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[archonambroseus]

TeenZombie wrote...

As for option #4, they basically used ROCKS FALL, EVERYONE DIES to negate it in Awakening.  If your LI is Morrigan, there are even fewer choices, and none of them include staying with the woman you love.  Zevran and Leliana can have happy endings, but be prepared to have whatever happiness you may think you have with them crushed in the next expansion or DA2.  Happiness isn't edgy or cool or emotionally engaging, according to Bioware.

Less speculation, more facts please.  You can't reason that Zev and Leliana will have some tragedy occur because BioWare shuns happiness and BioWare shuns happiness because Zev and Leliana will have some tragedy occur.  I'll have to import my Morrigan-baby-spawning character into Awakening to check that out though, since the only one I've sent over had Loghaine sacrifice himself.

Plus, ending aside, is there anyone who could see an actual love interest in Morrigan ending well?  It seems like, given her character, it would be a lot hammier to have her come around and forgoe her persona to appease the fans.  Having a distanced, colder character who doensn't come around is, in my opinion, refreshing (especially after the possible Viconia shift in ToB).

[Pacifien]

Jhosephine wrote...

Wanted to grab dinner and when I got up and looked at my screen, all zoomed in while in Photoshop, I just went..."Oh."

Thought I would share what I saw *chuckles and goes to have dinner*

You know, I don't really go for the endless postings of Kaidan pictures. They don't really do much for me. I'm much more about discussion on forums.

Except when it comes to this picture. This one can be posted on every page, and I'd be fine with that really.

[Kabraxal]

archonambroseus wrote...

TeenZombie wrote...

As for option #4, they basically used ROCKS FALL, EVERYONE DIES to negate it in Awakening.  If your LI is Morrigan, there are even fewer choices, and none of them include staying with the woman you love.  Zevran and Leliana can have happy endings, but be prepared to have whatever happiness you may think you have with them crushed in the next expansion or DA2.  Happiness isn't edgy or cool or emotionally engaging, according to Bioware.

Less speculation, more facts please.  You can't reason that Zev and Leliana will have some tragedy occur because BioWare shuns happiness and BioWare shuns happiness because Zev and Leliana will have some tragedy occur.  I'll have to import my Morrigan-baby-spawning character into Awakening to check that out though, since the only one I've sent over had Loghaine sacrifice himself.

Plus, ending aside, is there anyone who could see an actual love interest in Morrigan ending well?  It seems like, given her character, it would be a lot hammier to have her come around and forgoe her persona to appease the fans.  Having a distanced, colder character who doensn't come around is, in my opinion, refreshing (especially after the possible Viconia shift in ToB).

In my runs Morrigan already came around she started to tear up and actually mentioned love without disdain.  So no, it is not against her character to have a happy ending.  In fact, having another Viconia "no matter what you do it ends badly in one way or another" would simply prove that Bioware should just stop giving player's choice.

[Star]

TeenZombie wrote...

archonambroseus wrote...

Mrs Templar wrote...

archonambroseus wrote...

Haven't gotten far in DA:A yet, but I certainly can't recall any recent BioWare games where you're stiff-armed into tragedy. Care to be more specific?

Well in DA:O if you are a female and your LI is Alistair either:
1) Your warden dies
2) Your LI Alistair dies
3) Your LI Alistair becomes a drunk and leaves you b/c you chose to not kill Loghain
4) You force your LI Alistair to sleep with the woman he despises in order to produce BW's version of Rosemary's Baby

Not exactly happy endings 

So there's no entirely happy ending for one of the four possible romance options?  I can live with that.  Plus the results of #4 are so ambiguous at this point that I don't think it qualifies for "tragedy."  Especially if the PC is male and can take the bullet for Al.

As for option #4, they basically used ROCKS FALL, EVERYONE DIES to negate it in Awakening.  If your LI is Morrigan, there are even fewer choices, and none of them include staying with the woman you love.  Zevran and Leliana can have happy endings, but be prepared to have whatever happiness you may think you have with them crushed in the next expansion or DA2.  Happiness isn't edgy or cool or emotionally engaging, according to Bioware.

I am so not wanting to continuing playing Awakenings the more I read about the ending.  *shudders* 

I'm off to dinner. I think I need a drink and a few Kaidan pics to either give me the courage to keep playing or wipe the potential ending horrors of DA:A out of my mind. 

[sapphyreelf]

sapphyreelf wrote...



Shep: *hugs Kaidan tightly*
Kaidan: *tries to step away after a long moment, finds Shep is still holding tight* Uhm, Shepard. Can you let go?
Shep: Not going to happen. They'll try to steal you away from me!

*points above* Reposting my mindset right now.

[sapphyreelf]

I just want to add that the BW slide ending is really the only thing that truly annoyed me overall about the story in Awakenings. I didn't hate the rest of the game up until my character's personal ending. I'm not saying your ending will be better, but I don't want to be killing the desire of people who own the game from playing.

[fortunesque]

Or!

Shep: Kaidan, I've missed you.
Kaidan: I've missed you too. Again, I'm so sorry about what I said. I'm glad you're considering having me on the SR-2
*clickclickCACHOOK*
Kaidan: OH MY GOD! YOU STAPLED MY HIP TO YOUR ABDOMEN!!!!!
Shep: And we will never part
Kaidan: I'M BLEEDING!!! YOU'RE BLEEDING!!! WE'RE BLEEDING!!!!!!!
Shep: Bleeding love out of our very hearts

[sapphyreelf]

fortunesque wrote...

Or!

Shep: Kaidan, I've missed you.
Kaidan: I've missed you too. Again, I'm so sorry about what I said. I'm glad you're considering having me on the SR-2
*clickclickCACHOOK*
Kaidan: OH MY GOD! YOU STAPLED MY HIP TO YOUR ABDOMEN!!!!!
Shep: And we will never part
Kaidan: I'M BLEEDING!!! YOU'RE BLEEDING!!! WE'RE BLEEDING!!!!!!!
Shep: Bleeding love out of our very hearts

I am okay with this dialogue right now.

[syllogi]

archonambroseus wrote...

TeenZombie wrote...

As for option #4, they basically used ROCKS FALL, EVERYONE DIES to negate it in Awakening.  If your LI is Morrigan, there are even fewer choices, and none of them include staying with the woman you love.  Zevran and Leliana can have happy endings, but be prepared to have whatever happiness you may think you have with them crushed in the next expansion or DA2.  Happiness isn't edgy or cool or emotionally engaging, according to Bioware.

Less speculation, more facts please.  You can't reason that Zev and Leliana will have some tragedy occur because BioWare shuns happiness and BioWare shuns happiness because Zev and Leliana will have some tragedy occur.  I'll have to import my Morrigan-baby-spawning character into Awakening to check that out though, since the only one I've sent over had Loghaine sacrifice himself.

Plus, ending aside, is there anyone who could see an actual love interest in Morrigan ending well?  It seems like, given her character, it would be a lot hammier to have her come around and forgoe her persona to appease the fans.  Having a distanced, colder character who doensn't come around is, in my opinion, refreshing (especially after the possible Viconia shift in ToB).

Rant on (and this is nothing personal, btw, I'm just generally upset...):

I'm obviously bitter right now, but do you mean to say that Alistair and Morrigan fans should just romance Zevran and Leliana and be grateful that they get that much?  Two of the possible four romances end in ambiguous, unsatisifying ways and there is no way out of it. 

Personally, I feel that UNAVOIDABLE tragedy is a cheap way to end a game.  I like tragedy in books, but happy endings nowadays are actually the refreshing and different way to go.  If I wanted Cormac MacCarthy type unending misery, I'd be off reading it, not playing a game with choices.

I remember beating ME1 for the first time, seeing Shepard come out of the rubble, and I squealed with pleasure.  That's one of my favorite gaming experiences.  Dark games like Planescape Torment may be memorable too, but I don't have a big smile on my face and feel like I had a great experience when I walk away.  Then there are games like NWN2, which had an ending that made me angry and disappointed, especially after the confusion at the end of KOTOR2.  

Forcing the "dark" elements of the game, with no options for escape, is cheap and manipulative.  You may enjoy it, but since I'm not the only who feels upset by Awakening, I'm not the only one who feels otherwise.

[Mrs Templar]

@TeenZombie: Nicely said.

[Kabraxal]

TeenZombie wrote...

archonambroseus wrote...

TeenZombie wrote...

As for option #4, they basically used ROCKS FALL, EVERYONE DIES to negate it in Awakening.  If your LI is Morrigan, there are even fewer choices, and none of them include staying with the woman you love.  Zevran and Leliana can have happy endings, but be prepared to have whatever happiness you may think you have with them crushed in the next expansion or DA2.  Happiness isn't edgy or cool or emotionally engaging, according to Bioware.

Less speculation, more facts please.  You can't reason that Zev and Leliana will have some tragedy occur because BioWare shuns happiness and BioWare shuns happiness because Zev and Leliana will have some tragedy occur.  I'll have to import my Morrigan-baby-spawning character into Awakening to check that out though, since the only one I've sent over had Loghaine sacrifice himself.

Plus, ending aside, is there anyone who could see an actual love interest in Morrigan ending well?  It seems like, given her character, it would be a lot hammier to have her come around and forgoe her persona to appease the fans.  Having a distanced, colder character who doensn't come around is, in my opinion, refreshing (especially after the possible Viconia shift in ToB).

Rant on (and this is nothing personal, btw, I'm just generally upset...):

I'm obviously bitter right now, but do you mean to say that Alistair and Morrigan fans should just romance Zevran and Leliana and be grateful that they get that much?  Two of the possible four romances end in ambiguous, unsatisifying ways and there is no way out of it. 

Personally, I feel that UNAVOIDABLE tragedy is a cheap way to end a game.  I like tragedy in books, but happy endings nowadays are actually the refreshing and different way to go.  If I wanted Cormac MacCarthy type unending misery, I'd be off reading it, not playing a game with choices.

I remember beating ME1 for the first time, seeing Shepard come out of the rubble, and I squealed with pleasure.  That's one of my favorite gaming experiences.  Dark games like Planescape Torment may be memorable too, but I don't have a big smile on my face and feel like I had a great experience when I walk away.  Then there are games like NWN2, which had an ending that made me angry and disappointed, especially after the confusion at the end of KOTOR2.  

Forcing the "dark" elements of the game, with no options for escape, is cheap and manipulative.  You may enjoy it, but since I'm not the only who feels upset by Awakening, I'm not the only one who feels otherwise.

QFT. 

I don't mind a natural bittersweet ending or tragic ending to some stories, but most writers try to force it.  I have the same problem with magically happy endings too though.  When every character is on the brink of death only for it to be sunshine and rainbows, it is just as unbelievable and pathetic as a contrived tragedy. 

[archonambroseus]

Kabraxal wrote...

In my runs Morrigan already came around she started to tear up and actually mentioned love without disdain.

She does?  I'm going entirely on what my friends have told me since I never romanced her, but I was under the impression that she got as far as being conflicted and then turtled back up again.

TeenZombie wrote...

Rant on (and this is nothing personal,
btw, I'm just generally upset...):

I'm obviously bitter right
now, but do you mean to say that Alistair and Morrigan fans should just
romance Zevran and Leliana and be grateful that they get that much?  Two
of the possible four romances end in ambiguous, unsatisifying ways and
there is no way out of it.

Thanks for the disclaimer.

I'm certainly not saying that.  I'm saying that there's a romance that can't end well, which makes sense given the character involved, one that can only end on an ambiguous note, and then two happy ones.  And I'm totally all right with that.  It's not a "you'll take it an you'll like it" attitude, I just like that there's at least some element of, for lack of better word, realism about it.  I have a hard time with the standard video game mentality of "if I just do things XYZ then everything will be like I want it!" because it's just so patently silly.  Sure it's a game and isn't supposed to be realistic, but it does really flesh the world out.  Just my opinion of course.


Anyways, of the past decade-or-so of BioWare, we have:



BG II - Dark beginning but works out pretty well,
especially given that originally Imoen was going to bite it at the
midpoint (and god knows I wanted her to more
than once)

BG II: ToB -
Depending on player choices, from "that was all for nothing" to "that
went unusually well"

NWN - Mostly happy ending, but Aribeth's fate retconned later so more tragic

NWN: SoU
- Don't remember well, but seemed pretty benign apart from losing
Drogan halfway

NWN: HotU - Some serious casualties, but a
decent range of outcomes

KOTOR - Again, from entirely dark to pretty totally peachy ending

Jade Empire - Never Played

Mass
Effect - Between one to two major character casualties (which the player has considerable control over), but a total triumph
regardless of choices along the way

Sonic Chronicles - It's a Sonic game; what do you expect?

DA:O - From somewhat tragic to somewhat more tragic (the loss of life at
Denirem is the only inevitable tragedy)

Mass Effect 2 - Depending on player choice, from total triumph to
bittersweet, with some romantic complications that are obvious sequel
bait

DA:A - ?

Doesn't really seem like there's a particular aversion
to happiness here.  Sure each  has its own variable helping of tragedy, but certainly doesn't seem like they're going out of their way to keep sunshine out of their games.

Modifié par archonambroseus, 20 mars 2010 - 01:31 .

[crimsonrhodelia]

fortunesque wrote...

Or!

Shep: Kaidan, I've missed you.
Kaidan: I've missed you too. Again, I'm so sorry about what I said. I'm glad you're considering having me on the SR-2
*clickclickCACHOOK*
Kaidan: OH MY GOD! YOU STAPLED MY HIP TO YOUR ABDOMEN!!!!!
Shep: And we will never part
Kaidan: I'M BLEEDING!!! YOU'RE BLEEDING!!! WE'RE BLEEDING!!!!!!!
Shep: Bleeding love out of our very hearts

Oh, Fort. I do adore you so. <3<3<3

[Einea]

TeenZombie wrote...

Rant on (and this is nothing personal, btw, I'm just generally upset...):

I'm obviously bitter right now, but do you mean to say that Alistair and Morrigan fans should just romance Zevran and Leliana and be grateful that they get that much?  Two of the possible four romances end in ambiguous, unsatisifying ways and there is no way out of it. 

Personally, I feel that UNAVOIDABLE tragedy is a cheap way to end a game.  I like tragedy in books, but happy endings nowadays are actually the refreshing and different way to go.  If I wanted Cormac MacCarthy type unending misery, I'd be off reading it, not playing a game with choices.

I remember beating ME1 for the first time, seeing Shepard come out of the rubble, and I squealed with pleasure.  That's one of my favorite gaming experiences.  Dark games like Planescape Torment may be memorable too, but I don't have a big smile on my face and feel like I had a great experience when I walk away.  Then there are games like NWN2, which had an ending that made me angry and disappointed, especially after the confusion at the end of KOTOR2.  

Forcing the "dark" elements of the game, with no options for escape, is cheap and manipulative.  You may enjoy it, but since I'm not the only who feels upset by Awakening, I'm not the only one who feels otherwise.

I agree with forcing the dark with no way to have a happier ending being a cheap way out. Really darker endings have a greater impact for me if there was hope for something good. It lessens the impact if all roads lead that way anyways imo.

[fortunesque]

I think it should be obvious that there's no way to work it out...



I'll cite Thane as an example. It's the same thing as meeting and falling in love with a terminal cancer patient. There's no cure; you cherish the rest of the precious time you have left with them.



But I'm of the mindset that a majority of the romances should have a way of working things out. Like Teen said, I'm very against *contrived* tragedy. .

[Kabraxal]

Einea wrote...

TeenZombie wrote...

Rant on (and this is nothing personal, btw, I'm just generally upset...):

I'm obviously bitter right now, but do you mean to say that Alistair and Morrigan fans should just romance Zevran and Leliana and be grateful that they get that much?  Two of the possible four romances end in ambiguous, unsatisifying ways and there is no way out of it. 

Personally, I feel that UNAVOIDABLE tragedy is a cheap way to end a game.  I like tragedy in books, but happy endings nowadays are actually the refreshing and different way to go.  If I wanted Cormac MacCarthy type unending misery, I'd be off reading it, not playing a game with choices.

I remember beating ME1 for the first time, seeing Shepard come out of the rubble, and I squealed with pleasure.  That's one of my favorite gaming experiences.  Dark games like Planescape Torment may be memorable too, but I don't have a big smile on my face and feel like I had a great experience when I walk away.  Then there are games like NWN2, which had an ending that made me angry and disappointed, especially after the confusion at the end of KOTOR2.  

Forcing the "dark" elements of the game, with no options for escape, is cheap and manipulative.  You may enjoy it, but since I'm not the only who feels upset by Awakening, I'm not the only one who feels otherwise.

I agree with forcing the dark with no way to have a happier ending being a cheap way out. Really darker endings have a greater impact for me if there was hope for something good. It lessens the impact if all roads lead that way anyways imo.

The Ultimate Sacrifice with an unhardened Leliana is a good example of that.  Since you can have something better, that ending is all the more poignant.  It isn't a "no matter how you play, the theme is always the same".

[syllogi]

archonambroseus wrote...
Thanks for the disclaimer.

LOL, I added that after writing the rest, I was really addressing myself to David Gaider and the rest of the Awakening developers, my nerdrage wasn't directed at you.

archonambroseus wrote...

Doesn't really seem like there's a particular aversion
to happiness here.  Sure each  has its own variable helping of tragedy, but certainly doesn't seem like they're going out of their way to keep sunshine out of their games.

Right now, what upsets me is that the slide that negates whatever I feel would be a happy ending with Alistair is totally unnecessary.  They could have written something more general, that would leave an opening for future adventures, without making me think "WHY WOULD MY CHARACTER DO THAT???"    It's almost as bad as Revan just leaving Bastila or Carth behind in KOTOR2, and we will NEVER know why.  Maybe they'll explain it later, but right now I feel like I've been cheated out of any satisfying conclusion for my preferred character. 

Argh.  I'm drinking wine now, maybe I'll feel better soon.

[BloodyTemplar]

fortunesque wrote...

Or!

Shep: Kaidan, I've missed you.
Kaidan: I've missed you too. Again, I'm so sorry about what I said. I'm glad you're considering having me on the SR-2
*clickclickCACHOOK*
Kaidan: OH MY GOD! YOU STAPLED MY HIP TO YOUR ABDOMEN!!!!!
Shep: And we will never part
Kaidan: I'M BLEEDING!!! YOU'RE BLEEDING!!! WE'RE BLEEDING!!!!!!!
Shep: Bleeding love out of our very hearts

You're a very disturbed individual.

[fortunesque]

BloodyTemplar wrote...

fortunesque wrote...

Or!

Shep: Kaidan, I've missed you.
Kaidan: I've missed you too. Again, I'm so sorry about what I said. I'm glad you're considering having me on the SR-2
*clickclickCACHOOK*
Kaidan: OH MY GOD! YOU STAPLED MY HIP TO YOUR ABDOMEN!!!!!
Shep: And we will never part
Kaidan: I'M BLEEDING!!! YOU'RE BLEEDING!!! WE'RE BLEEDING!!!!!!!
Shep: Bleeding love out of our very hearts

You're a very disturbed individual.

Nope. Shepard is. Bioware made her do it

[archonambroseus]

TeenZombie wrote...

It's almost as bad as Revan just leaving Bastila or Carth behind in KOTOR2, and we will NEVER know why.

Probably because it was written by Obsidian.

TeenZombie wrote...

Argh. 
I'm drinking wine now, maybe I'll feel better soon.

I'll drink to that!

[sapphyreelf]

fortunesque wrote...

BloodyTemplar wrote...

fortunesque wrote...

Or!

Shep: Kaidan, I've missed you.
Kaidan: I've missed you too. Again, I'm so sorry about what I said. I'm glad you're considering having me on the SR-2
*clickclickCACHOOK*
Kaidan: OH MY GOD! YOU STAPLED MY HIP TO YOUR ABDOMEN!!!!!
Shep: And we will never part
Kaidan: I'M BLEEDING!!! YOU'RE BLEEDING!!! WE'RE BLEEDING!!!!!!!
Shep: Bleeding love out of our very hearts

You're a very disturbed individual.

Nope. Shepard is. Bioware made her do it

If Shepard didn't do it, Kaidan may get away again.

[sapphyreelf]

TeenZombie wrote...

archonambroseus wrote...
Thanks for the disclaimer.

LOL, I added that after writing the rest, I was really addressing myself to David Gaider and the rest of the Awakening developers, my nerdrage wasn't directed at you.

archonambroseus wrote...

Doesn't really seem like there's a particular aversion
to happiness here.  Sure each  has its own variable helping of tragedy, but certainly doesn't seem like they're going out of their way to keep sunshine out of their games.

Right now, what upsets me is that the slide that negates whatever I feel would be a happy ending with Alistair is totally unnecessary.  They could have written something more general, that would leave an opening for future adventures, without making me think "WHY WOULD MY CHARACTER DO THAT???"    It's almost as bad as Revan just leaving Bastila or Carth behind in KOTOR2, and we will NEVER know why.  Maybe they'll explain it later, but right now I feel like I've been cheated out of any satisfying conclusion for my preferred character. 

Argh.  I'm drinking wine now, maybe I'll feel better soon.

And that's where I've been since the slide.

[crimsonrhodelia]

fortunesque wrote...

BloodyTemplar wrote...

fortunesque wrote...

Or!

Shep: Kaidan, I've missed you.
Kaidan: I've missed you too. Again, I'm so sorry about what I said. I'm glad you're considering having me on the SR-2
*clickclickCACHOOK*
Kaidan: OH MY GOD! YOU STAPLED MY HIP TO YOUR ABDOMEN!!!!!
Shep: And we will never part
Kaidan: I'M BLEEDING!!! YOU'RE BLEEDING!!! WE'RE BLEEDING!!!!!!!
Shep: Bleeding love out of our very hearts

You're a very disturbed individual.

Nope. Shepard is. Bioware made her do it

Pfff. Fort and her Shep FTW. My Shep would totally do the same. Kaidan? Rrrowr!

[BloodyTemplar]

sapphyreelf wrote...

fortunesque wrote...

BloodyTemplar wrote...

fortunesque wrote...

Or!

Shep: Kaidan, I've missed you.
Kaidan: I've missed you too. Again, I'm so sorry about what I said. I'm glad you're considering having me on the SR-2
*clickclickCACHOOK*
Kaidan: OH MY GOD! YOU STAPLED MY HIP TO YOUR ABDOMEN!!!!!
Shep: And we will never part
Kaidan: I'M BLEEDING!!! YOU'RE BLEEDING!!! WE'RE BLEEDING!!!!!!!
Shep: Bleeding love out of our very hearts

You're a very disturbed individual.

Nope. Shepard is. Bioware made her do it

If Shepard didn't do it, Kaidan may get away again.

sapphy & fort:

[Collider]

Great conversation here. I have to say forcing tragedy unto us is slapping the fans in the face. Although I would genuinely preferred the Alistair and Morrigan romances in DA:O to be less tragic and dark, it's more excusable in Dragon Age than it would be in Mass Effect 3. Dragon Age is a single game, and we were alerted before hand that it would be a dark fantasy game. True, Mass Effect 3 can be marketed as another dark chapter in the series, but that doesn't make up for the fact that Mass Effect is a trilogy.

How do you think people would react if at the end of Episode 6 (I think that's the last one) in Star Wars, Luke died? And Vader/Emperor continued to rule over the galaxy with an iron fist as if nothing had happened and all the rebel's struggles were for naught? You'd feel like, that was lame.

While tragedy can make for good story telling the writers and developers also have to consider taste. We've grown attached to these characters over the course of two games. Would even be worse if the ME1 romances ended badly in ME3 considering how you all had to endure ME2 without them for the large part. And tragedy is not inherently good story telling, either. And the writers can conceivably just listen to the fans and give them what we want - which is not to be punished for our love interests. They've still got a lot of room to do just that.

Modifié par Collider, 20 mars 2010 - 01:50 .