63501 réponses à ce sujet

[Nightodie]

I usually don't get into the Horizon thing because - well yeah:



That being said - think of Shepard's dialog this way... Maybe six or eight weeks before she was in bed with this man... He just about said she was the most important thing in his life.  She has been trying to find him - but no one would help.  She has been told by friends that it's been two years, she has no reason to believe he hasn't moved on... so she doesn't want him to know how desperately she wants him back if he has moved on, because he could be totally over her and she would feel awful but wouldn't want him to know.  She wouldn't want to mess up anything new he had - and ultimately doesn't want to hurt him... Meanwhile nervous as hell & wanting to jump his bones! Knowing that she is in fact working with this horrible organization & also so relieved that he is not in the Collector's ship.

With all this going on in her mind after the hug, she was lucky she could even form words!

Modifié par Nightodie, 23 octobre 2010 - 01:43 .

[Chignon]

I think what bugs most people is just that while this is how we as the player justify how Shepard acted on Horizon, there's nothing in game that does. We simply don't have the option to express how relieved Shepard is at having found Kaidan, seeing him again and that being the reason she said what she said. Not while talking with him or with someone else after Horizon.
Kelly doesn't really count as she'll ask the same question a Shepard who didn't romance Kaidan and Joker is ... well, Joker.

It's just Shepard standing there like a brick, sprouting lines like "How've you been?" and Kaidan getting angry.

Modifié par Chignon, 23 octobre 2010 - 11:04 .

[Jade5233]

Chignon wrote...
[snip]
It's just Shepard standing there like a brick, sprouting lines like "How've you been?" and Kaidan getting angry.

Yeah.  I mean, I see what you are saying, Night, about Shepard not wanting to mess things up if Kaidan had moved on, etc.
But she just went through hell on Horizon battling the Collectors to try to save him--I know that she's supposed to be there for the colonists, but for my Shepard's, if they are honest, saving Kaidan was first and foremost.  Then that Collector ship takes off and her heart sinks, thinking she may have lost him forever.  Then he appears.  Even if she felt only friendship for him, wouldn't she be happier and more relieved to see him.  My Shepards, given the opportunity, would have run to him, thrown her arms around him and thanked God that he was safe--regardless of friendship vs. relationship status.
"How'va been" isn't only lame.  Its cold.  No wonder the poor guy becomes angry.  There's so much even self-controlled Kaidan can take in one day.

[Joisan]

Jade5233 wrote...
My Shepards, given the opportunity, would have run to him, thrown her arms around him and thanked God that he was safe--regardless of friendship vs. relationship status.

This, this, this!

[Star]

Joisan wrote...

Jade5233 wrote...
My Shepards, given the opportunity, would have run to him, thrown her arms around him and thanked God that he was safe--regardless of friendship vs. relationship status.

This, this, this!

I agree with you. This is more what my Shepard would have done as well. However,  I don't think the game gives either one of them -- Shep or Kaidan - very good dialogue or behavior options. 

We're talking about how Shep would react but I also think Kaidan acted rather poorly.  Here you have a man who's felt the loss of a lover so deeply that he's numb. (Apparently) throwing himself into work so he doesn't have to think, can't date, doesn't have a life.  He goes to Horizon to investigate rumors that she might be alive.  That would normally bring hope.  I can see how he might not want to allow himeself to hope but still -- hope does tend to spring eternal as the saying goes.  So he sees her, hugs her and all he can do is get pissed off and reject her?  I don't think so. 

Realistically I think they would have sat down together and hashed things out.  Even if he decided not to join her I don't believe either one of them would have left the planet without really talking  - and not in front of a crowd -whether they were friends or lovers. 

[Chignon]

Jade5233 wrote...

*snip*

"How'va been" isn't only lame.  Its cold.  No wonder the poor guy becomes angry.  There's so much even self-controlled Kaidan can take in one day.

I agree completely, Jade! And to think the other choices were just as bad or worse. I always pick the neutral option - it's the lesser of the three evils, so to say.
 
I had to reload several times to get a half decent conversation with Kaidan.

[Nightodie]

Hey I know it isn't popular... but that's what makes me not you.



So I won't even get into the fact that she is also angry Kaidan didn't listen and WALKED AWAY.



But I am with Star... there are so many things about it that don't make sense. Including the hug...



Hey just ignore me ... I'm okay with that.



Horizon... yeah I should have just posted my picture and shut up... I will never learn...

[Star]

Nightodie wrote...

Hey I know it isn't popular... but that's what makes me not you.

So I won't even get into the fact that she is also angry Kaidan didn't listen and WALKED AWAY.

But I am with Star... there are so many things about it that don't make sense. Including the hug...

Hey just ignore me ... I'm okay with that.

Horizon... yeah I should have just posted my picture and shut up... I will never learn...

We wouldn't dream of ignoring you, Night!    And I have to agree with you.  Shep would be very relieved and certainly not blase about seeing Kaidan again!

Modifié par Star58, 23 octobre 2010 - 02:10 .

[Jade5233]

I responded to you Night.



And we are all allowed to have differing opinions. I think what we see on screen is heavily colored by our own view and role play of our Shepards. Which is difficult for me because I'm just as frustrated as Kaidan is over her apparent coolness. I think he may have been more open to listen to what Shepard had to say if she had seemed at all happy to see him/more welcoming. I think it wasn't until his disappointment in her lack of reaction that the anger set in. At least, that's what I see when I watch the animation of his face.

this is how I saw what Kaidan felt in that scene:

Pain and rejection.



Betrayal and anger.



Disillusionment and disbelief.



Disappointment and distancing of himself.

[Star]

Jade5233 wrote...

I responded to you Night.

And we are all allowed to have differing opinions. I think what we see on screen is heavily colored by our own view and role play of our Shepards. Which is difficult for me because I'm just as frustrated as Kaidan is over her apparent coolness. I think he may have been more open to listen to what Shepard had to say if she had seemed at all happy to see him/more welcoming. I think it wasn't until his disappointment in her lack of reaction that the anger set in. At least, that's what I see when I watch the animation of his face.
this is how I saw what Kaidan felt in that scene:
Pain and rejection.

Betrayal and anger.

Disillusionment and disbelief.

Disappointment and distancing of himself.

Whoa...didn't get an  impression anyone was suggesting we couldn't differ.

So...to follow on the conversation.  Yes, it is a highly frustrating conversation!!!

I think our impressions are often colored by not only what we're seeing on screen, but how we interpret responses in RL as well as what we're hoping to have happen.  I know that happens for me.  In my work in RL, I'm trained to look at responses in a variety of ways which is why I tend to see him a bit differently -- not just hurt but also wanting to hurt.  That's often what angry and hurt people do unfortunately.  So when I see his response, I get it but I note that he's using blame and not really taking much responsibility for his own behavior.  Makes me want to sit them down for couples therapy!

[Chignon]

Nightodie wrote...

Hey I know it isn't popular... but that's what makes me not you.

So I won't even get into the fact that she is also angry Kaidan didn't listen and WALKED AWAY.

But I am with Star... there are so many things about it that don't make sense. Including the hug...

Hey just ignore me ... I'm okay with that.

Horizon... yeah I should have just posted my picture and shut up... I will never learn...

No, don't ever think that, Night.

It's just that I'm angry at my Shepard for being so stonefaced during something which should have been a highly emotional moment. I don't understand her behaviour in the slightest and I can't justify it for myself. 
Bioware prides itself on making characters look expressive and wants to "get away from dialogue" in the future - I hope they don't use Horizon as their model because they clearly failed here.

Modifié par Chignon, 23 octobre 2010 - 02:48 .

[Star]

@ Chig - I really love your avi. I play on an xbox so I don't have screen shots to transfer over here. Shenzi actually made my ME2 avi that I've used on the forum. Anyway, I really like yours!

[Shenzi]

Chignon wrote...

Nightodie wrote...

Hey I know it isn't popular... but that's what makes me not you.

So I won't even get into the fact that she is also angry Kaidan didn't listen and WALKED AWAY.

But I am with Star... there are so many things about it that don't make sense. Including the hug...

Hey just ignore me ... I'm okay with that.

Horizon... yeah I should have just posted my picture and shut up... I will never learn...

No, don't ever think that, Night.

It's just that I'm angry at my Shepard for being so stonefaced during something which should have been a highly emotional moment. I don't understand her behaviour in the slightest and I can't justify it for myself. 
Bioware prides itself on making characters look expressive and wants to "get away from dialogue" in the future - I hope they don't use Horizon as their model because they clearly failed here.

As I've said many times before on this thread in my opinion the concept of Horizon is great, but the actual execution of it just sucks.  It's just so  poorly written and animated that it comes off as just a cheesy plot device aimed at giving the player justification for trying out one of the ME2 romances if they so choose.

Modifié par Shenzi, 23 octobre 2010 - 02:54 .

[Star]

Shenzi wrote...

*snip*  As I've said many times before on this thread in my opinion the concept of Horizon is great, but the actual execution of it just sucks.  It's just so  poorly written and animated that it comes off as just a cheesy plot device aimed at giving the player justification for trying out one of the ME2 romances if they so choose.

This! !  

[Chignon]

Star58 wrote...

@ Chig - I really love your avi. I play on an xbox so I don't have screen shots to transfer over here. Shenzi actually made my ME2 avi that I've used on the forum. Anyway, I really like yours!

Thank you, Star!

I made it from this screenshot:



And a Kaidan to make up for being off topic:




EDIT:

Brodyaha wrote...

*snip*

Hopefully my post makes sense.

It doesn't only make sense, it's awesome. Wunderbar, Brody.

Modifié par Chignon, 23 octobre 2010 - 03:23 .

[Star]

Brodyaha wrote...

Chignon wrote...
We simply don't have the option to express how relieved Shepard is at having found Kaidan....

It's just Shepard standing there like a brick, sprouting lines like "How've you been?" and Kaidan getting angry.

QFT.

But really, there should've been more options so, as Chignon says, Shepard didn't come off as some brick.

Yes there should have been more options, but to my mind your arguments further support Shenzi's in that the whole thing is calculated to create an opportunity for Shep to romance someone else.

[Reverie]

Star58 wrote...

Yes there should have been more options, but to my mind your arguments further support Shenzi's in that the whole thing is calculated to create an opportunity for Shep to romance someone else.

Pretty much. I want to analyze the whole Horizon thing a bit, but then realize that in the end it was just their way of pushing them aside for shiny new romances. Even so I don't hate all the ME2 romances though just wish they did Horizon a bit better.

[Star]

Brodyaha wrote...

@Star--you have a point, although I think BioWare has had love interests in their games since BG or KOTOR, and they just presented the opportunity for ME2 players as well.

I've played some ME2 games--no imports---and imported a save that didn't romance either Ash or Kaid, and Horizon still pans out the same. Horizon is a plot device whether Ash or Kaid is romanced or not.

But I've heard that Liara fans were also mad at how she was treated in ME2--kind of sidelined, treated Shep coldly--but I think she got a better cameo than Ash or Kaid, so I have no complaints on how she was treated per say.

So maybe BioWare wanted to guide us to trying ME2 romances, or they were so caught up in all the new characters and making ME2 as sexy as possible, that Ash, Kaidan, and Liara were put to the wayside. A third option: they just wanted to guide us astray to surprise us with their epicness for the future (I think Liara now has an important, epic role established for ME3, so one down, two to go).

I am personally hoping it's option three.

Yeah - I remember the first romance that David G. wrote (Anomen in Baldur's Gate) and how much flack he got over the way the character was presented.   ( For those interested, here's a link to a website where he was hosting a discussion of the romance just after BG II was released:  http://www.gamejag.n...omance-romance/)

I think there's been a lot of change as Bioware has grown and been taken over by EA.  So many things are possible in regards to intent and presentation. I really don't disagree with anything you've said -- I guess I just think the rationale for why we got what we got probably has many elements including  a bit of cheesy plot device both with the romances as well as separately to encourage us to move on from our ME1 team and try out the "new sexy characters," a way to "save" the ME1 characters so that they could appear in ME3 and hopefully, provide an epic and romantic finish to the trilogy. 

Yes -- I'm with you. I'm also hoping for epicness!

Modifié par Star58, 23 octobre 2010 - 03:54 .

[Chignon]

Brodyaha wrote...

*snip*
But I've heard that Liara fans were also mad at how she was treated in ME2--kind of sidelined, treated Shep coldly--but I think she got a better cameo than Ash or Kaid, so I have no complaints on how she was treated per say.

So maybe BioWare wanted to guide us to trying ME2 romances, or they were so caught up in all the new characters and making ME2 as sexy as possible, that Ash, Kaidan, and Liara were put to the wayside. A third option: they just wanted to guide us astray to surprise us with their epicness for the future (I think Liara now has an important, epic role established for ME3, so one down, two to go).

I am personally hoping it's option three.

You're welcome.

I also think Liara got the better cameo. You know where she is and what she is doing. You can even help her out with not only one but two small missions. Whereas we know next to nothing about Kaidan - except that he wanted to report back to the Citadel.

That is not to say that Liara fans weren't right to complain. As I said before, I played ME2 first and it was hard to believe that the Liara of ME2 is the same as the one of ME1. 

Modifié par Chignon, 23 octobre 2010 - 03:57 .

[FireEye]

Star58 wrote...
He goes to Horizon to investigate rumors that she might be alive.

He's there to investigate Cerberus, not Shepard.  I kinda pick up that he wants to believe, but doesn't believe, the rumors that she's alive and I think he most definitely didn't expect to see her (which he's happy about, but not about the Cerberus).

Anyhow.

I take Kaidan's side in the Horizon argument, mostly because I agree with everything he said, mostly because I'm disappointed in the ME2 writing elsewhere as well as there, mostly because I think the "working with Cerberus, not for them" is semantic nonsense, and partially because... well, if I were in his shoes, there probably would have been a biotic temper tantrum.  :innocent:

[Chignon]

FireEye wrote...

*snip*

I take Kaidan's side in the Horizon argument, mostly because I agree with everything he said, mostly because I'm disappointed in the ME2 writing elsewhere as well as there, mostly because I think the "working with Cerberus, not for them" is semantic nonsense, and partially because... well, if I were in his shoes, there probably would have been a biotic temper tantrum.  :innocent:

I couldn't agree more, Fire!

[Selenora]

I dont deal with Horizon very well......as.....i dont deal at all........

I have 4 canons (ok i play ME1 too much ) and only 1 of them managed to finish the game.

1 of them is just before Horizon and the other 2 not even imported

I didnt Know about horizon when i started playing ME2 (I dont like spoilers) and horizon was just...a nightmare for me....i ragequited for months before i continue playing again.

I tried all the LI in ME2 with a non imported char recently (cant cheat on Kaidan) and i deleted them all

And my Sheps certainly didnt get over kaidan at all.or its just me that didnt get over kaidan at all

I LOVE the guy.......i mean.my sheps .not me )))