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[Jhourney]

Actually, now that I can't play ME in any shape or form and I've started playing DA again, I'm at awe again at just how many dialogue and indepth conversations you can have. Can you imagine talking to Kaidan as much as you can Alistair? Just to stop while out on some planet to talk to Kaidan, ask him about the environment, mission related stuff or his thoughts.

Being able to speak to him on the Normandy with new options being added in the same pace it does now, but having a standard tree for dialogue conversations in place in between forwarding the story. A tree that explores more of the story behind the man that is Kaidan, that lets you explore what he's been up to for those two horrid years.

Add the 'camp trigger' and turn it into a 'cabin trigger' so Kaidan comes up to have a word when something is on his mind, and I think it could create such a more indepth and real relationship.



Not that I think we'll ever get it since ME is much more of a shooter and dialogue options for your crew are rather poor. (we had like, what 3 friendships dialogues for Garrus?) But what if they took on more RPG elements from DA without sacrificing the shooter elements now in place with ME2? Oh man, I wish they would.

[Randy1012]

Jhosephine wrote...

Actually, now that I can't play ME in any shape or form and I've started playing DA again, I'm at awe again at just how many dialogue and indepth conversations you can have. Can you imagine talking to Kaidan as much as you can Alistair? Just to stop while out on some planet to talk to Kaidan, ask him about the environment, mission related stuff or his thoughts.
Being able to speak to him on the Normandy with new options being added in the same pace it does now, but having a standard tree for dialogue conversations in place in between forwarding the story. A tree that explores more of the story behind the man that is Kaidan, that lets you explore what he's been up to for those two horrid years.
Add the 'camp trigger' and turn it into a 'cabin trigger' so Kaidan comes up to have a word when something is on his mind, and I think it could create such a more indepth and real relationship.

Not that I think we'll ever get it since ME is much more of a shooter and dialogue options for your crew are rather poor. (we had like, what 3 friendships dialogues for Garrus?) But what if they took on more RPG elements from DA without sacrificing the shooter elements now in place with ME2? Oh man, I wish they would.

I agree. I would love it if the ME writers just got with the DA writers and borrowed a few ideas from them in regards to interaction between the PC and his/her squad, and between the squadmates themselves.

Another Ashley supporter checking in, by the way. I figure Ash and Kaidan fans have to stick together after the nonsense we got in ME2. Plus I always thought Kaidan got kind of a bum rap anyway.

[Doug84]

Jhosephine wrote...

Not that I think we'll ever get it since ME is much more of a shooter and dialogue options for your crew are rather poor. (we had like, what 3 friendships dialogues for Garrus?) But what if they took on more RPG elements from DA without sacrificing the shooter elements now in place with ME2? Oh man, I wish they would.

Whilst I would appaul a richer dialog tree for all the characters in ME (richer the better - there is no such thing as too rich a dialogue tree! Mad, they called me, but look at me now! MWhahaha-), I'm not sure they could do it with that wheel thing.

And which RPG elements are you thinking of?

The ideal thing for me would be the sci-fi setting of ME with the dialog depth of DA:O and Shepard's voice (I do think DA:O's warden would have been abit better with a voice), with the run and gun fun of ME 2 but more customization of apparence and powers (Not that I want a return to the stat-based weapon accuracy).

Modifié par Doug84, 22 février 2010 - 11:07 .

[Lareit]

Doug84 wrote...



The ideal thing for me would be the sci-fi setting of ME with the dialog depth of DA:O and Shepard's voice (I do think DA:O's warden would have been abit better with a voice), with the run and gun fun of ME 2 but more customization of apparence and powers (Not that I want a return to the stat-based weapon accuracy).

No kidding, I got hyped for DA and went back and play'd ME1, being the most recent bioware game, and the silence of the main chr was jarring. Took forever to get used to.

Modifié par Lareit, 22 février 2010 - 11:10 .

[Doug84]

Lareit wrote...

Doug84 wrote...



The ideal thing for me would be the sci-fi setting of ME with the dialog depth of DA:O and Shepard's voice (I do think DA:O's warden would have been abit better with a voice), with the run and gun fun of ME 2 but more customization of apparence and powers (Not that I want a return to the stat-based weapon accuracy).

No kidding, I got hyped for DA and went back and play'd ME1, being the most recent bioware game, and the silence of the main chr was jarring. Took forever to get used to.

Yup! Though I will be going back to DA:O as soon as I finish this last playthrough of ME2 for now - got DLC to try  Return to Oscatar and the few months I've not played DA:O should be enough for me to play it after the Great DA:O binge of '09. And by the time I've finished on that, I should be ready to return to ME 2 with the hammer head DLC after the Great ME2 binge of '10

Modifié par Doug84, 22 février 2010 - 11:20 .

[Jhourney]

Doug84 wrote...

Jhosephine wrote...

Not that I think we'll ever get it since ME is much more of a shooter and dialogue options for your crew are rather poor. (we had like, what 3 friendships dialogues for Garrus?) But what if they took on more RPG elements from DA without sacrificing the shooter elements now in place with ME2? Oh man, I wish they would.

Whilst I would appaul a richer dialog tree for all the characters in ME (richer the better - there is no such thing as too rich a dialogue tree! Mad, they called me, but look at me now! MWhahaha-), I'm not sure they could do it with that wheel thing.

And which RPG elements are you thinking of?

The ideal thing for me would be the sci-fi setting of ME with the dialog depth of DA:O and Shepard's voice (I do think DA:O's warden would have been abit better with a voice), with the run and gun fun of ME 2 but more customization of apparence and powers (Not that I want a return to the stat-based weapon accuracy).

Having a Warden with a voice would have been lovely, being a mute is awkward at times. However, it can backfire as well, just look at Femsheps talk line with Jacob. Immersion breaking to say the least.
RPG elements from DA just means more depth to characters to me. At times I think the ME characters are pretty shallow despite having great stories tied to them, it's only the surface they let you see because the number of dialogues are so few.
They did a bit better with the loyalty quests in ME2 (despite them often feeling as a chore rather than natural character development), but at least those quests gave you more details.

I miss party banter as much as I miss being able to speak to characters without being tied to the Normandy. At times I would have loved to be able to just enter a conversation with a squaddie while on the Citadel.

Dialogue and storyline are just very important to me and there's so much of it in DA and so little in ME. I do think they could do it with the wheel. Investigate>pick subject>get detailed options>pick 1> investigate etc. Return always bring you back to the previous tree, heck add a few interrupts, get more bodylanguage in there, display more emotion....I do think it can be done, maybe just not as detailed as the DA system but satisfying nonetheless.

I dunno, I love ME, love the setting, love the fighting system, got used to the limited customization options, but the dialogues in ME2 were just meh and very short. So much I wanted to ask, wanted to say and I couldn't

[Nhani]

Jhosephine wrote...
Actually, now that I can't play ME in any shape or form and I've started playing DA again, I'm at awe again at just how many dialogue and indepth conversations you can have. Can you imagine talking to Kaidan as much as you can Alistair? Just to stop while out on some planet to talk to Kaidan, ask him about the environment, mission related stuff or his thoughts.

I have a rather peculiar relationship with Dragon Age; on one hand I loved some of the in-depth character dialogue and how it seemed a whole lot more characterized and developed in places; there was just so much more of it. On the other hand, as a result of said raising of bar, I found it even more anomalous how you couldn't really talk about you any.

Interestingly enough, I found Shepard far more defined a character, not just because of having a voice, but also having a past that is referenced beyond the tutorial level.

Ironically, as much as I absolutely loved Alistair, I wish the writing would've allowed him to act a Kaidan-esque shoulder at times; I mean sure, he has his troubles and needs to come to terms with them. That's fine, I liked him a lot and didn't mind in the least. What did jar me was how my poor young Cousland girl had pretty recently watched her home and family die in fire and was expected to just suck it up with barely a word.

But yes, we wouldn't say no to more Dragon Age-esque supporting cast dialogue depth in the Mass Effect series.

Edit: All that said, I actually found Mass Effect more moving in actual physical character interaction - Dragon Age was much more distant, and felt a bit like a step back choreography wise in how talking heads kept their distance. There was more physical contact in Mass Effect. I can understand how they would prefer to avoid it with different player character sizes, but I kind of missed that when playing Dragon Age.

Modifié par Nhani, 22 février 2010 - 11:31 .

[sapphyreelf]

The Angry One wrote...

Well there's something to be said for a tragic romantic death ending.
I always liked the Carth + Revan die on the Star Forge ending from KotOR which they stupidly cut: www.youtube.com/watch

I dunno I just liked Carth's dedication to saving the woman he loved from true darkness.
It should be an option I say.

Oh, how I wish this had been an ending still. I would have enjoyed my darkside Revan so much more than.  Carth.

[sapphyreelf]

Thanks for all the support from the Ash friends, btw. I think both Kaidan and Ashley get a bad rap from their haters. Nice to see us sticking together.

[Jhourney]

Nhani wrote...

Jhosephine wrote...
Actually, now that I can't play ME in any shape or form and I've started playing DA again, I'm at awe again at just how many dialogue and indepth conversations you can have. Can you imagine talking to Kaidan as much as you can Alistair? Just to stop while out on some planet to talk to Kaidan, ask him about the environment, mission related stuff or his thoughts.

I have a rather peculiar relationship with Dragon Age; on one hand I loved some of the in-depth character dialogue and how it seemed a whole lot more characterized and developed in places; there was just so much more of it. On the other hand, as a result of said raising of bar, I found it even more anomalous how you couldn't really talk about you any.

Interestingly enough, I found Shepard far more defined a character, not just because of having a voice, but also having a past that is referenced beyond the tutorial level.

Ironically, as much as I absolutely loved Alistair, I wish the writing would've allowed him to act a Kaidan-esque shoulder at times; I mean sure, he has his troubles and needs to come to terms with them. That's fine, I liked him a lot and didn't mind in the least. What did jar me was how my poor young Cousland girl had pretty recently watched her home and family die in fire and was expected to just suck it up with barely a word.

But yes, we wouldn't say no to more Dragon Age-esque supporting cast dialogue depth in the Mass Effect series.

Edit: All that said, I actually found Mass Effect more moving in actual physical character interaction - Dragon Age was much more distant, and felt a bit like a step back choreography wise in how talking heads kept their distance. There was more physical contact in Mass Effect. I can understand how they would prefer to avoid it with different player character sizes, but I kind of missed that when playing Dragon Age.

It seems to be a Bioware thing lately to make their heroes so tough and unbreakable it is rather immersion breaking. I too was frustrated with Alistair going on and on about Duncan without much thought to my Cousland's feelings. Sometimes it feels as if Shepard/Warden can take it all without effort, so much so it makes me frown and wonder what kind of machine they are.

Weird thing is, with DA...the physical contact was much better done in the start of the game than it was in the end. Just look at how Fergus comforts his wife, how Eleanor is with her husband, how Teyrn Cousland himself really shows emotion and physical pain. But as time passes in the game, those details fade away. Like waking up with Alistair in the prison and seeing your Warden passed out on the floor while he sits on the opposite side of the room doing nothing. Why isn't he at least holding her?

Detail work often gets scratched because of time and money restraints but still, I felt it went downhill the further I got in DA. And yet so much of a game's greatness can be found in the detail. Like Kaidan's face the moment he gets interrupted before kissing Shepard, loved that, but also how Shepard herself seemed vulnerable for once.

Oh well, guess we can't have it all.

Modifié par Jhosephine, 22 février 2010 - 11:41 .

[sapphyreelf]

I completely agree Jho. I missed alot of those small details in Dragon Age as the game wore on. It was very aggrivating, but it did serve to help with fanfic ideas - where I got to work out how my PC was dealing with things and adding those little details to conversations.



Of course, I do like how your companions react to how you truly feel when you talk to the Guardian of the Sacred Ashes. It is a nice little wake up call (plus you can kind of chastise Alistair in a conversation when he brings up family and remind him that yours is all dead).

[Nhani]

Jhosephine wrote...
It seems to be a Bioware thing lately to make their heroes so tough and unbreakable it is rather immersion breaking. I too was frustrated with Alistair going on and on about Duncan without much thought to my Cousland's feelings. Sometimes it feels as if Shepard/Warden can take it all without effort, so much so it makes me frown and wonder what kind of machine they are.

Weird thing is, with DA...the physical contact was much better done in the start of the game than it was in the end. Just look at how Fergus comforts his wife, how Eleanor is with her husband, how Teyrn Cousland himself really shows emotion and physical pain. But as time passes in the game, those details fade away. Like waking up with Alistair in the prison and seeing your Warden passed out on the floor while he sits on the opposite side of the room doing nothing. Why isn't he at least holding her?

I think with Dragon Age.. it was more the strange contradiction with how they try to make you care for your origins with the introductory "level" (as such) and then largely forget about it. It felt similarly anomalous walking into Orzammar as lady Aeducan with Alistair in tow and for all the fuss he made about his own past and origins.. he (nor anyone else of your group) never even batted an eyelid about how the dwarf they'd been following along for the recent weeks was none other than the dwarven princess.

I would've at least expected a "wait.. you're who?" sort of reaction, but alas. I would've loved if there was more opportunity to talk about it to characters who are supposedly your friends; Dragon Age made a pretty big deal out of how many origins are pretty traumatic, so never getting to talk about them and barely even acknowledging them feels.. off. I think Wynne was the only one who ever mentioned anything at all about my young lady Cousland actually being.. well.. a Cousland.


As for the choreography.. you have a point there. I think in part, too, the choreography was better whenever your character wasn't directly involved since they seemed to just have generic moments so they wouldn't need separate scripting for each player character body type. Plus, with your character not speaking, you never really got to see.. well.. yourself, react much.

Shepard stuck guns in people's faces from early on in Mass Effect. I missed that kind of interactivity in Dragon Age.

Modifié par Nhani, 22 février 2010 - 11:57 .

[syllogi]

Jhosephine wrote...

It seems to be a Bioware thing lately to make their heroes so tough and unbreakable it is rather immersion breaking. I too was frustrated with Alistair going on and on about Duncan without much thought to my Cousland's feelings. Sometimes it feels as if Shepard/Warden can take it all without effort, so much so it makes me frown and wonder what kind of machine they are.

Weird thing is, with DA...the physical contact was much better done in the start of the game than it was in the end. Just look at how Fergus comforts his wife, how Eleanor is with her husband, how Teyrn Cousland himself really shows emotion and physical pain. But as time passes in the game, those details fade away. Like waking up with Alistair in the prison and seeing your Warden passed out on the floor while he sits on the opposite side of the room doing nothing. Why isn't he at least holding her?

Detail work often gets scratched because of time and money restraints but still, I felt it went downhill the further I got in DA. And yet so much of a game's greatness can be found in the detail. Like Kaidan's face the moment he gets interrupted before kissing Shepard, loved that, but also how Shepard herself seemed vulnerable for once.

Oh well, guess we can't have it all.

Yeah, Shepard feels more "real" to me as a character than the Grey Warden, because of the voice acting and facial animations, even though Dragon Age has so much more dialogue.  Funny how that works.

And I would have loved to be able to talk about my character's feelings in DA:O.  As I recall, you get ONE conversation option, when Alistair is talking about losing Duncan and the Grey Wardens, where you can say, "yeah, I lost a lot too".  And that was it.  It was already a huge game with tons of dialogue, and I understand why they had to cut it off somewhere, but even a few more mentions of the character's past or feelings about current events would have been great.

And Kaidan told Shepard about his past because he cared about Shep.  Even if he was a dude.  His stories in ME1 were told because he wanted Shepard to know his opinions, and worried that Shepard would "cut corners".  Nobody else was worried about Shepard's wellbeing, in that way.  And no one on your team in ME2 comes up to you and says, "Are you sure about this?  Cerberus???" beyond Tali and Garrus having a sentence or two when they are recruited.  Because it would have been great to have someone challenge Shepard, even just to reassure the player that Shepard has really thought this through and looked at all other options.  You don't see this at all as it is.

[Doug84]

Nhani wrote...

Jhosephine wrote...
Actually, now that I can't play ME in any shape or form and I've started playing DA again, I'm at awe again at just how many dialogue and indepth conversations you can have. Can you imagine talking to Kaidan as much as you can Alistair? Just to stop while out on some planet to talk to Kaidan, ask him about the environment, mission related stuff or his thoughts.

I have a rather peculiar relationship with Dragon Age; on one hand I loved some of the in-depth character dialogue and how it seemed a whole lot more characterized and developed in places; there was just so much more of it. On the other hand, as a result of said raising of bar, I found it even more anomalous how you couldn't really talk about you any.

Interestingly enough, I found Shepard far more defined a character, not just because of having a voice, but also having a past that is referenced beyond the tutorial level.

Ironically, as much as I absolutely loved Alistair, I wish the writing would've allowed him to act a Kaidan-esque shoulder at times; I mean sure, he has his troubles and needs to come to terms with them. That's fine, I liked him a lot and didn't mind in the least. What did jar me was how my poor young Cousland girl had pretty recently watched her home and family die in fire and was expected to just suck it up with barely a word.

But yes, we wouldn't say no to more Dragon Age-esque supporting cast dialogue depth in the Mass Effect series.

Edit: All that said, I actually found Mass Effect more moving in actual physical character interaction - Dragon Age was much more distant, and felt a bit like a step back choreography wise in how talking heads kept their distance. There was more physical contact in Mass Effect. I can understand how they would prefer to avoid it with different player character sizes, but I kind of missed that when playing Dragon Age.

I think in the case of DA:O with guards to Alistar dealing with his own stuff whilst Kaiden was more supportive, I will offer up the admittly weak defence that the world of Medieval-tech Ferelden is more violent, chaotic, and the average person lives shorter lives - and hence, they tend towards faster emotional recovery than a person from today or the sci-fi world of Mass Effect.

Hence, as the Warden, you are expected to recover from the bad things that happen in the prologues (expect the Dwarf commoner one ) and cope. Alistar spent most of his life being supported by the monks and templars, and hence was never really exposed to that sort of thing.

In ME, their is time and safety to let your mind wonder and dwell on things whilst also lacking the urgency to deal with the emotional baggage - hence why Shepard still had feeling s/he needed to deal with - And Kaiden had had his baggage sorted out long ago after 'brain camp'.

Anyway... I think the real source of the differences between the two bioware series' is that they have different dev and writing teams.

I think both series' could learn from each other - DA:O could learn about making the characters move and act and emote better visually, ME could learn to try and increase the depth of dialog.

But both franchises are aimed at different things anyways, or so I think. DA:O is targetted first at PC players, and then console gamers after, and vice versa for ME, hence why they focus on the different area's.

Personally, I have room in my heart for both Oh, whilst were on the topic of LI in DA:O, I would like a non-singing Leliana. Seriously, the switch in voice actor was jarring to say the least!

[Doug84]

Nhani wrote...

Jhosephine wrote...
It seems to be a Bioware thing lately to make their heroes so tough and unbreakable it is rather immersion breaking. I too was frustrated with Alistair going on and on about Duncan without much thought to my Cousland's feelings. Sometimes it feels as if Shepard/Warden can take it all without effort, so much so it makes me frown and wonder what kind of machine they are.

Weird thing is, with DA...the physical contact was much better done in the start of the game than it was in the end. Just look at how Fergus comforts his wife, how Eleanor is with her husband, how Teyrn Cousland himself really shows emotion and physical pain. But as time passes in the game, those details fade away. Like waking up with Alistair in the prison and seeing your Warden passed out on the floor while he sits on the opposite side of the room doing nothing. Why isn't he at least holding her?

I think with Dragon Age.. it was more the strange contradiction with how they try to make you care for your origins with the introductory "level" (as such) and then largely forget about it. It felt similarly anomalous walking into Orzammar as lady Aeducan with Alistair in tow and for all the fuss he made about his own past and origins.. he (nor anyone else of your group) never even batted an eyelid about how the dwarf they'd been following along for the recent weeks was none other than the dwarven princess.

I would've at least expected a "wait.. you're who?" sort of reaction, but alas. I would've loved if there was more opportunity to talk about it to characters who are supposedly your friends; Dragon Age made a pretty big deal out of how many origins are pretty traumatic, so never getting to talk about them and barely even acknowledging them feels.. off. I think Wynne was the only one who ever mentioned anything at all about my young lady Cousland actually being.. well.. a Cousland.


As for the choreography.. you have a point there. I think in part, too, the choreography was better whenever your character wasn't directly involved since they seemed to just have generic moments so they wouldn't need separate scripting for each player character body type. Plus, with your character not speaking, you never really got to see.. well.. yourself, react much.

Shepard stuck guns in people's faces from early on in Mass Effect. I missed that kind of interactivity in Dragon Age.

Agreed! As I say, both series' have things to their credits, and I think BioWare should have some sort of big meeting between the two sets of dev and writing teams so they can exchange ideas and tips

Between the good points of DA:O and ME lies the perfect RPG.

[Jhourney]

Doug84 wrote...

Agreed! As I say, both series' have things to their credits, and I think BioWare should have some sort of big meeting between the two sets of dev and writing teams so they can exchange ideas and tips

Between the good points of DA:O and ME lies the perfect RPG.

Well perfection can never be accomplished, which is a good thing, but it would indeed be one hell of a RPG. Then again Bioware always had great people working for them, so that shouldn't have been the problem.

You know, Kaidan is worried about Shepard cutting corners, he should have done the same back at the Bioware office

[Nhani]

Doug84 wrote...
But both franchises are aimed at different things anyways, or so I think. DA:O is targetted first at PC players, and then console gamers after, and vice versa for ME, hence why they focus on the different area's.

They definitely have different aims - Mass Effect struck me as having a much more.. well.. cinematic focus, with a more defined lead character and the whole approach to shot angles and everything. Dragon Age is more built as a spiritual successor to Baldur's Gate-like games and throws more text at you, but the lead character feels more generic and there's much less focus on a cinematic cutting, both in terms of cutscenes and just dialogue.

There's strengths, merits and weaknesses with both approaches. I'm actually curious how well you could combine them without losing out anywhere. Suppose BioWare might have us find out, somewhere down the line.

TeenZombie wrote...
And Kaidan told Shepard about his past because he cared about Shep.  Even if he was a dude.  His stories in ME1 were told because he wanted Shepard to know his opinions, and worried that Shepard would "cut corners".  Nobody else was worried about Shepard's wellbeing, in that way.  And no one on your team in ME2 comes up to you and says, "Are you sure about this?  Cerberus???" beyond Tali and Garrus having a sentence or two when they are recruited.  Because it would have been great to have someone challenge Shepard, even just to reassure the player that Shepard has really thought this through and looked at all other options.  You don't see this at all as it is.

And thus why Kaidan was, and is, Awesome. Thinking about it, Kaidan strikes me as a bit of a rarity in games - team members that go along with anything you say is common.. with good reason. Team members that strongly tell you they think you're an idiot when you do something they don't approve of is not unheard of, but characters that are just there and care about you enough to try to help you avoid ending up in too much a mess to get out of?

Thinking about that, really, I'm curious how many of your team members - or people in the Mass Effect universe in general - who have really seen.. well. Shepard, the real person behind the icon. I'd suspect most just see the tireless hero/badass that goes off and does incredible things.

Kaidan offered shelter for the person behind that icon. I'm hoping BioWare will provide us with more of that.

[Doug84]

Jhosephine wrote...

Doug84 wrote...

Agreed! As I say, both series' have things to their credits, and I think BioWare should have some sort of big meeting between the two sets of dev and writing teams so they can exchange ideas and tips

Between the good points of DA:O and ME lies the perfect RPG.

Well perfection can never be accomplished, which is a good thing, but it would indeed be one hell of a RPG. Then again Bioware always had great people working for them, so that shouldn't have been the problem.

You know, Kaidan is worried about Shepard cutting corners, he should have done the same back at the Bioware office

LOL, indeedie! But I think if the DA:O devs and the ME devs exchanged a few people between their teams, we'd see a growth in both series' qualities.

Also, I must complement the posters here - you all seem to have individual avatars that look good! I would myself, but...well, its sufficient to say that my DA:O characters tend to look very generic, heh. Expect that one who had an 8 foot wide nose... still not sure how I missed that during character design...

[MICHELLE7]

Mrs Templar wrote...

 Beautiful pictures Lady Winde.  

This 

The pics are gorgeous.

[MICHELLE7]

fortunesque wrote...

That's one worry that I have. Ash and Kaidan had the same lines in ME2...

They became one person...the only real difference was that one was female in one game and the other was male in another game. (A few words changed here and there but that really made little difference).

[Doug84]

Nhani wrote...

Doug84 wrote...
But both franchises are aimed at different things anyways, or so I think. DA:O is targetted first at PC players, and then console gamers after, and vice versa for ME, hence why they focus on the different area's.

They definitely have different aims - Mass Effect struck me as having a much more.. well.. cinematic focus, with a more defined lead character and the whole approach to shot angles and everything. Dragon Age is more built as a spiritual successor to Baldur's Gate-like games and throws more text at you, but the lead character feels more generic and there's much less focus on a cinematic cutting, both in terms of cutscenes and just dialogue.

There's strengths, merits and weaknesses with both approaches. I'm actually curious how well you could combine them without losing out anywhere. Suppose BioWare might have us find out, somewhere down the line.

True... it would be hard to mix both approaches, especially without extending the dev cycle beyond the 3 year typical max of most games, and still have something refined on release.

But if we lives in a world where Bioware could do that and damn the consequences, I'd say you could take the dialog of DA:O, have the Warden's stuff voiced, and have him/her interact with the other characters or even just move alittle  - the way shepard does; like the odd little hand-to-neck motion he makes, or pointing at the person he's talking too.

Interrupts could also be added to DA:O then. At that point, you'd have the DA:O depth with the ME 'life' added to it, i think.

As for combat...well, this is the trickest one of all because they are almost 100% different. I think ME 2 needs to have more customization in armour choices for a start - the colours are pretty but their are so few pieces of armour to select from that all look similar. But combat... I think we can leave those seperate - there is room in this world for both types based on which you prefer, and really, DA:O's combat suits setting, MEs combat suits the setting.

Actually, the more I think about it, the more it seems that its primarily the character interaction they need work on in both series - ME needs more depth, DA:O needs more life and for the Warden to be an active actor in the scenes, not a passive avatar.

TeenZombie wrote...
And Kaidan told Shepard about his past because he cared about Shep.  Even if he was a dude.  His stories in ME1 were told because he wanted Shepard to know his opinions, and worried that Shepard would "cut corners".  Nobody else was worried about Shepard's wellbeing, in that way.  And no one on your team in ME2 comes up to you and says, "Are you sure about this?  Cerberus???" beyond Tali and Garrus having a sentence or two when they are recruited.  Because it would have been great to have someone challenge Shepard, even just to reassure the player that Shepard has really thought this through and looked at all other options.  You don't see this at all as it is.

And thus why Kaidan was, and is, Awesome. Thinking about it, Kaidan strikes me as a bit of a rarity in games - team members that go along with anything you say is common.. with good reason. Team members that strongly tell you they think you're an idiot when you do something they don't approve of is not unheard of, but characters that are just there and care about you enough to try to help you avoid ending up in too much a mess to get out of?

Thinking about that, really, I'm curious how many of your team members - or people in the Mass Effect universe in general - who have really seen.. well. Shepard, the real person behind the icon. I'd suspect most just see the tireless hero/badass that goes off and does incredible things.

Kaidan offered shelter for the person behind that icon. I'm hoping BioWare will provide us with more of that.

Honestly? This is what I like about Ashley as well - she doesn't keep her opinions to herself, even if they aren't what the player wants to her (and it has resulted in a negative 'Ash is a racist' view that isn't really fair). But like Kaiden, she'll do her best to help inspite of her own feelings towards the choice of action.

Also, I forgot to comment earlier on something - someone mentioned that FemShep and Jacob's dialog was jarring - I had heard alittle about this...FemShep was really...erm...Forward with Jacob? I have heard the word 'seedy' used to describe it heh

[MICHELLE7]

Jhosephine wrote...

Actually, now that I can't play ME in any shape or form and I've started playing DA again, I'm at awe again at just how many dialogue and indepth conversations you can have. Can you imagine talking to Kaidan as much as you can Alistair? Just to stop while out on some planet to talk to Kaidan, ask him about the environment, mission related stuff or his thoughts.
Being able to speak to him on the Normandy with new options being added in the same pace it does now, but having a standard tree for dialogue conversations in place in between forwarding the story. A tree that explores more of the story behind the man that is Kaidan, that lets you explore what he's been up to for those two horrid years.
Add the 'camp trigger' and turn it into a 'cabin trigger' so Kaidan comes up to have a word when something is on his mind, and I think it could create such a more indepth and real relationship.

Not that I think we'll ever get it since ME is much more of a shooter and dialogue options for your crew are rather poor. (we had like, what 3 friendships dialogues for Garrus?) But what if they took on more RPG elements from DA without sacrificing the shooter elements now in place with ME2? Oh man, I wish they would.

Yeah, I think we are pretty much stuck with the same set up in ME3 that we had in ME3 as far as conversations and dialog are concerned. My hope is that if they don't do the loyalty thing again(and since ME3 will probably be more story driven I don't think they would repeat the loyalty thing) that they will at the very least give is more dialog for each character(even more that is non-romantic would be nice).

[Nhani]

Doug84 wrote...
Honestly? This is what I like about Ashley as well - she doesn't keep her opinions to herself, even if they aren't what the player wants to her (and it has resulted in a negative 'Ash is a racist' view that isn't really fair). But like Kaiden, she'll do her best to help inspite of her own feelings towards the choice of action.

Also, I forgot to comment earlier on something - someone mentioned that FemShep and Jacob's dialog was jarring - I had heard alittle about this...FemShep was really...erm...Forward with Jacob? I have heard the word 'seedy' used to describe it heh

Hm, you might be entirely correct with Ash; as you might imagine, she unfortunately tends to die too soon for me to find out, which is something of a pity since I actually like her character a fair bit. She doesn't make excuses for her opinions, but will still fall in line if asked. She struck me more as the fun idle chatter sort of friend from the impression I got, compared to Kaidan which struck me as more of a steady shoulder, but in the end both of them had your back. Ash just struck me as more direct about it (as in: Kaidan is the one that tells you to leave yourself an out for if things go pants, while Ash will gun down Wrex to protect you if it comes to that, even if you asked her not to)

As for Jacob, I.. generally don't talk to Jacob, much. The voice direction there isn't really.. yeah. Talking to Kaidan in Mass Effect 1 as a female Shepard might've been flirty, but Jacob? Ye gods. I give him a wide berth, as I can't picture my own personal Shepard as quite that forward.. (not to mention she's already spoken for!)

[MICHELLE7]

Jhosephine wrote...

Weird thing is, with DA...the physical contact was much better done in the start of the game than it was in the end. Just look at how Fergus comforts his wife, how Eleanor is with her husband, how Teyrn Cousland himself really shows emotion and physical pain. But as time passes in the game, those details fade away. Like waking up with Alistair in the prison and seeing your Warden passed out on the floor while he sits on the opposite side of the room doing nothing. Why isn't he at least holding her?

Detail work often gets scratched because of time and money restraints but still, I felt it went downhill the further I got in DA. And yet so much of a game's greatness can be found in the detail. Like Kaidan's face the moment he gets interrupted before kissing Shepard, loved that, but also how Shepard herself seemed vulnerable for once.

Oh well, guess we can't have it all.

The thing with Alistair and the Warden in the prison was probably that they didn't want to take the time to make two different scenes since not everyone would have romanced him. I realize the game was huge but they took what...five years with it(or so I heard)...I could have done with a slightly smaller game with more detail myself. And yeah, You're right I hadn't thought about it but most of the the origins stories had a lot more detail in them. 

Where DAO seemed to go downhill, ME went uphill...the romance with Kaidan just continued to build and build and build...the anticipation for what was coming is what made it so rewarding in the end... at least to me.

Modifié par MICHELLE7, 22 février 2010 - 01:06 .

[Doug84]

Nhani wrote...

Doug84 wrote...
Honestly? This is what I like about Ashley as well - she doesn't keep her opinions to herself, even if they aren't what the player wants to her (and it has resulted in a negative 'Ash is a racist' view that isn't really fair). But like Kaiden, she'll do her best to help inspite of her own feelings towards the choice of action.

Also, I forgot to comment earlier on something - someone mentioned that FemShep and Jacob's dialog was jarring - I had heard alittle about this...FemShep was really...erm...Forward with Jacob? I have heard the word 'seedy' used to describe it heh

Hm, you might be entirely correct with Ash; as you might imagine, she unfortunately tends to die too soon for me to find out, which is something of a pity since I actually like her character a fair bit. She doesn't make excuses for her opinions, but will still fall in line if asked. She struck me more as the fun idle chatter sort of friend from the impression I got, compared to Kaidan which struck me as more of a steady shoulder, but in the end both of them had your back. Ash just struck me as more direct about it (as in: Kaidan is the one that tells you to leave yourself an out for if things go pants, while Ash will gun down Wrex to protect you if it comes to that, even if you asked her not to)

As for Jacob, I.. generally don't talk to Jacob, much. The voice direction there isn't really.. yeah. Talking to Kaidan in Mass Effect 1 as a female Shepard might've been flirty, but Jacob? Ye gods. I give him a wide berth, as I can't picture my own personal Shepard as quite that forward.. (not to mention she's already spoken for!)

*discretely hides the lump of radiactive charcoal that used to be Kaidan in most of his ME1 games*

Yeah, thats fair enough  I suspect MaleShep and FemShep had different takes the level of friendship with Kaidan and Ashley, heh. Same with the players. Though I liked Kaidan, and he certainly wasn't as dull as Jacob, who I wanted to like, but just couldn't find anything to like or hate about him.

And yeah, the femshep/jacob thing is best described as 'seedy' and hidden under a veil

Modifié par Doug84, 22 février 2010 - 01:12 .