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[syllogi]

magelet wrote...

chem light wrote...
I like the dichotomy .  "We shall hate Kaidan because he is gay.  We shall also hate him because he hates lesbians."  Make up your mind, trolls!

...Hates lesbians? Where do they even get that from?

By saying "I didn't realize you were..." when speaking to FemShep about a Liara romance conflict, apparently Kaidan is saying that he hates lesbians.

Fun fact:  I actually did go back to old threads on the BSN and the old Bioware forums to get more accurate quotes for all of these.  I didn't even to get to use all of the ones I found.  Did you know that Kaidan deserves to die because he's sweaty (or greasy looking) when you visit him at his station?  And Ashley deserves to die because she has a funny nose!

[Sialater]

That Bingo cracks me up.

[fortunesque]

TeenZombie wrote...

magelet wrote...

chem light wrote...
I like the dichotomy .  "We shall hate Kaidan because he is gay.  We shall also hate him because he hates lesbians."  Make up your mind, trolls!

...Hates lesbians? Where do they even get that from?

By saying "I didn't realize you were..." when speaking to FemShep about a Liara romance conflict, apparently Kaidan is saying that he hates lesbians.

Fun fact:  I actually did go back to old threads on the BSN and the old Bioware forums to get more accurate quotes for all of these.  I didn't even to get to use all of the ones I found.  Did you know that Kaidan deserves to die because he's sweaty (or greasy looking) when you visit him at his station?  And Ashley deserves to die because she has a funny nose!

Yep. Apparently by attempting to be sensitive to Shepard's sexuality, it makes Kaidan homophobic. 

Interestingly enough, every time I've seen someone go on about thinking this way about him, they've grossly misquoted him as saying, "I did't think you were one of *those*" They probably don't even bother to try to get the quote right because some people are just looking for reasons to be offended. 

[AkodoRyu]

I was, too, surprised by the amount of Kaidan hate on the old forums at the beginning of 2010. The "he hates lesbians" thing went often with "didn't want a threesome". "He didn't want a threesome, so I reloaded and saved Ashley"... >_>

Ashley has a pretty nose. Actually, hate towards Ashley struck me more than towards Kaidan. The amount and virulence of "accusations" against her is just horrible.

Modifié par AkodoRyu, 03 janvier 2011 - 06:19 .

[meonlyred]

magelet wrote...

chem light wrote...
I like the dichotomy .  "We shall hate Kaidan because he is gay.  We shall also hate him because he hates lesbians."  Make up your mind, trolls!

...Hates lesbians? Where do they even get that from?

I guess they are referring to this. Where he starts to say something to the effect of gay or lesbian then stops to say something more polite, which I feel fits with his character. It has less to do with him hating lesbian and more to do with him being jealous and confused.

Sorry for the heartbreaking video is the only one that I could find short enough to get the point across.

EDIT: he doesn't want a threesome cause he is looking for love, not a fling. I know it is hard to believe, but not all males are looking for sexual conquest.

Modifié par meonlyred, 03 janvier 2011 - 07:09 .

[Melindil]

All of the irrational hate toward Ash and Kaidan really is horrible. I always feel like people are grasping for excuses to justify why they don't like the characters or why they chose to kill the character on Virmire.

And I don't know if it's my sleep-derived brain coming up with all kinds of ridiculous theories about everything, but sometimes I wonder if the hate isn't rooted in something of which people aren't consciously aware. For instance, is all the hate toward Ash the result of the fact that she's a woman who can beat your ass and is totally cool being independent and not being a damsel in distress and doesn't actually *need* Shepard? Is the hate toward Kaidan the result of the fact that he isn't the testosterone-touting brosef who doesn't really have emotions and is going to want to go seek ale and wenches with you after the mission's done and maybe start a couple of bar brawls? I mean, we have archetypes of what males and females should be in games, books, and film and Kaidan and Ash defy those in a lot of ways, as many people have pointed out. Is the hate due to the fact that they (Ashley especially) don't fit into stereotypical roles for characters in video games and the fact that they aren't really catering to the video game consumer base?

I may also be completely cracked out and seeing things that aren't there and trying to rationalize something that has no logic to it at all.

Modifié par Melindil, 03 janvier 2011 - 07:15 .

[Melindil]

meonlyred wrote...

I guess they are referring to this. Where he starts to say something to the effect of gay or lesbian then stops to say something more polite, which I feel fits with his character. It has less to do with him hating lesbian and more to do with him being jealous and confused.

Sorry for the heartbreaking video is the only one that I could find short enough to get the point across.

EDIT: he doesn't want a threesome cause he is looking for love, not a fling. I know it is hard to believe, but not all males are looking for sexual conquest.

I actually really like that scene, minus the entire rejecting Kaidan bit.

[fortunesque]

Melindil wrote...

meonlyred wrote...

I guess they are referring to this. Where he starts to say something to the effect of gay or lesbian then stops to say something more polite, which I feel fits with his character. It has less to do with him hating lesbian and more to do with him being jealous and confused.

Sorry for the heartbreaking video is the only one that I could find short enough to get the point across.

EDIT: he doesn't want a threesome cause he is looking for love, not a fling. I know it is hard to believe, but not all males are looking for sexual conquest.

I actually really like that scene, minus the entire rejecting Kaidan bit.

I do too. He's understandably flustered; he's in an awkward situation. I mean, he's got a thing for his commander, who might in fact turn out to be a lesbian. It's not the fact that she's gay that's awkward; it's that he was possibly waaaaay off the mark with her.  And I don't understand how him trying to find a non-offensive, diplomatic and non-awkward word should offend anyone. 

Like I said a few posts ago, some people are just looking for a reason to be offended. 

[Chignon]

TeenZombie wrote...

Fun fact:  I actually did go back to old threads on the BSN and the old Bioware forums to get more accurate quotes for all of these.  I didn't even to get to use all of the ones I found.  Did you know that Kaidan deserves to die because he's sweaty (or greasy looking) when you visit him at his station?  And Ashley deserves to die because she has a funny nose!

If Kaidan looks sweaty in that scene what does that make Shepard?

[meonlyred]

@Melindil
I think you are on to something. I believe I made this point on KAAS, but both Kaidan and Ashely can not be summed up into a couple words like other characters in the game. Some people don't have the patience to look deeper into the character when talking to them. They don't see that Kaidan tells Shepard about his experience at BAat as a warning against hasty decision making. Or that Ashley is looking for a friend and acceptance for who she and not who her grandfather is. They aren't looking for revenge or are ate up with regret or anger. They are....*GASP*....normal!

Modifié par meonlyred, 03 janvier 2011 - 07:24 .

[fortunesque]

Chignon wrote...

TeenZombie wrote...

Fun fact:  I actually did go back to old threads on the BSN and the old Bioware forums to get more accurate quotes for all of these.  I didn't even to get to use all of the ones I found.  Did you know that Kaidan deserves to die because he's sweaty (or greasy looking) when you visit him at his station?  And Ashley deserves to die because she has a funny nose!

If Kaidan looks sweaty in that scene what does that make Shepard?

WOMEN DONT SWEAT GOD THATS GROSS

[Melindil]

fortunesque wrote...

Chignon wrote...

TeenZombie wrote...

Fun fact:  I actually did go back to old threads on the BSN and the old Bioware forums to get more accurate quotes for all of these.  I didn't even to get to use all of the ones I found.  Did you know that Kaidan deserves to die because he's sweaty (or greasy looking) when you visit him at his station?  And Ashley deserves to die because she has a funny nose!

If Kaidan looks sweaty in that scene what does that make Shepard?

WOMEN DONT SWEAT GOD THATS GROSS

I just died laughing at this.

To be honest, she always looks more plastic than sweaty.  The lighting there is just... weird.

[DWH1982]

Melindil wrote...

All of the irrational hate toward Ash and Kaidan really is horrible. I always feel like people are grasping for excuses to justify why they don't like the characters or why they chose to kill the character on Virmire.

And I don't know if it's my sleep-derived brain coming up with all kinds of ridiculous theories about everything, but sometimes I wonder if the hate isn't rooted in something of which people aren't consciously aware. For instance, is all the hate toward Ash the result of the fact that she's a woman who can beat your ass and is totally cool being independent and not being a damsel in distress and doesn't actually *need* Shepard? Is the hate toward Kaidan the result of the fact that he isn't the testosterone-touting brosef who doesn't really have emotions and is going to want to go seek ale and wenches with you after the mission's done and maybe start a couple of bar brawls? I mean, we have archetypes of what males and females should be in games, books, and film and Kaidan and Ash defy those in a lot of ways, as many people have pointed out. Is the hate due to the fact that they (Ashley especially) don't fit into stereotypical roles for characters in video games and the fact that they aren't really catering to the video game consumer base?

I may also be completely cracked out and seeing things that aren't there and trying to rationalize something that has no logic to it at all.

It's always baffled me.  Didn't play Mass Effect for the first time until back in April, when I picked up a copy of ME1 to relax after a trying semester of grad school.  I loved both Ashley and Kaidan, to the point where I was actually a little aggravated when I first realized that I couldn't take other characters on missions and keep both of them at the same time. 

Ashley seems like someone I'd love to be in a relationship with in real life, even though someone like that probably wouldn't look twice at me. Kaidan, in terms of temperament and intellect, reminds me of some of the guy friends I have in real life, so he seems like someone I'd enjoy hanging out with.  I never really liked bar brawling, so I don't really care about that anyway.
 
I first started reading through the forums a few months ago, after playing ME2 for the first time.  I was shocked by just how many people hate Ash and Kaidan, as well as by some of the stupid reasons they give as justification.

[Melindil]

And that's what I love about them and it's why I get so weirded out by people who hate them. They're so real, so normal. It's really refreshing to see truly relatable characters in video games, characters you might meet in everyday life and become friends with.



I've said it before and I'll say it again: Kaidan and Ash are my absolute favorite characters in the series (Joker being a close third). I wish I could keep them both.

[FireEye]

I would have kept both Kaidan and Ashley if I'd been given a choice.  They're easily my favorite characters in both games.



Can I have them back now? 

[DWH1982]

Yeah, I have mixed feelings on Virmire.

Part of me thinks that it was fantastic in terms of telling a compelling story and forcing the player to make difficult decisions.

The other part of me is irked at being forced to give up one of my favorite characters. Plus, with Virmire, Ash and Kaidan now seem to be regarded as "interchangable" by Bioware, and I feel it has had a negative impact on their character development.

Modifié par DWH1982, 03 janvier 2011 - 08:08 .

[meonlyred]

I love Virmire cause it is a neutral decision in a game made up entirely of good/evil decisions. There is not right or wrong choice. Both choices can be passionately argued. Yeah it sucks choosing between the two of them, but damn good storytelling. ME2 lacked that 'what do YOU think is the right choice?" choices.

[Chignon]

FireEye wrote...

I would have kept both Kaidan and Ashley if I'd been given a choice.  They're easily my favorite characters in both games.

/snip

Can I have them back now? 

I want them both back, too.

[Melindil]

DWH1982 wrote...
Part of me thinks that it was fantastic in terms of telling a compelling story and forcing the player to make difficult decisions.

The other part of me is irked at being forced to give up one of my favorite characters. Plus, with Virmire, Ash and Kaidan now seem to be regarded as "interchangable" by Bioware, and I feel it has had a negative impact on their character development.

Virmire is simultaneously my favorite and most hated mission ever, for those exact reasons.

As for being interchangable and character development, it's really difficult to say what kind of effect Virmire had on that.  After all, the only thing we've seen of them since Virmire is Horizon and the message and neither of those are a fabulous indication of where the characters are going; good or bad, we just don't have enough data to really draw that sort of conclusion. 



Seriously though, even with staff changes (like L'etoile leaving) I'm pretty optimistic about both characters being done right from here on out.  I have a nagging suspicion that whatever they have planned for Kaidan and Ash is epic and has been so since the beginning and that's it's something that no amount of fan whining or irrational hate would be able to undermine.  Then again, I have to be optimistic.  I'll have been waiting about four years for a satisfactory conclusion when ME3 hits the shelves... I don't know that I would survive if I wasn't positive about it.

Modifié par Melindil, 03 janvier 2011 - 08:23 .

[meonlyred]

Speaking of Kaidan and Ashley being interchangeable to Bioware, has anyone else noticed that Horizon was oddly out of character for Kaidan? Kaidan is a loyal marine, given, but he is practical about everything, where Ash is a little more gung ho about the Alliance. (Not that there is anything wrong with that, I'm gung ho about the Alliance) It seems to me Bioware geared the conversation on Horizon to Ashley. I know it would be a little more work and money but you would think they would have slightly different scripts.

[DWH1982]

Melindil wrote...

DWH1982 wrote...
Part of me thinks that it was fantastic in terms of telling a compelling story and forcing the player to make difficult decisions.

The other part of me is irked at being forced to give up one of my favorite characters. Plus, with Virmire, Ash and Kaidan now seem to be regarded as "interchangable" by Bioware, and I feel it has had a negative impact on their character development.

Virmire is simultaneously my favorite and most hated mission ever, for those exact reasons.

As for being interchangable and character development, it's really difficult to say what kind of effect Virmire had on that.  After all, the only thing we've seen of them since Virmire is Horizon and the message and neither of those are a fabulous indication of where the characters are going; good or bad, we just don't have enough data to really draw that sort of conclusion. 



Seriously though, even with staff changes (like L'etoile leaving) I'm pretty optimistic about both characters being done right from here on out.  I have a nagging suspicion that whatever they have planned for Kaidan and Ash is epic and has been so since the beginning and that's it's something that no amount of fan whining or irrational hate would be able to undermine.  Then again, I have to be optimistic.  I'll have been waiting about four years for a satisfactory conclusion when ME3 hits the shelves... I don't know that I would survive if I wasn't positive about it.

As long as what they have planned doesn't involve turning Ash or Kaidan into an enemy.

I want the VS back on the squad, and I want it to happen early in the game and without having to shoot at them.

[syllogi]

DWH1982 wrote...

Yeah, I have mixed feelings on Virmire.

Part of me thinks that it was fantastic in terms of telling a compelling story and forcing the player to make difficult decisions.

The other part of me is irked at being forced to give up one of my favorite characters. Plus, with Virmire, Ash and Kaidan now seem to be regarded as "interchangable" by Bioware, and I feel it has had a negative impact on their character development.

Yeah, Virmire was a great mission, but so far their handling of the aftermath with the survivor has been terrible.  Anyone who didn't mind the ME2 suicide mission, but loved the ME2 squadmates, should just look at Kaidan/Ashley's role in that game and feel worried.   Liara was in a very different position, and they really redeemed her ME2 role with the DLC, but so far we have *nothing* showing that the devs acknowledge how badly the VS has been treated since Virmire.  Even the scene afterwards was weird and hamhanded, by letting Shepard declare his feeling for the survivor without really mourning the one who died.  Yikes.

I really do want to be proven wrong, and have some awesome VS DLC and a satisfying conclusion to ME3.  But they really have to own up to the plotholes and awkward writing, this time around.

[fortunesque]

meonlyred wrote...

Speaking of Kaidan and Ashley being interchangeable to Bioware, has anyone else noticed that Horizon was oddly out of character for Kaidan? Kaidan is a loyal marine, given, but he is practical about everything, where Ash is a little more gung ho about the Alliance. (Not that there is anything wrong with that, I'm gung ho about the Alliance) It seems to me Bioware geared the conversation on Horizon to Ashley. I know it would be a little more work and money but you would think they would have slightly different scripts.

Yeah, this is one thing that has me concerned for Kaidan's future. If they can't be bothered to make him in character (and not go crosseyed... and not share lines with Ash) for a 5 minute cameo, I highly doubt they'll put the effort into him if he's a main character in ME3. 

[DWH1982]

meonlyred wrote...

Speaking of Kaidan and Ashley being interchangeable to Bioware, has anyone else noticed that Horizon was oddly out of character for Kaidan? Kaidan is a loyal marine, given, but he is practical about everything, where Ash is a little more gung ho about the Alliance. (Not that there is anything wrong with that, I'm gung ho about the Alliance) It seems to me Bioware geared the conversation on Horizon to Ashley. I know it would be a little more work and money but you would think they would have slightly different scripts.

Relax, it's not like they made him wear Ashley's armor at any point in the game.

Oh, wait...

[meonlyred]

DWH1982 wrote...

meonlyred wrote...

Speaking of Kaidan and Ashley being interchangeable to Bioware, has anyone else noticed that Horizon was oddly out of character for Kaidan? Kaidan is a loyal marine, given, but he is practical about everything, where Ash is a little more gung ho about the Alliance. (Not that there is anything wrong with that, I'm gung ho about the Alliance) It seems to me Bioware geared the conversation on Horizon to Ashley. I know it would be a little more work and money but you would think they would have slightly different scripts.

Relax, it's not like they made him wear Ashley's armor at any point in the game.

Oh, wait...

*wimpers*

I actually LOVED him wearing the Pheonix armor that the begining.
Kaidan: "Shepard, are you sure I can't wear my old onyx armor."
Shepard: "No. It's has better stats"
Kaidan: "But...but it's pink."
Shepard: "No silly, it's light red."