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[catabuca]

Thanks chem, I did try that but didn't bring anything other than femshep/kaidan stuff up. I'll try again, perhaps my searching skills aren't up to scratch atm

Modifié par catabuca, 21 décembre 2010 - 02:49 .

[Selenora]

I wrote it in Ash's thread and i'll repeat it here:



'The real problem is that Ash is a really NORMAL human being. and thats not acceptable in the minds of boys that think they really ARE as badass as the heroes they play in their games.'



So ofc Kaidan/Ash are boring. If they were any ANY other alien spieces they would be so interesting even if they were tottaly mute or had 4 heads.

[Lord Zeuss]

Selenora wrote...

I wrote it in Ash's thread and i'll repeat it here:

'The real problem is that Ash is a really NORMAL human being. and thats not acceptable in the minds of boys that think they really ARE as badass as the heroes they play in their games.'

So ofc Kaidan/Ash are boring. If they were any ANY other alien spieces they would be so interesting even if they were tottaly mute or had 4 heads.

Testify! Too many characters in ME2 were superheroes. Are real people supposed to relate to Thane or Samara in any kind of tangible way?

[chem light]

Selenora wrote...

I wrote it in Ash's thread and i'll repeat it here:

'The real problem is that Ash is a really NORMAL human being. and thats not acceptable in the minds of boys that think they really ARE as badass as the heroes they play in their games.'

So ofc Kaidan/Ash are boring. If they were any ANY other alien spieces they would be so interesting even if they were tottaly mute or had 4 heads.

QFT

[Chignon]

I wrote it before but I will do so again: I played ME2 first and I thought Ash and Kaidan were a breath of fresh air in a game series that was otherwise mostly saturated with "badasses".

[Xilizhra]

Selenora wrote...

I wrote it in Ash's thread and i'll repeat it here:

'The real problem is that Ash is a really NORMAL human being. and thats not acceptable in the minds of boys that think they really ARE as badass as the heroes they play in their games.'

So ofc Kaidan/Ash are boring. If they were any ANY other alien spieces they would be so interesting even if they were tottaly mute or had 4 heads.

Is it not possible to not find them that interesting without that factor?
I think a problem is that they had no quests that ever went into their background or accomplished a personal goal: Garrus had Dr. Saleon, Wrex had his armor, Tali had the geth retrieval, Liara had the Noveria thing...
I think another problem with Kaidan at least is that he has no goals and no ambition. Ashley wants to see her name redeemed, Garrus is trying to find his place in how to save the galaxy, Wrex has repressed desires to help his people, Tali's got the Pilgrimage and living up to her own father... Liara, at least, has a personal investment in Shepard and the Protheans, and seems more into this specific mission than anyone else. But Kaidan is just kinda... there.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 21 décembre 2010 - 03:22 .

[Selenora]

Xilizhra wrote...

Selenora wrote...

I wrote it in Ash's thread and i'll repeat it here:

'The real problem is that Ash is a really NORMAL human being. and thats not acceptable in the minds of boys that think they really ARE as badass as the heroes they play in their games.'

So ofc Kaidan/Ash are boring. If they were any ANY other alien spieces they would be so interesting even if they were tottaly mute or had 4 heads.

Is it not possible to not find them that interesting without that factor?
I think a problem is that they had no quests that ever went into their background or accomplished a personal goal: Garrus had Dr. Saleon, Wrex had his armor, Tali had the geth retrieval, Liara had the Noveria thing...
I think another problem with Kaidan at least is that he has no goals and no ambition. Ashley wants to see her name redeemed, Garrus is trying to find his place in how to save the galaxy, Wrex has repressed desires to help his people, Tali's got the Pilgrimage and living up to her own father... Liara, at least, has a personal investment in Shepard and the Protheans, and seems more into this specific mission than anyone else. But Kaidan is just kinda... there.

Not his fault tho that he has no side quest, is it?
Actually i love him for that. That he has no ambitions other to serve the Alliance.

Modifié par Selenora, 21 décembre 2010 - 03:24 .

[Xilizhra]

Not his fault tho that he has no side quest, is it?

Actually i love him for that. That he has no ambitions other to serve the Alliance.

But he doesn't even seem personally committed to or passionate about that (until Horizon, anyway), it's just a job. To me, he seems a bit like a generic grunt who hallucinated that I was giving him signals.

It's not that I dislike him, I just don't find him terribly engaging. I also suspect that Ashley is in a way the "canon" VS, with the way Horizon was presented (Phoenix Armor, Kaidan trying to shoot seekers with an assault rifle of all things instead of using his biotics, etc.).

[Selenora]

Xilizhra wrote...

Not his fault tho that he has no side quest, is it?
Actually i love him for that. That he has no ambitions other to serve the Alliance.

But he doesn't even seem personally committed to or passionate about that (until Horizon, anyway), it's just a job. To me, he seems a bit like a generic grunt who hallucinated that I was giving him signals.
It's not that I dislike him, I just don't find him terribly engaging. I also suspect that Ashley is in a way the "canon" VS, with the way Horizon was presented (Phoenix Armor, Kaidan trying to shoot seekers with an assault rifle of all things instead of using his biotics, etc.).

I can see only Liara passionate about what shes doing, but no one else. Thats not a negative tho. and i could say the same about hallucinating about Liara too, you know.  And about Ash being the canon VS, i can say that: as fem players are only 20% and not all romanced kaidan in ME1 how can it be any other way?

[Chignon]

Xilizhra wrote...

But he doesn't even seem personally committed to or passionate about that (until Horizon, anyway), it's just a job. To me, he seems a bit like a generic grunt who hallucinated that I was giving him signals.

Going back to the Alliance after what happened at BAaT, serving the Alliance for over ten years and committing mutiny with Shepard in order to save the galaxy aren't signs enough that he is committed and passionate about what he does?

[Lord Zeuss]

Xilizhra wrote...

Not his fault tho that he has no side quest, is it?
Actually i love him for that. That he has no ambitions other to serve the Alliance.

But he doesn't even seem personally committed to or passionate about that (until Horizon, anyway), it's just a job. To me, he seems a bit like a generic grunt who hallucinated that I was giving him signals.
It's not that I dislike him, I just don't find him terribly engaging. I also suspect that Ashley is in a way the "canon" VS, with the way Horizon was presented (Phoenix Armor, Kaidan trying to shoot seekers with an assault rifle of all things instead of using his biotics, etc.).

Sure he's committed, just less showy about it. And I think anyone who romanced Kaidan would have a bone to pick with 'he's not passionate about anything'.

It's Kaidan's way to be quiet and reserved, but he definitely has strong opinions. I've never done the romance with him and I still know this.

As far as him using a gun and not biotics against the seeker swarms, uh, I don't really see why he wouldn't. Biotics aren't the solution to everything, they're just another tool. Now certainly I think he would have tried to use a biotic barrier to shiled himself and some of the colonists (of course, then the scene breaks because they would have *been* protected from the seeker swarms, but I digress), but he still needs a gun to provide cover fire.

[Selenora]

Lord Zeuss wrote...

Sure he's committed, just less showy about it. And I think anyone who romanced Kaidan would have a bone to pick with 'he's not passionate about anything'..

Ohhh you can ask anyone around here about how passionate he really is in other....aspects lol

[Xilizhra]

I can see only Liara passionate about what shes doing, but no one else. Thats not a negative tho. and i could say the same about hallucinating about Liara too, you know. And about Ash being the canon VS, i can say that: as fem players are only 20% and not all romanced kaidan in ME1 how can it be any other way?

Liara may be the only one passionate about the mission, but the others are passionate about something. I'll concede the Liara thing, though; having squadmates try to initiate romance has always bugged me (except in the case of Liara and Leliana, obviously).

Going back to the Alliance after what happened at BAaT, serving the Alliance for over ten years and committing mutiny with Shepard in order to save the galaxy aren't signs enough that he is committed and passionate about what he does?

Since the entire crew does that, it doesn't stand out much from a narrative perspective.

Sure he's committed, just less showy about it. And I think anyone who romanced Kaidan would have a bone to pick with 'he's not passionate about anything'.

I didn't, and that's something of a flaw of the story structure: your interactions with characters only go to their deepest level if you romance them.

[Sialater]

Selenora wrote...

Commander Kurt wrote...


BTW, am I the only one who's really annoyed about the middle option often being the one making most sense in ME2? I just played Horizon, and choosing carefully I realized that there doesn't have to be yelling and accusations and stupid comments AT ALL. One or two paragon and the rest middle option and that exchange went rather well. But few people will play it that way because then you loose paragon/renegade points.

I have chosen the middle options but still had the: you betrayed me line

Me, too.  And you still get the past tense "loved."

[Selenora]

Sialater wrote...

Selenora wrote...

Commander Kurt wrote...


BTW, am I the only one who's really annoyed about the middle option often being the one making most sense in ME2? I just played Horizon, and choosing carefully I realized that there doesn't have to be yelling and accusations and stupid comments AT ALL. One or two paragon and the rest middle option and that exchange went rather well. But few people will play it that way because then you loose paragon/renegade points.

I have chosen the middle options but still had the: you betrayed me line

Me, too.  And you still get the past tense "loved."

Sia, grab a glass of wine..or maybe a bottle.......ok....even better the whole store ....its gonna be a loooooooong year

[Chignon]

Xilizhra wrote...

Going back to the Alliance after what happened at BAaT, serving the Alliance for over ten years and committing mutiny with Shepard in order to save the galaxy aren't signs enough that he is committed and passionate about what he does?

Since the entire crew does that, it doesn't stand out much from a narrative perspective.

I didn't realise that Ash, Wrex, Liara, Garrus and Tali went through BAat and still went back to the Alliance to serve. And if the entire crew stands by Shepard that should tell you that they are all committed and passionate about the mission. Kaidan included.

[Sialater]

Selenora wrote...

Sialater wrote...

Selenora wrote...

Commander Kurt wrote...


BTW, am I the only one who's really annoyed about the middle option often being the one making most sense in ME2? I just played Horizon, and choosing carefully I realized that there doesn't have to be yelling and accusations and stupid comments AT ALL. One or two paragon and the rest middle option and that exchange went rather well. But few people will play it that way because then you loose paragon/renegade points.

I have chosen the middle options but still had the: you betrayed me line

Me, too.  And you still get the past tense "loved."

Sia, grab a glass of wine..or maybe a bottle.......ok....even better the whole store ....its gonna be a loooooooong year

Can't.  I've got fics to write.  If I take any longer on the update to A Paragon of Virtue, Shenzi's going to hunt me down.

[Lord Zeuss]

Selenora wrote...

Sialater wrote...

Selenora wrote...

Commander Kurt wrote...


BTW, am I the only one who's really annoyed about the middle option often being the one making most sense in ME2? I just played Horizon, and choosing carefully I realized that there doesn't have to be yelling and accusations and stupid comments AT ALL. One or two paragon and the rest middle option and that exchange went rather well. But few people will play it that way because then you loose paragon/renegade points.

I have chosen the middle options but still had the: you betrayed me line

Me, too.  And you still get the past tense "loved."

Sia, grab a glass of wine..or maybe a bottle.......ok....even better the whole store ....its gonna be a loooooooong year

Or a beer, if you want. The Ashaholics go through like a case per day.

[Xilizhra]

Chignon wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Going back to the Alliance after what happened at BAaT, serving the Alliance for over ten years and committing mutiny with Shepard in order to save the galaxy aren't signs enough that he is committed and passionate about what he does?

Since the entire crew does that, it doesn't stand out much from a narrative perspective.

I didn't realise that Ash, Wrex, Liara, Garrus and Tali went through BAat and still went back to the Alliance to serve. And if the entire crew stands by Shepard that should tell you that they are all committed and passionate about the mission. Kaidan included.

I reiterate, narrative perspective. I believe that all of them are committed: Kaidan, however, being a squadmate, should stand out more.
As for the BAaT stuff, I was unclear in my response, and I apologize for that. I do sort of wish that he'd explained why he still served in the Alliance despite this, though.

[Selenora]

Ok. Here's the thing...(Too much Alistair in here )

I love Kaidan coz he's normal and sensitive, and human and introverted ans silent and.......

i dont need a super hero badass, or the saviour of the galaxy or the saviour of the spieces or whatever. I need a strong human being just to stand by me. Thats why i love him.

[Selenora]

Lord Zeuss wrote...
Or a beer, if you want. The Ashaholics go through like a case per day.

I just notived your sig and was about to say: Garret who?

[syllogi]

Xilizhra wrote...

Not his fault tho that he has no side quest, is it?
Actually i love him for that. That he has no ambitions other to serve the Alliance.

But he doesn't even seem personally committed to or passionate about that (until Horizon, anyway), it's just a job. To me, he seems a bit like a generic grunt who hallucinated that I was giving him signals.
It's not that I dislike him, I just don't find him terribly engaging. I also suspect that Ashley is in a way the "canon" VS, with the way Horizon was presented (Phoenix Armor, Kaidan trying to shoot seekers with an assault rifle of all things instead of using his biotics, etc.).

I absolutely found him to be committed to the Alliance in the first game.  If you've seen the "Renegage Kaidan" conversations, he doesn't just agree to everything a Renegade Shepard says like a puppy dog, he argues, passionately even, on the side of trusting the Alliance and the Council, and getting along with aliens.  He only starts to agree with Shepard's point of view later in the game, after he's had time to think about things, and events have made him see another side of things.

And he doesn't tell Shepard about Jump Zero because he just likes telling stories -- each conversation is directly related to his opinion of the current mission -- he's, in fact, the only one sharing his past *only* to give advice to Shepard, and let him/her know why he thinks the way he does.  Everyone else has their own agenda, but Kaidan is there to be the second in command to Shepard, and he performs above and beyond duty.  You can't say the same for Miranda, for instance, or Jacob.  They do not have the same level of trust in Shepard, or exhibit the same kind of caring when they tell Shepard about themselves...there is always a level of self interest. 

Kaidan possesses selflessness and humility, which are admirable traits to me, but many players seem to interpret as weakness and blandness.  I understand why not everyone is going to jump out of their seats while talking to Kaidan, and it's very true that players who don't romance him aren't going to get as much out of the interactions, but he's definitely worth getting to know.

And as for Ashley being the "canon" VS, she is, in the same way that Sheploo is "canon" and female characters are hidden in marketing, along with human male love interests like Kaidan and Jacob...so what?  I still think he's the best romance for me, and I'm hoping for the best for his character in ME3.  It's all I can do right now.

[Xilizhra]

I absolutely found him to be committed to the Alliance in the first game. If you've seen the "Renegage Kaidan" conversations, he doesn't just agree to everything a Renegade Shepard says like a puppy dog, he argues, passionately even, on the side of trusting the Alliance and the Council, and getting along with aliens. He only starts to agree with Shepard's point of view later in the game, after he's had time to think about things, and events have made him see another side of things.

Being highly Paragon, I never did see that.

And he doesn't tell Shepard about Jump Zero because he just likes telling stories -- each conversation is directly related to his opinion of the current mission -- he's, in fact, the only one sharing his past *only* to give advice to Shepard, and let him/her know why he thinks the way he does. Everyone else has their own agenda, but Kaidan is there to be the second in command to Shepard, and he performs above and beyond duty. You can't say the same for Miranda, for instance, or Jacob. They do not have the same level of trust in Shepard, or exhibit the same kind of caring when they tell Shepard about themselves...there is always a level of self interest.

I'll concede that. Kaidan is definitely caring. To clarify, I do like him (I liked him more after I killed Ashley in one playthrough, as I stopped seeing him as disposable), I just don't love him.

[Selenora]

Xilizhra wrote...

I absolutely found him to be committed to the Alliance in the first game. If you've seen the "Renegage Kaidan" conversations, he doesn't just agree to everything a Renegade Shepard says like a puppy dog, he argues, passionately even, on the side of trusting the Alliance and the Council, and getting along with aliens. He only starts to agree with Shepard's point of view later in the game, after he's had time to think about things, and events have made him see another side of things.

Being highly Paragon, I never did see that.

And he doesn't tell Shepard about Jump Zero because he just likes telling stories -- each conversation is directly related to his opinion of the current mission -- he's, in fact, the only one sharing his past *only* to give advice to Shepard, and let him/her know why he thinks the way he does. Everyone else has their own agenda, but Kaidan is there to be the second in command to Shepard, and he performs above and beyond duty. You can't say the same for Miranda, for instance, or Jacob. They do not have the same level of trust in Shepard, or exhibit the same kind of caring when they tell Shepard about themselves...there is always a level of self interest.

I'll concede that. Kaidan is definitely caring. To clarify, I do like him (I liked him more after I killed Ashley in one playthrough, as I stopped seeing him as disposable), I just don't love him.

I dont love Liara, but i consider her a a trustworthy friend never the less.

[meonlyred]

Chignon wrote...
You can show her your support on dA, too.  

Thx Chignon!