLC.

I know they both acted the same on Horizon, but I hope that BW wouldn't continue that crap in the future, as they are most definitely different characters with different personalities and motivations.

[jillyfae]

sagequeen wrote...

I don't think Ashley is a bigot. I really don't. She's inexperienced with aliens, but she rightly is suspicious of their motivations. Wrex WILL try to kill shep on virmire, for example. Ash is just a little less experienced than Kaidan, that's all.

And being worried about having non-military personnel on a fancy classified prototype vessel?  Perfectly reasonable.  I like Ashley.  She's just a little paranoid about anyone not Alliance.  And yes, younger and less experienced than Alenko and Shepard.  

[Celestria129]

jlb524 wrote...

Brodyaha wrote...

@jlb--very interesting point! On my next FemShep playthrough I'm Virmiring Kaidan, so I will listen to his voice and listen if there's apprehension or not. I do admit though Ashley genuinely seems to mean it when she says, "I don't regret a thing."

I don't think he's apprehensive (I might have worded it poorly) but he just lacks something Ash has.  Ash seems satisfied that you choose to sacrifice her....she's proud of it.  Proud to be dying for the Alliance and for her family.  Kaidan doesn't have that (from my interpretation).  

I'm not knocking Kaidan in any way (as I said, the Shepard I am RPing here is just like him).  But I think this goes to further differentiate the two characters (Ash/Kaidan)....they should react differently to the situation. 

I always thought it would 'feel' the same, but it didn't, and I like that.  Ash is 100% ready to die, while Kaidan is only 80% ready (in my mind).  So, I start to wonder 'why'?  I think I know why Ash is ready, but not sure with Kaidan, so it adds a level of mystery and depth to the character, and makes me curious what will happen to him come ME3 or DLC.

I know they both acted the same on Horizon, but I hope that BW wouldn't continue that crap in the future, as they are most definitely different characters with different personalities and motivations.

AGREE!!!!!

[jlb524]

jillyfae wrote...

@jib You do get a bit more out of Kaidan if you romance him, (or at least if you're romance potential, and playing fShep rather than mShep), which would color most of our impressions of him.
I agree that Ashley's dedication to dying for the Alliance, to being a hero and redeeming her family's name, is very forthright and upfront and hard-to-miss. She does give the impression she wants to be a martyr. (Especially when you save her, and she yells at you, saying she's just a grunt with a gun, which isn't what you need to fight Reapers.)
Kaidan, otoh, while perfectly willing to die a good soldier, doesn't have the same desire for heroic redemption, and thus comes across as more hesitant.
(And I think everyone's voice work on Virmire was spectacular. Hale, Brooks, Sbarge... But Sbarge could read a grocery list and I'd be happy.)

Yes, I think you hit on what I was trying to say with the difference between the two.  I've always played FemShep too (just romance Liara), so I do get to learn more about Kaidan than if I only play MShep.

And like you said, both VAs are awesome (Brooks and Sbarge), so the difference isn't that Sbarge blew it or Brooks over-acted or whatever.  There is a difference there.  Back when they allowed Kaidan and Ash to act differently

[TheodoricFriede]

sagequeen wrote...

I don't think Ashley is a bigot. I really don't. She's inexperienced with aliens, but she rightly is suspicious of their motivations. Wrex WILL try to kill shep on virmire, for example. Ash is just a little less experienced than Kaidan, that's all.

In ME2 she flat out says, "I dont like aliens" that spells bigotry to me. And while yes wrex points a gun at you, Ashley will kill him right as he starts to see your point of view. But this isnt the "I Hate Ashley Club," so lets not dwell on that.
What i liked about Kaiden is that dispite having a horrible expirience with an alien, he doesnt resort to bigotry.

[jlb524]

fortunesque wrote...

I think he's a lot more open to a romanced Shepard. He's definitely more warm to her. 

From what he's gone through from being a biotic, he's used to holding people at arm's length. Through his romance he gradually becomes at ease with Shepard as she loosens him up.

But, do you get the impression that he's fully opened up, or do you think that there is more there?  More to learn about him?  Are there things he's keeping from Shepard that we will learn about when BW finally gives him a proper role beyond ME1?

fortunesque wrote...
I think with Virmire, it's not a case of him being not ready to make the ultimate sacrifice. I think it's Ash almost wanting to make that sacrifice instead of being merely willing. 

Yeah, I think that's it...the difference.  He's willing, but not as 'gung ho' as Ash is.