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[taigin]

Collider wrote...

crimsonrhodelia wrote...
Come to think of it, it's really, really hard for me to pick a favourite romance between Kaidan's and Alistair's - as much as I love to tease and flirt with Alistair, Kaidan may just win out because there's so much depth to him and you really get a feel for his opinions on certain subjects (humanity's place in the galaxy, etc. etc., relationship with the Council races, etc).

I agree, you get more of a sense of Kaidan's opinion or views than you did with Alistair. Alistair did approve or disapprove of your choices, but I think Kaidan was deeper in this aspect. There were a few things that Dragon Age did better in the romance than in Mass Effect though, like being able to give (meaningful) gifts to each other and develop the romance at your own pace.

One of the major reasons I prefer Kaidan over Alistair is that I feel Kaidan is on the same level as Shepard (mentally). I think he would make a good leader, but at the same time he knows his place (but isn't afraid of giving advice, like the cutting corner dialogue). Alistair is too much of a follower for my taste. This is something they constructed on purpose though so that the origins character would have a reason to take over the lead. Alistair was initially suppost to be a 35 year old veteran but it was changed since it didn't make sense for the origin char to take lead over him. Because of that I think there is a much more interesting dynamic in the relationship between Kaidan and Shep.

[RyrineaNara]

The other reason, I prefer Kaidan is that he is the most stable of the group.

[Collider]

taigin wrote...
One of the major reasons I prefer Kaidan over Alistair is that I feel Kaidan is on the same level as Shepard (mentally).

I agree, Kaidan is more mature.

I think he would make a good leader, but at the same time he knows his place (but isn't afraid of giving advice, like the cutting corner dialogue).

Yep. If I recall correctly, Kaidan tells Shepard that he hasn't lost anyone under his command.

Alistair is too much of a follower for my taste. This is something they constructed on purpose though so that the origins character would have a reason to take over the lead.

That's very true. Since there were only two wardens left.

Alistair was initially suppost to be a 35 year old veteran but it was changed since it didn't make sense for the origin char to take lead over him.

Really? That explains his concept art where he looks more mature.

[Brijenieve]

Have the beginning of a new fic that needs Beta-ing.

Help?

[Joisan]

Brijenieve wrote...

Have the beginning of a new fic that needs Beta-ing.
Help?

I'm a little busy on vacation right now, but I'd love to see it    I should be able to get back to you with some feedback this evening.

[Brijenieve]

Joisan wrote...
I'm a little busy on vacation right now, but I'd love to see it    I should be able to get back to you with some feedback this evening.

Awesome; do you know where to go, or should I PM the link?
It's a quickie (hah) - first chapter/installation of something a little bit longer. 

Also, random, just made a table of contents link for my fanfic page with just the fanfics listed, so you don't have to browse through the whole blog to find a particular fic. It's in the links box on the right. 

[Lianna sFfalenn]

Jhosephine wrote...

Quaay wrote...

Someone post a Kaidan pic to bleach the Jacob images out of my mind plz!

*is a fangirl puddle on the floor* Damn, that's good, Jho!

I was going to say how this should have been the "afterglow moment" instead of JOKERSWAITINGFORYOUONTHEBRIDGE...but when I thought about it more I decided it probably was good that Joker interrupted after all. If my Shep had seen that when Kaidan woke up and found her staring at him, the Citadel would be a smoking ruin now.

[archonambroseus]

taigin wrote...

One of the major reasons I prefer Kaidan over Alistair is that I feel Kaidan is on the same level as Shepard (mentally). I think he would make a good leader, but at the same time he knows his place (but isn't afraid of giving advice, like the cutting corner dialogue). Alistair is too much of a follower for my taste. This is something they constructed on purpose though so that the origins character would have a reason to take over the lead. Alistair was initially suppost to be a 35 year old veteran but it was changed since it didn't make sense for the origin char to take lead over him. Because of that I think there is a much more interesting dynamic in the relationship between Kaidan and Shep.

Very interesting observations.  Plus, I think it also helps that you can actually see the Shepard/Alenko interactions in full rather than clicking a dialogue choice and seeing the reaction.  You just can't quite get the same level of "spark" in the DA:O conversation mechanics.

[Alice829]

jillyfae wrote...

Jhosephine wrote...

sapphyreelf wrote...

Well, it's not just cutting corners. There's also that lingering doubt if Shep just faked the whole death thing to join up two years ago. You can tell him you were clinically dead, but people don't come back from the dead, so it is easier to rationalize that Shep was never really dead, and I think that factors partly into the reaction on Horizon.

Agreed, even Shep's mom (as a Spacer) believes something like that. It does make sense come to think of it, it's just easier to believe indeed.

I just feel sorry for both Kaidan and Shep for the whole death thing, it's just so unreal...all of it.

The entire situation's horrible.  Go Bioware for upping the angst, I guess.   And yes, hating Cerberus, and thinking that Shepard's taking the easy (easier?) route, plus wondering about the whole 'dead for two years' thing... I'm rather surprised Kaidan managed to be civil enough to ask Shepard to be careful at the end of his Horizon rant.

The most devastating thing he says on Horizon is that he doesn't believe her. (The actual line is something like "I'm reporting back to the Citadel; they can decide if they believe your story or not." Ouch. Sounds too much like the Turian Councillor saying how fragile her mental state is. Even if Kaidan hates Cerberus, is angry and confused at her sudden reappearance after 2 years dead, of all the people from her former life, he was supposedly the one who knew her the best, the one she opened up to. I totally understand him refusing to join her with Cerberus, I can understand he's upset and confused, but to not give her even a little bit of the benefit of the doubt that she's doing what she thinks is right, even if he disagrees with her, is a big problem. Even Anderson coughs up an "I believe you", and Chakwas, who's a real stickler. Lots of relationships fail over one partner's refusal to believe the other at a crucial moment.  I could totally see Kaidan asking her a question and her responding "would you even believe me if I told you?" The rebuilding of trust has to be one of the first things addressed in ME3, maybe a mission where Kaidan shows that he does believe her and does trust her judgment. Otherwise, it's hollow, like Jacob asking Shep 5 minutes after he meets her if she trusts him (if you have to ask...)

Then again, I don't trust Jacob at all.

[Jhourney]

Lianna sFfalenn wrote...

I was going to say how this should have been the "afterglow moment" instead of JOKERSWAITINGFORYOUONTHEBRIDGE...but when I thought about it more I decided it probably was good that Joker interrupted after all. If my Shep had seen that when Kaidan woke up and found her staring at him, the Citadel would be a smoking ruin now.

Indeed, Shepard would never have left the bed....ever I can see it being a daydream as well. Kaidan reaching for Shepard, smiling..."It will alright, I'm right there with you. You're not alone." And when she reaches out in return, the image fades and she's called to the bridge as the Normandy approaches the relay.

Awwww...darnit, reading too much into my pics again

Modifié par Jhosephine, 22 mars 2010 - 04:11 .

[Alice829]

By the way, lovely picture Jho.

[Collider]

Alice829 wrote...
stuff

Well, you have to put a few things into perspective. Someone is missing for two years, probably dead, and then shows up saying they were ressurrected and are working for a terrorist organization (imagine if a loved one or a friend joined an terrorist organization like Al-Qaeda) Although it's clear that Kaidan loves Shepard, they haven't known each other for the longest time either.

Also, you have to account for the fact that both Kaidan and Ashley needed justification not to join Shepard (so they could survive) If they knew the whole picture, then of course they'd join. But they don't - so far as they know you've joined a terrorist organization which is so out of character for Shepard. Either way, it's pretty clear to me that Kaidan and Ash will make up with Shepard in ME3.

[Alice829]

How about the line they used a zillion times in ME1 "I hope you know what you're doing, Commander." ?

[AkodoRyu]

Alice829 wrote...

By the way, lovely picture Jho.

Ditto.


And... Frak. No I won't >_>

[Collider]

Somebody1003 wrote...

Collider wrote...

Well, you have to put a few things into perspective. Someone is missing for two years, probably dead, and then shows up saying they were ressurrected and are working for a terrorist organization (imagine if a loved one or a friend joined an terrorist organization like Al-Qaeda) Although it's clear that Kaidan loves Shepard, they haven't known each other for the longest time either.

Also, you have to account for the fact that both Kaidan and Ashley needed justification not to join Shepard (so they could survive) If they knew the whole picture, then of course they'd join. But they don't - so far as they know you've joined a terrorist organization which is so out of character for Shepard. Either way, it's pretty clear to me that Kaidan and Ash will make up with Shepard in ME3.

I dont think they would have ever joined though actually, both of them hate Cerberus, and are faithful to the Alliance.

Good point...I'll have to reconsider what I said. But I do think it's important that they didn't know everything.

[milkabi]

Hi everyone,

Just a quick wave before I get back to marking, the thread is so interesting today. and just because of the lovely pictures.



As for Kaidan not trusting Shepard, they both have seen how people that were being trusted (Saren ) could be manipulated, brainwashed and indoctrinated in ways they themselves did not realise. Saren belived that the only way to be safe was to cooperate with the enemy. Now Shepard is cooperating with Cerberus who knows what they have done to her from Kaidan's point of view. It is not just about his trust he represents the alliance and too many things are at stake if he is wrong.

[taigin]

archonambroseus wrote...

taigin wrote...

One of the major reasons I prefer Kaidan over Alistair is that I feel Kaidan is on the same level as Shepard (mentally). I think he would make a good leader, but at the same time he knows his place (but isn't afraid of giving advice, like the cutting corner dialogue). Alistair is too much of a follower for my taste. This is something they constructed on purpose though so that the origins character would have a reason to take over the lead. Alistair was initially suppost to be a 35 year old veteran but it was changed since it didn't make sense for the origin char to take lead over him. Because of that I think there is a much more interesting dynamic in the relationship between Kaidan and Shep.

Very interesting observations.  Plus, I think it also helps that you can actually see the Shepard/Alenko interactions in full rather than clicking a dialogue choice and seeing the reaction.  You just can't quite get the same level of "spark" in the DA:O conversation mechanics.

Yea I agree. Having a voiced protagonist really helps to create immersion. It works both way though. It can be immersion breaking if Bioware force a stance for Shepard that you don't agree with (i'm looking at you skanky Shepard!). Playing awakening after I played through Me1 and 2 a couple of times feels really strange. It feels somewhat empty to not have my char talk or respond.

[Alice829]

milkabi wrote...

Hi everyone,
Just a quick wave before I get back to marking, the thread is so interesting today. and just because of the lovely pictures.

As for Kaidan not trusting Shepard, they both have seen how people that were being trusted (Saren ) could be manipulated, brainwashed and indoctrinated in ways they themselves did not realise. Saren belived that the only way to be safe was to cooperate with the enemy. Now Shepard is cooperating with Cerberus who knows what they have done to her from Kaidan's point of view. It is not just about his trust he represents the alliance and too many things are at stake if he is wrong.

I understand what you're saying, but I was speaking on a more personal level than "big picture" decisions. I would contrast his reaction with Anderson's, who also worries that she is being manipulated (which I think she is to some degree, given TIM's lies about everything from Liara to the Collector ship), but believes that she's doing the best she can and gives her some background support (keeping the Council and the Alliance off her back). This is more about the person you love and trust looking you in the eye and telling you they don't believe you. That's not the same as saying "you're making a bad decision".

Modifié par Alice829, 22 mars 2010 - 04:46 .

[jillyfae]

Alice829 wrote...

milkabi wrote...

Hi everyone,
Just a quick wave before I get back to marking, the thread is so interesting today. and just because of the lovely pictures.

As for Kaidan not trusting Shepard, they both have seen how people that were being trusted (Saren ) could be manipulated, brainwashed and indoctrinated in ways they themselves did not realise. Saren belived that the only way to be safe was to cooperate with the enemy. Now Shepard is cooperating with Cerberus who knows what they have done to her from Kaidan's point of view. It is not just about his trust he represents the alliance and too many things are at stake if he is wrong.

I understand what you're saying, but I was speaking on a more personal level than "big picture" decisions. I would contrast his reaction with Anderson's, who also worries that she is being manipulated (which I think she is to some degree, given TIM's lies about everything from Liara to the Collector ship), but believes that she's doing the best she can and gives her some background support (keeping the Council and the Alliance off her back). This is more about the person you love and trust looking you in the eye and telling you they don't believe you. That's not the same as saying "you're making a bad decision".

I agree that that's exactly what Kaidan did, and as Shepard I'd be furious with him for not trusting me.  However, the style and circumstances of her return hurt him badly enough that I think it would be out of character if he didn't lash out that severely.  I wouldn't have believed her either, if I was him.  TBH, it's a much better personal conflict that I've come across in a romantic subplot lately, as it doesn't require one or the other of them to be acting like an idiot.

[milkabi]

On a personal level Kaidan not believing Shepard is differnt I agree and It hurts my Shepard a lot, she even snapped at Joker after Horizon. Not to mention that is never easy separating the personal from the big picture. I am trying to see both sides and it is just such a complex situation with no easy answers. For me that is what makes ME interesting one situation and few words have so many nuanaces and give characters debt and compexity.

[archonambroseus]

Don't forget that assuming Kaidan believes the Cerberus resuscitation story, there's really nothing to stop him from expecting that they implanted a control chip (which, incidentally, they almost did; note that TIM's reasoning was that it may slightly alter Shepard's personality, not that it was a monstrous act) or otherwise conditioned Shepard. Given that his intel suggested that Cerberus and by extension Shepard may have been perpetrating the attacks on the colonies, it makes total sense that he not take everything Shepard says at face value.

[taigin]

milkabi wrote...

On a personal level Kaidan not believing Shepard is differnt I agree and It hurts my Shepard a lot, she even snapped at Joker after Horizon. Not to mention that is never easy separating the personal from the big picture. I am trying to see both sides and it is just such a complex situation with no easy answers. For me that is what makes ME interesting one situation and few words have so many nuanaces and give characters debt and compexity.

Agree. The complexity and the ups and downs of the relationship really just makes it more interesting and emotional. I just hope Bioware awards us for actually fighting for Kaidan. The easy way would just be to give up, get pissed, and take comfort with some other Li that is offered in Me2.

[Collider]

taigin wrote...
Agree. The complexity and the ups and downs of the relationship really just makes it more interesting and emotional. I just hope Bioware awards us for actually fighting for Kaidan. The easy way would just be to give up, get pissed, and take comfort with some other Li that is offered in Me2.

As I recall, their exact words were that those who were faithful will be rewarded in ME3

[sapphyreelf]

Collider wrote...

taigin wrote...
Agree. The complexity and the ups and downs of the relationship really just makes it more interesting and emotional. I just hope Bioware awards us for actually fighting for Kaidan. The easy way would just be to give up, get pissed, and take comfort with some other Li that is offered in Me2.

As I recall, their exact words were that those who were faithful will be rewarded in ME3

And if this isn't the case, prepare for the rioting.