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[Doug84]

Joisan wrote...

RyrineaNara wrote...

Joisan wrote...

Okay. Links to fanfic have been duly posted and I finally got the formatting fixed to my satisfaction. Must be dinner time.

I love your writing Joisan it was very emotional. 

Doug84 wrote...
Ok, I've read most of the story, and I have to say I like it alot! You do the emotional side of things very well, I find, and handle the romance side of things well - definitely an area I find hard to do, so definite thumbs up from me. Can send an idea or two if you want feedback, but I reckon you'll be fine regardless

Aww thanks.  Yeah, I find emotion much easier to write than action!  Doug, I'd love to hear any feedback you have; constructive suggestions are vital to improving a writer's craft.

And I find emotion alot harder to write than action And sure, I'll finish off and read through bits again and PM you with a few ideas - though I can't really see much to improve on, heh.

sapphyreelf wrote...
It was a very sweet read Joisan.

Indeedie!

[syllogi]

Daewan wrote...

TeenZombie wrote...
(snipped)
Argh, no kidding, I'm at the point now where I don't want to watch anymore Joss Whedon shows, because it's inevitable that whatever characters I like will DIE, the moment they fall in love or are happy for more than three seconds.  You can have a compelling story without making everything dire and tragic all the time.
(snipped again)

Okay, name a compelling story where nothing dire and tragic happens.  If it didn't happen when they were happy or in love, it wouldn't be tragic!

Humans (this includes you, unless you're secretly a sentient bagel) like tragedy.  We like it because it gives us something to overcome.  We like hearing/reading about it because we identify with the struggle more than the result.  From the first humans huddled around a fire, the stories told were about great battles and dangerous hunts.  This is why newspapers have disasters on the front page, and one column for human interest stories.

Everyone knows Romeo and Juliet even though most people haven't read it.  It's why most date movies are tearjerkers.

Okay, I just came home, and the first books that I saw on my shelf that are compelling and NOT nonstop dire and tragic are Moneyball, The Powers That Be, and I Am America And You Can Too!, and my favorite essayist is David Sedaris, so yes, it's very possible to find stories that are compelling without being unrelentingly gloomy.  I have a bunch of fantasy books that are pretty untragic too, but I don't want to fully reveal how big a nerd I am, even here. 

I don't *mind* tragedy in fiction, and most of the books I read have it, in one degree to another, but I don't need to be constantly reminded what a cruddy world we live in, and how horrible people are, in order to believe the story I'm being told is good.  Humor is just as powerful as tragedy as a storytelling device, as is romance, as this thread and the other LI threads attest. 

I didn't mind the end of Dragon Age: Origins, for instance, as much as some people did, but that was because I wasn't very attached to my Grey Warden, the way I am to Shepard.  I would be *very* bummed if my Shepard didn't get a good ending, after all she's been through.  I wouldn't mind if there were plenty of action BEFORE the end, but for me, a happy ending is important, and will make the series better overall.

[crimsonrhodelia]

The Angry One wrote...

But then you find out reality is even worse, as Shepard has been promoted to Admiral in charge of the Podunk Nowhere sector, and Kaidan married Khalisah Bin Sinan Al-Jilani.

All right, that's it, she's earned that punch in the face now.

[crimsonrhodelia]

Doug84 wrote...

sapphyreelf wrote...

I am torturing myself today it seems. Migraine went away courtesy of meds, just in time for me to get to Horizon with my renegade femShep. So, can I please have some smexy Kaidan pics?

*grumbles* Fine, I'll engage in the posting of Kaidan pics.



Now if you'll excuse me, I need to do something manly before the guys recall my equipment.

ONE OF US! ONE OF US!

:D:D

[Doug84]

crimsonrhodelia wrote...

Doug84 wrote...

sapphyreelf wrote...

I am torturing myself today it seems. Migraine went away courtesy of meds, just in time for me to get to Horizon with my renegade femShep. So, can I please have some smexy Kaidan pics?

*grumbles* Fine, I'll engage in the posting of Kaidan pics.



Now if you'll excuse me, I need to do something manly before the guys recall my equipment.

ONE OF US! ONE OF US!

:D:D

No...noo! I have a receipt for a set of balls! I have them! 

*cowers in the corner as THE guys close in*

[chem light]

Doug84 wrote...

crimsonrhodelia wrote...

Doug84 wrote...

sapphyreelf wrote...

I am torturing myself today it seems. Migraine went away courtesy of meds, just in time for me to get to Horizon with my renegade femShep. So, can I please have some smexy Kaidan pics?

*grumbles* Fine, I'll engage in the posting of Kaidan pics.



Now if you'll excuse me, I need to do something manly before the guys recall my equipment.

ONE OF US! ONE OF US!

:D:D

No...noo! I have a receipt for a set of balls! I have them! 

*cowers in the corner as THE guys close in*

Ah don't worry, as long as the guys closing in aren't krogan you have nothing to worry about.

[Nhani]

Doug84 wrote...
Its sort of like the old campy 70's Batman - it was always certain that Batman and Robin would escape whatever trap they where in last episode because of Batman's infinitely big utility belt. There was no risk of failure, and no 'reward' to victory because it was a certain bet.

But some days you just can't get rid of a bomb.

[chem light]

Nhani wrote...

Doug84 wrote...
Its sort of like the old campy 70's Batman - it was always certain that Batman and Robin would escape whatever trap they where in last episode because of Batman's infinitely big utility belt. There was no risk of failure, and no 'reward' to victory because it was a certain bet.

But some days you just can't get rid of a bomb.

www.youtube.com/watch

[crimsonrhodelia]

Doug84 wrote...

crimsonrhodelia wrote...

Doug84 wrote...

sapphyreelf wrote...

I am torturing myself today it seems. Migraine went away courtesy of meds, just in time for me to get to Horizon with my renegade femShep. So, can I please have some smexy Kaidan pics?

*grumbles* Fine, I'll engage in the posting of Kaidan pics.



Now if you'll excuse me, I need to do something manly before the guys recall my equipment.

ONE OF US! ONE OF US!

:D:D

No...noo! I have a receipt for a set of balls! I have them! 

*cowers in the corner as THE guys close in*

Aw, Doug. Being a diplomat, like you are, liaisoning between the Ash and the Kaidan lovers is a tough, manly job! It certainly takes balls of steel to come in here and put up with the "I'd like to lick x type of food off Kaidan's hunky naked chest" comments and the Kitty Kaidans.

[Doug84]

Nhani wrote...

Doug84 wrote...
Its sort of like the old campy 70's Batman - it was always certain that Batman and Robin would escape whatever trap they where in last episode because of Batman's infinitely big utility belt. There was no risk of failure, and no 'reward' to victory because it was a certain bet.

But some days you just can't get rid of a bomb.

Indeedie - what I'm saying is, batman COULD always get rid of the bomb...with his Bat-Anti-Bomb device. And so the show was (for this and many other reasons) pretty awful, cheesy, and you always knew that Batman and Robin would be home in time to have ******-erotically suggestive talks.

[ekkaja.marta]

Don't we have enough tragedy in ME2? You lost your life, your ship, your crew and possibly your love... Your life is in pieces and again you have to be the strong leader for everyone else and you can't show your own feelings. What's worse there is still this very important mission that only you seem to remember about, because everyone else forgot about it for the last two years.

As I said it would be great if BW gave the opportunity to fail the mission again at the end. That you would have to make the right choices to survive again. No ultimate win scenario would make the story more real.

And if their are not going to make a happy ending, this is going to be the saddest game ever.

[chem light]

Doug84 wrote...

No, no, I'm not saying Happy Endings cheapen anything.

I'm saying an absolutely CERTAIN happy ending no matter what cheapens the happy ending itself.

If the Hero isn't at risk, why is his quest heroic?

If the Task is definitely possibly, why is it heroic?

We need some tragedy in our culture somewhere or else we are effectively saying 'Happy endings are certain, you don't really need to work for them'.

As for your example re:Mars - I think we should look back to the race to land on the moon. The result was a big win for the USA, but to the Russians it was a slap to the face - their technology had been shown to be inferior, and their enemy had shown themselves capable of that technological feat. And in the context of the cold war, space faring ability was often overlapped with missile technology for several reasons.

Well, happy endings (yes Fort I said happy ending) or sad are sort of predestined in a work of fiction.  Un;ess you're suggesting you be able to "lose"  ME3.

Also, if I start to ramble and not make since, do let me know, I've been up since 3 AM and am running of caffeine and sheer will right now.  But I missed the Kai Kai forums.

[Doug84]

crimsonrhodelia wrote...

Doug84 wrote...

crimsonrhodelia wrote...

ONE OF US! ONE OF US!

:D:D

No...noo! I have a receipt for a set of balls! I have them! 

*cowers in the corner as THE guys close in*

Aw, Doug. Being a diplomat, like you are, liaisoning between the Ash and the Kaidan lovers is a tough, manly job! It certainly takes balls of steel to come in here and put up with the "I'd like to lick x type of food off Kaidan's hunky naked chest" comments and the Kitty Kaidans.

Why thank you. Though I should really see a doctor about that... too much iron in my diet, I think.

[Doug84]

ekkaja.marta wrote...

Don't we have enough tragedy in ME2? You lost your life, your ship, your crew and possibly your love... Your life is in pieces and again you have to be the strong leader for everyone else and you can't show your own feelings. What's worse there is still this very important mission that only you seem to remember about, because everyone else forgot about it for the last two years.
As I said it would be great if BW gave the opportunity to fail the mission again at the end. That you would have to make the right choices to survive again. No ultimate win scenario would make the story more real.
And if their are not going to make a happy ending, this is going to be the saddest game ever.

oh... I thought we were talking in general terms of fiction in general?

And you can actually fail the mission if you lose all your squad mates in the last mission - damn hard to do by accident though

Or you can recruit Mornith, and have 'relations' with her... and die.

[chem light]

ekkaja.marta wrote...

No ultimate win scenario would make the story more real.

I was willing to suspend reality so that I could have fun employing biotics, traveling FTL, and talking with aliens.  I can suspend reality just a little more to get a Epic Win.

[chem light]

Doug84 wrote...

ekkaja.marta wrote...

Don't we have enough tragedy in ME2? You lost your life, your ship, your crew and possibly your love... Your life is in pieces and again you have to be the strong leader for everyone else and you can't show your own feelings. What's worse there is still this very important mission that only you seem to remember about, because everyone else forgot about it for the last two years.
As I said it would be great if BW gave the opportunity to fail the mission again at the end. That you would have to make the right choices to survive again. No ultimate win scenario would make the story more real.
And if their are not going to make a happy ending, this is going to be the saddest game ever.

oh... I thought we were talking in general terms of fiction in general?

And you can actually fail the mission if you lose all your squad mates in the last mission - damn hard to do by accident though

Or you can recruit Mornith, and have 'relations' with her... and die.

Hahaha....What happens, like Critical Mission Failure?  Or, no importing this one to ME3 die?

[Doug84]

chem light wrote...

Doug84 wrote...

ekkaja.marta wrote...

Don't we have enough tragedy in ME2? You lost your life, your ship, your crew and possibly your love... Your life is in pieces and again you have to be the strong leader for everyone else and you can't show your own feelings. What's worse there is still this very important mission that only you seem to remember about, because everyone else forgot about it for the last two years.
As I said it would be great if BW gave the opportunity to fail the mission again at the end. That you would have to make the right choices to survive again. No ultimate win scenario would make the story more real.
And if their are not going to make a happy ending, this is going to be the saddest game ever.

oh... I thought we were talking in general terms of fiction in general?

And you can actually fail the mission if you lose all your squad mates in the last mission - damn hard to do by accident though

Or you can recruit Mornith, and have 'relations' with her... and die.

Hahaha....What happens, like Critical Mission Failure?  Or, no importing this one to ME3 die?

Well, with the 'everyone dies' ending, I think they said you get a funeral scene in ME 3 and thats it....

SPOILER LINKS HERE
Part 1
Part 2

The Mornith one is 'Crit mission failure'

[Nhani]

Doug84 wrote...
Indeedie - what I'm saying is, batman COULD always get rid of the bomb...with his Bat-Anti-Bomb device. And so the show was (for this and many other reasons) pretty awful, cheesy, and you always knew that Batman and Robin would be home in time to have ******-erotically suggestive talks.

No, I meant this:

chem light wrote...
www.youtube.com/watch

On a more serious note, not everything has to be tragic, nor does everything have to be happy. There's a reason there exists both tragic and simple, happy and cheerful narratives. That said, I agree that most narrative thrive on conflict in one form or another, but there's a whole lot of different ways to approach it.

I generally don't like tragic endings myself; I can somewhat appreciate them in some narratives - notably ones where it's evident tragedy is part of the whole theme, but ones that set you up only to throw a sucker punch at the end tend to bug me. I can see why some would like that, but I personally just plain get upset at it. I don't need endings to be happy, but I prefer them offering some faint glimmer of hope.

[chem light]

Doug84 wrote...

chem light wrote...

Doug84 wrote...

ekkaja.marta wrote...

Don't we have enough tragedy in ME2? You lost your life, your ship, your crew and possibly your love... Your life is in pieces and again you have to be the strong leader for everyone else and you can't show your own feelings. What's worse there is still this very important mission that only you seem to remember about, because everyone else forgot about it for the last two years.
As I said it would be great if BW gave the opportunity to fail the mission again at the end. That you would have to make the right choices to survive again. No ultimate win scenario would make the story more real.
And if their are not going to make a happy ending, this is going to be the saddest game ever.

oh... I thought we were talking in general terms of fiction in general?

And you can actually fail the mission if you lose all your squad mates in the last mission - damn hard to do by accident though

Or you can recruit Mornith, and have 'relations' with her... and die.

Hahaha....What happens, like Critical Mission Failure?  Or, no importing this one to ME3 die?

Well, with the 'everyone dies' ending, I think they said you get a funeral scene in ME 3 and thats it....

SPOILER LINKS HERE
Part 1
Part 2

The Mornith one is 'Crit mission failure'

Oh booo... Morinth should totally kill you for good!   Ha, hope no one takes her up on her offer after talking to the entire crew, gathering upgrades....

[fortunesque]

So I'm on Zaeed's mission.



Do NOT shoot the monkeys. They make the most sad, pitiful sound ever. I feel like an awful person

[Doug84]

Nhani wrote...

Doug84 wrote...
Indeedie - what I'm saying is, batman COULD always get rid of the bomb...with his Bat-Anti-Bomb device. And so the show was (for this and many other reasons) pretty awful, cheesy, and you always knew that Batman and Robin would be home in time to have ******-erotically suggestive talks.

No, I meant this:

chem light wrote...
www.youtube.com/watch

On a more serious note, not everything has to be tragic, nor does everything have to be happy. There's a reason there exists both tragic and simple, happy and cheerful narratives. That said, I agree that most narrative thrive on conflict in one form or another, but there's a whole lot of different ways to approach it.

I generally don't like tragic endings myself; I can somewhat appreciate them in some narratives - notably ones where it's evident tragedy is part of the whole theme, but ones that set you up only to throw a sucker punch at the end tend to bug me. I can see why some would like that, but I personally just plain get upset at it. I don't need endings to be happy, but I prefer them offering some faint glimmer of hope.

Indeedie - I wasn't saying "All endings HAVE to be tragic" , I was saying "Some endings have to be tragic".

If the world did not know tragedy...well, we'd all probably be alot happier, but life would probably be very boring. Every plan would succeed, every risk rewarded, every quest forefilled.

Its like the argument of why fiction needs evil - without evil, how can we highlight the good? I hate it, but its true. Without the man who kicks puppies and tries to shut down fun fairs, how would we know that the guy who pets puppies and runs the fun fair at non-profit to help the poor have a day of fun was not common? We need that contrast, sadly.

[ekkaja.marta]

Doug84 wrote...

oh... I thought we were talking in general terms of fiction in general?

And you can actually fail the mission if you lose all your squad mates in the last mission - damn hard to do by accident though

Or you can recruit Mornith, and have 'relations' with her... and die.

Fiction in general - I used to love tragic endings in films and books, and I still think it's right that some stories end badly. No argue about that.
But right now when it comes to ME3 - after DAO, I've had enough of them, and I think it wouldn't fit ME universe. But it's just my personal opinion.

[syllogi]

fortunesque wrote...

So I'm on Zaeed's mission.

Do NOT shoot the monkeys. They make the most sad, pitiful sound ever. I feel like an awful person

LOL.  I shot them, but it was to make my son laugh. 

I also punched the pyjak on Tuchanka just for him.  

[RedNanaki]

Doug84 wrote...
We need some tragedy in our culture somewhere or else we are effectively saying 'Happy endings are certain, you don't really need to work for them'.

As for your example re:Mars - I think we should look back to the race to land on the moon. The result was a big win for the USA, but to the Russians it was a slap to the face - their technology had been shown to be inferior, and their enemy had shown themselves capable of that technological feat. And in the context of the cold war, space faring ability was often overlapped with missile technology for several reasons.

But then the US went all crazy with their national defense education act and DARPA and God knows what else!

As for tragedy...  too much of it can really turn me off a story. As an example I tried reading this book called Cathedral of the Sea, but after several chapters of nothing but a boy suffering at every turn and eventually sitting alone in the town sqare below his father's hung corpse drowning in grief I couldn't take it anymore.  I like mystery though... and more light-hearted stories like The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.
The grand trilogies all tend to end all happily even though the hero(es) had to make sacrifices along the way, and they always get the girl. Always.  

[chem light]

Doug84 wrote...

Nhani wrote...

Doug84 wrote...
Indeedie - what I'm saying is, batman COULD always get rid of the bomb...with his Bat-Anti-Bomb device. And so the show was (for this and many other reasons) pretty awful, cheesy, and you always knew that Batman and Robin would be home in time to have ******-erotically suggestive talks.

No, I meant this:

chem light wrote...
www.youtube.com/watch

On a more serious note, not everything has to be tragic, nor does everything have to be happy. There's a reason there exists both tragic and simple, happy and cheerful narratives. That said, I agree that most narrative thrive on conflict in one form or another, but there's a whole lot of different ways to approach it.

I generally don't like tragic endings myself; I can somewhat appreciate them in some narratives - notably ones where it's evident tragedy is part of the whole theme, but ones that set you up only to throw a sucker punch at the end tend to bug me. I can see why some would like that, but I personally just plain get upset at it. I don't need endings to be happy, but I prefer them offering some faint glimmer of hope.

Indeedie - I wasn't saying "All endings HAVE to be tragic" , I was saying "Some endings have to be tragic".

If the world did not know tragedy...well, we'd all probably be alot happier, but life would probably be very boring. Every plan would succeed, every risk rewarded, every quest forefilled.

Its like the argument of why fiction needs evil - without evil, how can we highlight the good? I hate it, but its true. Without the man who kicks puppies and tries to shut down fun fairs, how would we know that the guy who pets puppies and runs the fun fair at non-profit to help the poor have a day of fun was not common? We need that contrast, sadly.

We don't need a man to kick puppies.  We have Fort to shoot monkies!