63501 réponses à ce sujet

[sagefic]

TheodoricFriede wrote...

sagequeen wrote...

I don't think Ashley is a bigot. I really don't. She's inexperienced with aliens, but she rightly is suspicious of their motivations. Wrex WILL try to kill shep on virmire, for example. Ash is just a little less experienced than Kaidan, that's all.

In ME2 she flat out says, "I dont like aliens" that spells bigotry to me. And while yes wrex points a gun at you, Ashley will kill him right as he starts to see your point of view. But this isnt the "I Hate Ashley Club," so lets not dwell on that.
What i liked about Kaiden is that dispite having a horrible expirience with an alien, he doesnt resort to bigotry.

this is true - and one of the things that makes him an interesting character. i think some people see that as "cheese" good guy. i see it as very interesting and curious that he would take that point of view.

but yeah, kaidan is a subtle character. a lot of people don't appreciate that (having just been poking around deviant art where i saw yet another anti-kaidan pic. meh.)

[fortunesque]

jlb524 wrote...

fortunesque wrote...

I think he's a lot more open to a romanced Shepard. He's definitely more warm to her. 

From what he's gone through from being a biotic, he's used to holding people at arm's length. Through his romance he gradually becomes at ease with Shepard as she loosens him up.

But, do you get the impression that he's fully opened up, or do you think that there is more there?  More to learn about him?  Are there things he's keeping from Shepard that we will learn about when BW finally gives him a proper role beyond ME1?

He's fully opened up at that point. There's definitely more to learn about him but at the time that they finally hook up, he's open to Shepard. I think that we know the majority of Kaidan's baggage and that he's not keeping anything from Shepard at that point.

Of course there is a lot more information that we don't know about him. We know nothing of his hobbies or his family, like we know of Ash. Also it's very safe to assume that he'll be cautious with Shepard for a while after what happened on Horizon. 

[oenis]

sagequeen wrote...

this is true - and one of the things that makes him an interesting character. i think some people see that as "cheese" good guy. i see it as very interesting and curious that he would take that point of view.

but yeah, kaidan is a subtle character. a lot of people don't appreciate that (having just been poking around deviant art where i saw yet another anti-kaidan pic. meh.)

I don't know why some people see that as cheese ... it's a valuable life lesson. We all need to learn to judge people as individuals instead of grouping them together. It's really wise IMO. When we start hating groups of people based on nothing but stereotypes, that is when society becomes ugly and dangerous.

[oenis]

Grr double post.

Modifié par oenis, 24 septembre 2010 - 03:35 .

[jlb524]

fortunesque wrote...

He's fully opened up at that point. There's definitely more to learn about him but at the time that they finally hook up, he's open to Shepard. I think that we know the majority of Kaidan's baggage and that he's not keeping anything from Shepard at that point.

Of course there is a lot more information that we don't know about him. We know nothing of his hobbies or his family, like we know of Ash. Also it's very safe to assume that he'll be cautious with Shepard for a while after what happened on Horizon. 

Hmmm....do you want there to be more to Kaidan, though?  Speaking as a Liaramancer, I found it refreshing that they took her in a unforseen direction in ME2.  Unfortunately, I don't think they did much with Kaidan and Ash in ME2 (how could they with one crappy 3 minute scene?)  This should be rectified, given the popularity of both characters.  I guess I'm wondering if you want the ME1 Kaidan exactly, or for them to show something a bit different from what was shown before?  Not OOC, but just more that's there with the character that was not shown in ME1.

My idea was with his family also...he doesn't mention his mother...perhaps it's a sore spot that he's not willing to share until the romance gets deeper in future installments? 

I just find this 'mysterious Kaidan' idea appealing for some reason.  I don't think it's a bad thing that he hasn't revealed everything yet.  I think he will be more cautious with revealing stuff to Shepard, more so than Ash (who seems to let everything out and wear it on her sleeve).  I just find that really appealing in a character.  A riddle to be solved.  

[fortunesque]

jlb524 wrote...

Hmmm....do you want there to be more to Kaidan, though?  Speaking as a Liaramancer, I found it refreshing that they took her in a unforseen direction in ME2.  Unfortunately, I don't think they did much with Kaidan and Ash in ME2 (how could they with one crappy 3 minute scene?)  This should be rectified, given the popularity of both characters.  I guess I'm wondering if you want the ME1 Kaidan exactly, or for them to show something a bit different from what was shown before?  Not OOC, but just more that's there with the character that was not shown in ME1.

My idea was with his family also...he doesn't mention his mother...perhaps it's a sore spot that he's not willing to share until the romance gets deeper in future installments? 

I just find this 'mysterious Kaidan' idea appealing for some reason.  I don't think it's a bad thing that he hasn't revealed everything yet.  I think he will be more cautious with revealing stuff to Shepard, more so than Ash (who seems to let everything out and wear it on her sleeve).  I just find that really appealing in a character.  A riddle to be solved.  

Honestly, I don't want them to fill in details of his family. I find it more poignant that he doesn't mention them; some of us sense a disconnect between Kaidan and his family. He does mention his mother in a throwaway line on Noveria, "Mom was right; I should have brought a sweater." The other line about his family is after Eden Prime, "Besides, my father served... it made him proud when I enlisted *mumble* eventually." 

I think a little bit of a fleshing out would be nice with him. There needs to be some more of the kinds of flirty romance lines that LotSB had; it would add something lighthearted to an extremely 'heavy' relationship. 

As far as changes are concerned, I'd hope that he is much less idealistic in ME3. It wouldn't make sense for him to still be as strongly supportive of the Council as he was in ME1. 

[syllogi]

jlb524 wrote...

fortunesque wrote...

He's fully opened up at that point. There's definitely more to learn about him but at the time that they finally hook up, he's open to Shepard. I think that we know the majority of Kaidan's baggage and that he's not keeping anything from Shepard at that point.

Of course there is a lot more information that we don't know about him. We know nothing of his hobbies or his family, like we know of Ash. Also it's very safe to assume that he'll be cautious with Shepard for a while after what happened on Horizon. 

Hmmm....do you want there to be more to Kaidan, though?  Speaking as a Liaramancer, I found it refreshing that they took her in a unforseen direction in ME2.  Unfortunately, I don't think they did much with Kaidan and Ash in ME2 (how could they with one crappy 3 minute scene?)  This should be rectified, given the popularity of both characters.  I guess I'm wondering if you want the ME1 Kaidan exactly, or for them to show something a bit different from what was shown before?  Not OOC, but just more that's there with the character that was not shown in ME1.

My idea was with his family also...he doesn't mention his mother...perhaps it's a sore spot that he's not willing to share until the romance gets deeper in future installments? 

I just find this 'mysterious Kaidan' idea appealing for some reason.  I don't think it's a bad thing that he hasn't revealed everything yet.  I think he will be more cautious with revealing stuff to Shepard, more so than Ash (who seems to let everything out and wear it on her sleeve).  I just find that really appealing in a character.  A riddle to be solved.  

Oh, I definitely want to learn more about Kaidan, but I don't want him to change too much, or become GRIMDARK to "un-wussify" him for the haters.  I also would appreciate his exposition in ME3 *not* come in the form of a mission where he has to help a family member.

I do like the "mystery" surrounding him, and I think it's in his nature to not talk about himself too much -- I think sharing his experience at Jump Zero was a huge deal to him, but it was important that he try to explain to Shepard why he was worried, and to show her where he was coming from.  He's not a braggart or a gossip, and he doesn't just share with anyone, but he respects and cares for Shepard, even if not a love interest.  It's refreshing and different to have a character that you kind of have to make an effort to get to know.

Kaidan also has humility, which adds to his mystique, and confuses the hell out of some people too.  It is very un-Western nowadays to NOT want to appear badass and blow your own horn, but Kaidan seems like the type who does just that.  He's the guy who will fix the problem while everyone else is busy whining about it, and not take credit, because he doesn't want to call attention to himself.

When you think about, it's kind of crazy that they even made a male character like that, who wasn't the main protagonist.

[jlb524]

fortunesque wrote...

Honestly, I don't want them to fill in details of his family. I find it more poignant that he doesn't mention them; some of us sense a disconnect between Kaidan and his family. He does mention his mother in a throwaway line on Noveria, "Mom was right; I should have brought a sweater." The other line about his family is after Eden Prime, "Besides, my father served... it made him proud when I enlisted *mumble* eventually." 

Oh, I see...I felt the same disconnect there.  He doesn't talk about them much for some reason.

fortunesque wrote...
I think a little bit of a fleshing out would be nice with him. There needs to be some more of the kinds of flirty romance lines that LotSB had; it would add something lighthearted to an extremely 'heavy' relationship. 

Yeah, they need to do the same with Kaidan.  I think the LotSB romance stuff was well received, along with the DLC as a whole.  I would hope they pay attention and would implement something similar in a DLC involving Kaidan, as well as a friendship path.  Both were well done in the LotSB DLC and most fans agree with that.

fortunesque wrote...
As far as changes are concerned, I'd hope that he is much less idealistic in ME3. It wouldn't make sense for him to still be as strongly supportive of the Council as he was in ME1. 

I think that would warrant a proper and interesting change in the character.  Especially if he gets to sit down and really talk to Shepard, and she can vent about how the Council has basically let her out to dry, again, with the Collectors.

I also have a strange feeling that Kaidan (or Ashley) will eventually ditch the Alliance to join up with Shepard again in ME3, who will be independent of the Alliance/Council/Cerberus/etc.  They are investigating Cerberus for the Alliance (which was my impression from the Horizon scene), it may be that they find something unsettling, that the Alliance is more tied to Cerberus than they like.  IDK, I think that could be a good way to get Kaidan back into Shepard's crew.

[jlb524]

TeenZombie wrote...

Oh, I definitely want to learn more about Kaidan, but I don't want him to change too much, or become GRIMDARK to "un-wussify" him for the haters.  I also would appreciate his exposition in ME3 *not* come in the form of a mission where he has to help a family member.

That's a good point.  People tend to think they did this with Liara's character, though I don't really agree with that interpretation. 

TeenZombie wrote...

I do like the "mystery" surrounding him, and I think it's in his nature to not talk about himself too much -- I think sharing his experience at Jump Zero was a huge deal to him, but it was important that he try to explain to Shepard why he was worried, and to show her where he was coming from.  He's not a braggart or a gossip, and he doesn't just share with anyone, but he respects and cares for Shepard, even if not a love interest.  It's refreshing and different to have a character that you kind of have to make an effort to get to know.

Yeah, I don't think any mystery involving Kaidan should be something 'dark and troubling', but just seemingly small things that he will share once the romance/friendship becomes more involved and resolved in ME3 or DLC.  Like you said, it's something about his character you have to make an effort to find out.  But not something as he secretly hates turians or loves Cerberus as that would be OOC.

TeenZombie wrote...

Kaidan also has humility, which adds to his mystique, and confuses the hell out of some people too.  It is very un-Western nowadays to NOT want to appear badass and blow your own horn, but Kaidan seems like the type who does just that.  He's the guy who will fix the problem while everyone else is busy whining about it, and not take credit, because he doesn't want to call attention to himself.

When you think about, it's kind of crazy that they even made a male character like that, who wasn't the main protagonist.

Yes, I appreciate his humility.  There's not many characters like that.  He's a very nuanced character that I didn't fully appreciate at first, to be honest.  However, thinking about, he's an interesting juxtaposition against most of the ME crew in both games and a breath of fresh air.  Someone who's there for the mission and puts it above any personal hangups.  

[Nightodie]

I don't know if I found Kaidan that disconnected from his family.

I feel he is connected fully to this thread though....

/uploads_user/1621000/1620963/41292.jpg


And he is a medic and all....

[Aslanasadi]

...and he is sexy

[Aslanasadi]

TeenZombie wrote...


Oh, I definitely want to learn more about Kaidan, but I don't want him to change too much, or become GRIMDARK to "un-wussify" him for the haters.  I also would appreciate his exposition in ME3 *not* come in the form of a mission where he has to help a family member.

I do like the "mystery" surrounding him, and I think it's in his nature to not talk about himself too much -- I think sharing his experience at Jump Zero was a huge deal to him, but it was important that he try to explain to Shepard why he was worried, and to show her where he was coming from.  He's not a braggart or a gossip, and he doesn't just share with anyone, but he respects and cares for Shepard, even if not a love interest.  It's refreshing and different to have a character that you kind of have to make an effort to get to know.

Kaidan also has humility, which adds to his mystique, and confuses the hell out of some people too.  It is very un-Western nowadays to NOT want to appear badass and blow your own horn, but Kaidan seems like the type who does just that.  He's the guy who will fix the problem while everyone else is busy whining about it, and not take credit, because he doesn't want to call attention to himself.

When you think about, it's kind of crazy that they even made a male character like that, who wasn't the main protagonist.

@ Teen, I love what you wrote...and I feel about the same way....and I think that's what makes him so special...and adorable



Kaidan is just the best man for femshep...

[Chignon]

sagequeen wrote...

but yeah, kaidan is a subtle character. a lot of people don't appreciate that (having just been poking around deviant art where i saw yet another anti-kaidan pic. meh.)

Morning!

Noticed the anti-Kaidan pics, too. Mostly memes. A lot by people who romance Garrus, too. I'm not trying to imply that everyone who romanced Garrus bashes Kaidan, it's just something I noticed specifically on dA. Aaand I don't get it - is it because they are so different?

Definitely not an anti-Kaidan pic:

[FireEye]

Chignon wrote...

Noticed the anti-Kaidan pics, too. Mostly memes. A lot by people who romance Garrus, too. I'm not trying to imply that everyone who romanced Garrus bashes Kaidan, it's just something I noticed specifically on dA. Aaand I don't get it - is it because they are so different?

I was wondering if it had something to do with Kaidan being the only romancable male in ME1.  From comments, I got the impression that a lot of people who wanted to romance Garrus romanced Kaidan instead because he was there (for the achievement, because they accidentally triggered the romance, or because they wanted a romance even if they didn't want Kaidan, and so were "stuck with him").  I thought this might have led to a cognitive dissonance backlash, particularly after romancing Garrus was possible.  Horizon was unlikely to have helped matters.

Although this applies to only the subset of Garrus fans that fit this model.  Not all Garrus fans hate on Kaidan; not all people who hate on Kaidan are Garrus fans; and not all Garrus fans who romanced Kaidan and dislike him have cognitive dissonance. 

Definitely not an anti-Kaidan pic:

Yay!



...

[Aslanasadi]

It's sad, that people just love to bash Kaidan...I don't understand it...
I just ignore them...it's not worth to be noticed....imo

Modifié par Aslanasadi, 24 septembre 2010 - 09:58 .

[syllogi]

Aslanasadi wrote...

It's sad, that people just love to bash Kaidan...I don't understand it...
I just ignore them...it's not worth to be noticed....imo

Yeaaah...I really don't like bashing, and it sucks that there is so much negativity on deviantart and the masseffect community on LiveJournal towards Kaidan, it makes it unpleasant to even look at the positive fan art and fiction sometimes, because I'm dreading the comments the haters and immature people will inevitably make.  I do get really, really happy, though, when I see new (non-hater) Kaidan fan art, so it's hard to stay away for too long.

I've heard all the reasons why people hate Kaidan, or why people who romanced him hate him now.  Some of the reasons are valid, and some of them are ridiculous, but I wish they'd keep their opinions to themselves, or at least in private groups, especially if they're representing other love interest fandoms while doing so.  I do like other characters, even if I don't romance them, and I'd rather stay blissfully ignorant and think that everyone gets along.

But the good, positive fanart is really good, so that balances things out.  

[sevalaricgirl]

I have to say that I'm a huge Kaidan fan and it kills me that they didn't have him in ME2. I'm just now playing through it. Played ME1 in about 20 hours. Took me about a week. I'm addicted to the games. I've never been addicted to role playing games, but ME has me wrapped around Bioware's little finger. I want Kaidan DLC. I don't know if I can wait another year plus for ME3 to come out. I was with Kaidan all the way in one and will be in 2. I'm thinking that I'll just be disappointed in ME3 if I romance someone else and Bioware decides to not put them in the game. Frankly, I would have rather seen Kaidan in ME2 than some of the new characters. I think that the crew should have stayed together.

[Chignon]

FireEye wrote...

Chignon wrote...

Noticed the anti-Kaidan pics, too. Mostly memes. A lot by people who romance Garrus, too. I'm not trying to imply that everyone who romanced Garrus bashes Kaidan, it's just something I noticed specifically on dA. Aaand I don't get it - is it because they are so different?

I was wondering if it had something to do with Kaidan being the only romancable male in ME1.  From comments, I got the impression that a lot of people who wanted to romance Garrus romanced Kaidan instead because he was there (for the achievement, because they accidentally triggered the romance, or because they wanted a romance even if they didn't want Kaidan, and so were "stuck with him").  I thought this might have led to a cognitive dissonance backlash, particularly after romancing Garrus was possible.  Horizon was unlikely to have helped matters.

Although this applies to only the subset of Garrus fans that fit this model.  Not all Garrus fans hate on Kaidan; not all people who hate on Kaidan are Garrus fans; and not all Garrus fans who romanced Kaidan and dislike him have cognitive dissonance.   

You're probably right with that, FireEye.

Definitely not an anti-Kaidan pic:

*pic snip*

Yay!

*pic snip*

...

That never gets old, does it?

TeenZombie wrote...


Yeaaah...I really don't like bashing, and it sucks that there is so much negativity on deviantart and the masseffect community on LiveJournal towards Kaidan, it makes it unpleasant to even look at the positive fan art and fiction sometimes, because I'm dreading the comments the haters and immature people will inevitably make.  I do get really, really happy, though, when I see new (non-hater) Kaidan fan art, so it's hard to stay away for too long.

Yes, you're spot on with the negativity on dA. I didn't post there for a long time because of it.

Modifié par Chignon, 24 septembre 2010 - 03:14 .

[Chignon]

Double post, sorry.

Modifié par Chignon, 24 septembre 2010 - 02:18 .

[NamiraWilhelm]

Kaidan makes me wish we could have Virtual Reality in our homes

...so long as there's no chance of anyone walking in

[Mox Ruuga]

Liara's stock seems to have gotten a big boost after LotSB, even some who detested her before are now liking or even loving her romance and character.

If done well, the same should be easily possible for Kaidan (and Ash).

Let's just hope Bioware invests the same care and and attention on the DLC / ME3 appearance... And assigns the proper writing talent. This latter bit seems to have had a huge impact. Compare Liara written by Mac Walters (vanilla ME2 and ME: Redemption) vs. Liara written by Patrick Weekes (LotSB).

I don't know who wrote Kaidan in ME1 (does anyone?), but if s/he isn't available any more, perhaps they should consider Weekes for the job as well. Or hire out someone from the Dragon Age writing team.

But my main point was... if we get a LotSB quality story for Ash and Kaidan, I expect their popularity to rise quite a bit among this benighted fandom.

[Chignon]

I just hope Bioware won't do it on the cost of a 180° personality shift of Kaidan like they did with Liara from ME1 to ME2, Mox. :/

[Daewan]

Brodyaha wrote...

I expect to see character development for him, perhaps slightly depressed. But to turn into a hardened, bitter person who sudden uses his biotics willy-nilly and will kill people to get what he wants wouldn't be good character development. :S
I do hope he keeps giving advice to Shepard to help him/her, and that he keeps his logical manner in analyzing situations like the rachni.

Is it wrong that I think a slightly hardened and bitter Kaidan would be super sexy?  I don't think he would kill people randomly like some blue chick we know, though.  But I can see him losing some of his wide-eyed sparkly innocence.  That whole bit about watching your commanding officer (and possible lover) die to save you should change a man.