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[MMA7FF]

Lareit are you seriously suggesting removing 6 characters from the game......

[Goat_Shepard]

Geth Hunter Alpha wrote...


He (Hudson) says

"We didn't even intend those (he cut that sentence off but you know what he was gonna say), in fact the writers were worried, that you know, shes got chicken feet. shes got a mask. -seperate sentence here- Um you know people arent going to be interested in her as a love interesest so we werent expecting it, but they were. So those character obivously worked that way even though they weren't meant to.

Works for me. I'ma read it in the future though just to be sure. We'll get to the bottom of this even if I need to mapquest Casey Hudson's house!

[1490]

Collider wrote...

1490 wrote...
I'll be the devil's advocate here and say that because of the sheltered upbringing, she is more likely to be bisexual.  Most of us are straight because we've been raised to follow certain gender roles, like wearing certain types of clothes and liking certain activities.  By the same standard, we're tought what type of people we're supposed to be attracted to.  In the Flotilla, gender lines are blurred: people all wear the same type of suits, they all perform the same jobs and participate in the same activities.  They aren't likely tought to be masculine or feminine because they need to fill a variety of roles.  Tali is even more likely to be like this because her parents were less involved in her upbringing (at least we know her father was). 

I REALLY dislike this discussion, because it is using stereotypes to sexuality. Basically, what it amounts to is you using preconceived streotypes and conceptions to reason that a person who is more likely to be bisexual. That's rather closeminded of you. I'm sure lesbians and bisexual women would be very offended if you tried to suggest that they were lesbian or bisexual because of a troubled childhood, instead of it just being a minor part of their personaltiy.

That's not what I was trying to imply at all.  There are very few parents who completely eliminate gender roles from raising their children, but most do not.  FOr instance, most parents dress their sons in boys' clothing not girls' clothing, and they do not buy them dolls or makeup to play with.  That is gender role construction and it exists in most human societies.  I by no means meant to imply that it is right to do this, but it is how most people raise their children.

[herbie dog]

/uploads_user/1471000/1470935/20240.gif
Hi my Fellow Talimancers!
How are you all?

[Lareit]

1490 wrote...



I'll be the devil's advocate here and say that because of the sheltered upbringing, she is more likely to be bisexual.  Most of us are straight because we've been raised to follow certain gender roles, like wearing certain types of clothes and liking certain activities.  By the same standard, we're tought what type of people we're supposed to be attracted to.  In the Flotilla, gender lines are blurred: people all wear the same type of suits, they all perform the same jobs and participate in the same activities.  They aren't likely tought to be masculine or feminine because they need to fill a variety of roles.  Tali is even more likely to be like this because her parents were less involved in her upbringing (at least we know her father was). 

1. We know she admired her father.
2. It's not a matter of being restricted by principle so much as by act. She has no more experiance having sex with guys then she does girls.
3. She WAS raised to believe in a specific gender pairing.  Single child family units are the rule on the flotilla. They are necessary to encourage the population stability of the flotilla.


I'm not saying she can't be Bi or Lesbian(we know she's not that). But she is far less likely then Jack who we know is Bi. Or miranda who has a strong enough daddy issue to be put off to being with guys forever.

[Jake71887]

1490 wrote...

Jake71887 wrote...

Goat_Shepard wrote...

1490 wrote...
 Tali couldn't even get sick from a lot of bacteria Shepard had because they eat byproducts of human metabolism, and humans and quarians eat different foods.  Human viruses would never make her sick because she doesn't have the right type of DNA for them to latch onto.  Her most likely chance of getting sick would be from a dextro-DNA bacteria that someone like Garrus could have brought aboard the ship, but he's not walking around in Shep's room, so that minimizes the chances greatly.

Also, she and Mordin talk about having allergic reactions to different types of tissue, but you get allergies because you have an overactive immune system: she has a sh*tty immune system, so an allergic reaction is much, much less likely than getting a standard infection.

In conclusion, it would be way safer for Tali to do it with Shep than with a male Quarian.

Interesting read. Especially that last sentence. So why did Tali say "maybe I get a fever, maybe I'm out for a week, maybe it kills me"? She didn't have the immuno boosters but would it be THAT bad?

Quarian bodies evolved to overreact to any foreign objects, that's the fever, and depending on what and how much of those objects that enter in her system, would determine the severity

That's simply the body's normal immune response to a foreign object.  A fever is a tool the body  uses to increase metabolism to fight infection and to eliminate the optimum temperature of microorganism reproduction.  If you eat dirt, your white blood cells will attack it.  However, that usually does the job, so you don't get a fever or "get sick" per se.  Someone with a crappy immune system would need all the help they could get to fight a foreign object, so she is more likely to "get sick" with a fever, stuffed sinuses and the like.  Hope that makes sense.

Quarians developed an overprotective reaction to foreign objects though, because of the absence of insects on their planet, and basically having that floral matter piggyback on them. Otherwise you are a 100% right about the fevers and such, though the tissue digestion would still result in the toxin affecting primarily her blood vessels and sending her body into Anaphylactic shock as Mordin suggested.

[Angelraid]

1490 wrote...

Jake71887 wrote...

Goat_Shepard wrote...

1490 wrote...
 Tali couldn't even get sick from a lot of bacteria Shepard had because they eat byproducts of human metabolism, and humans and quarians eat different foods.  Human viruses would never make her sick because she doesn't have the right type of DNA for them to latch onto.  Her most likely chance of getting sick would be from a dextro-DNA bacteria that someone like Garrus could have brought aboard the ship, but he's not walking around in Shep's room, so that minimizes the chances greatly.

Also, she and Mordin talk about having allergic reactions to different types of tissue, but you get allergies because you have an overactive immune system: she has a sh*tty immune system, so an allergic reaction is much, much less likely than getting a standard infection.

In conclusion, it would be way safer for Tali to do it with Shep than with a male Quarian.

Interesting read. Especially that last sentence. So why did Tali say "maybe I get a fever, maybe I'm out for a week, maybe it kills me"? She didn't have the immuno boosters but would it be THAT bad?

Quarian bodies evolved to overreact to any foreign objects, that's the fever, and depending on what and how much of those objects that enter in her system, would determine the severity

That's simply the body's normal immune response to a foreign object.  A fever is a tool the body  uses to increase metabolism to fight infection and to eliminate the optimum temperature of microorganism reproduction.  If you eat dirt, your white blood cells will attack it.  However, that usually does the job, so you don't get a fever or "get sick" per se.  Someone with a crappy immune system would need all the help they could get to fight a foreign object, so she is more likely to "get sick" with a fever, stuffed sinuses and the like.  Hope that makes sense.

She actually calls it an allergic reaction witch is when your immune system overreacts to a foreign substance. (which is not entirely how its explained in ME1 but) essentially the danger is that if they are exposed to too many things at once it could cuase thier own bodies to go haywire and kill themsleves. Like Anaphalactic shock.

[Lareit]

MMA7FF wrote...

Lareit are you seriously suggesting removing 6 characters from the game......

To encourage better fleshing out of those remaining, absolutely.

[cutthecameras]

Collider wrote...

1490 wrote...
I'll be the devil's advocate here and say that because of the sheltered upbringing, she is more likely to be bisexual.  Most of us are straight because we've been raised to follow certain gender roles, like wearing certain types of clothes and liking certain activities.  By the same standard, we're tought what type of people we're supposed to be attracted to.  In the Flotilla, gender lines are blurred: people all wear the same type of suits, they all perform the same jobs and participate in the same activities.  They aren't likely tought to be masculine or feminine because they need to fill a variety of roles.  Tali is even more likely to be like this because her parents were less involved in her upbringing (at least we know her father was). 

I REALLY dislike this discussion, because it is using stereotypes to sexuality. Basically, what it amounts to is you using preconceived streotypes and conceptions to reason that a person is more likely to be bisexual. That's rather closeminded of you. I'm sure lesbians and bisexual women would be very offended if you tried to suggest that they were lesbian or bisexual because of a troubled childhood, instead of it just being a minor part of their personaltiy.

I gotta admit I didn't expect to hear that from you but you're right.

Why on earth are you saying things like "Tali isn't bi" then? You have no evidence to support it outside of speculation, as others have said. I can speculate she is gay and I will. Same as you will likely continue speculating that she is straight. Makes absolutely no sense that this is even an issue.

As a lesbian I find that I am very wary of 'defaulting' anyone's sexuality to straight or gay, I simply don't assume. It's hard not to act wishful when you actually like someone though.

[Angelraid]

beat me jake

[1490]

Lareit wrote...

1490 wrote...



I'll be the devil's advocate here and say that because of the sheltered upbringing, she is more likely to be bisexual.  Most of us are straight because we've been raised to follow certain gender roles, like wearing certain types of clothes and liking certain activities.  By the same standard, we're tought what type of people we're supposed to be attracted to.  In the Flotilla, gender lines are blurred: people all wear the same type of suits, they all perform the same jobs and participate in the same activities.  They aren't likely tought to be masculine or feminine because they need to fill a variety of roles.  Tali is even more likely to be like this because her parents were less involved in her upbringing (at least we know her father was). 

1. We know she admired her father.
2. It's not a matter of being restricted by principle so much as by act. She has no more experiance having sex with guys then she does girls.
3. She WAS raised to believe in a specific gender pairing.  Single child family units are the rule on the flotilla. They are necessary to encourage the population stability of the flotilla.


I'm not saying she can't be Bi or Lesbian(we know she's not that). But she is far less likely then Jack who we know is Bi. Or miranda who has a strong enough daddy issue to be put off to being with guys forever.

Sure, they obviously still have gender roles on the Flotilla, so she would definitely be more likely to be straight than bi or gay.  However, I think because of the mixing of gender roles at some level, her chances of being a different sexual orientation would be more likely than say with how you or I were raised.

[Goat_Shepard]

Jake71887 wrote...
Hence the many options for letting her down... And my constant joking about letting Tali swallow, or femsheps having a tasty treat. 

But it's not the Renegade option, it's the Neutral option...Now THAT doesn't make sense cuz that's a toal Renegade action.

[Collider]

1490 wrote...
That's not what I was trying to imply at all.  There are very few parents who completely eliminate gender roles from raising their children, but most do not.  FOr instance, most parents dress their sons in boys' clothing not girls' clothing, and they do not buy them dolls or makeup to play with.  That is gender role construction and it exists in most human societies.  I by no means meant to imply that it is right to do this, but it is how most people raise their children.

Here's the problem. Not only are you using stereotypes in describing what makes people of a certain sexuality, you are also talking about a fictional society of which we have no actual research as it is a real society and you have studied sexuality and sociology. Whether Tali is more or less likely to be bisexual is all opinion, bias, and stereotype. Again, try telling lesbians and bisexual women that they are lesbian or bisexual because their parents did not buy them dolls

Modifié par Collider, 04 mars 2010 - 10:31 .

[cannedcream]

I agree. One of the things that makes Tali's romance work so well is that it does occur in part 2. The romance is about a quiet shy girl who for years has had a huge crush on her hero, who never seem notice her. And when you as Shepard realize this you litterally have known her for years. I have known Tali for two years of my life too, ever since ME1. This makes me wonder if there is any difference in opinion on Tali's romance between those who did play ME1 and those who only played ME2.

Good point. As a player, you really have known Tali for two years.
I can't speak for anyone but me, but I know that, if I had not played ME1, then I wouldn't have nearly the same amount of love I have for Tali. It was having that strong emotional base in the first game that made for such a great expereience finally getting to be with her in the second.
This is why I deeply wish it would continue on into the third. 'Getting the girl' is never the end of it. There's still so much more that can be done with that relationship (even more so when it comes with a character who has become so strong intergrated into the main story line as Tali)

[Jake71887]

Goat_Shepard wrote...

Jake71887 wrote...
Hence the many options for letting her down... And my constant joking about letting Tali swallow, or femsheps having a tasty treat. 

But it's not the Renegade option, it's the Neutral option...Now THAT doesn't make sense cuz that's a toal Renegade action.

I thought there were three options...

One was saying you wanted to go through with it, one to say you couldn't because of her condition, and yet another because you found one...

The condition one I believe was the renegade and made her kinda angry for having led her on.

[1490]

cutthecameras wrote...

Collider wrote...

1490 wrote...
I'll be the devil's advocate here and say that because of the sheltered upbringing, she is more likely to be bisexual.  Most of us are straight because we've been raised to follow certain gender roles, like wearing certain types of clothes and liking certain activities.  By the same standard, we're tought what type of people we're supposed to be attracted to.  In the Flotilla, gender lines are blurred: people all wear the same type of suits, they all perform the same jobs and participate in the same activities.  They aren't likely tought to be masculine or feminine because they need to fill a variety of roles.  Tali is even more likely to be like this because her parents were less involved in her upbringing (at least we know her father was). 

I REALLY dislike this discussion, because it is using stereotypes to sexuality. Basically, what it amounts to is you using preconceived streotypes and conceptions to reason that a person is more likely to be bisexual. That's rather closeminded of you. I'm sure lesbians and bisexual women would be very offended if you tried to suggest that they were lesbian or bisexual because of a troubled childhood, instead of it just being a minor part of their personaltiy.

I gotta admit I didn't expect to hear that from you but you're right.

Why on earth are you saying things like "Tali isn't bi" then? You have no evidence to support it outside of speculation, as others have said. I can speculate she is gay and I will. Same as you will likely continue speculating that she is straight. Makes absolutely no sense that this is even an issue.

As a lesbian I find that I am very wary of 'defaulting' anyone's sexuality to straight or gay, I simply don't assume. It's hard not to act wishful when you actually like someone though.

I'm sorry if it came across like I was trying to label the reasons people are gay or straight. All I was trying to point out was that what we perceive as masculine or feminine in a large part is determined by our society's view of this and how we are raised as children.  As for what "makes" a person gay or straight, I don't think there's any way to tell.  However, in societies that have a greater tolerance toward the expansion of gender roles and towards homosexuality, there are more people who are openly gay or acknowledge same-sex attractions.

[madisk]

Collider wrote...

1490 wrote...
I'll be the devil's advocate here and say that because of the sheltered upbringing, she is more likely to be bisexual.  Most of us are straight because we've been raised to follow certain gender roles, like wearing certain types of clothes and liking certain activities.  By the same standard, we're tought what type of people we're supposed to be attracted to.  In the Flotilla, gender lines are blurred: people all wear the same type of suits, they all perform the same jobs and participate in the same activities.  They aren't likely tought to be masculine or feminine because they need to fill a variety of roles.  Tali is even more likely to be like this because her parents were less involved in her upbringing (at least we know her father was). 

I REALLY dislike this discussion, because it is using stereotypes to sexuality. Basically, what it amounts to is you using preconceived streotypes and conceptions to reason that a person is more likely to be bisexual. That's rather closeminded of you. I'm sure lesbians and bisexual women would be very offended if you tried to suggest that they were lesbian or bisexual because of a troubled childhood, instead of it just being a minor part of their personaltiy.

Stereotypes exist for a reason.

We're all partly conditioned by our upbringing. Tali's an intelligent individual, with intelligence usually comes open-mindedness and a willing to explore the unknown. I can't find a convincing reason why to think she couldn't develop romantic feelings towards a female.

I'm straight but I can't say I've never been bi-curious. It's partly due to my personality but I'm confident that it's largely due to my upbringing.

Anyway, what matters is that ME is a role-playing game and as long as there could be a plausible explanation for a character to have bisexual tendencies then Bioware should include it. Nothing in ME1 or ME2 absolutely rules out that Tali would have bisexual tendencies.

[Jake71887]

1490 wrote...


I'm sorry if it came across like I was trying to label the reasons people are gay or straight. All I was trying to point out was that what we perceive as masculine or feminine in a large part is determined by our society's view of this and how we are raised as children.  As for what "makes" a person gay or straight, I don't think there's any way to tell.  However, in societies that have a greater tolerance toward the expansion of gender roles and towards homosexuality, there are more people who are openly gay or acknowledge same-sex attractions.

Ancient Greece and Rome come to mind...

[Sleepicub09]

so what are all you quarians up 2

[Angelraid]

Jake71887 wrote...

Goat_Shepard wrote...

Jake71887 wrote...
Hence the many options for letting her down... And my constant joking about letting Tali swallow, or femsheps having a tasty treat. 

But it's not the Renegade option, it's the Neutral option...Now THAT doesn't make sense cuz that's a toal Renegade action.

I thought there were three options...

One was saying you wanted to go through with it, one to say you couldn't because of her condition, and yet another because you found one...

The condition one I believe was the renegade and made her kinda angry for having led her on.

the paragon position is end cuase you dont wanna risk it - and she understands
the middle is go ahead
and the renagade is end cuase you don't wanna jeapardize the mission - and she will be pissed at you.

[Goat_Shepard]

Jake71887 wrote...

Goat_Shepard wrote...

Jake71887 wrote...
Hence the many options for letting her down... And my constant joking about letting Tali swallow, or femsheps having a tasty treat. 

But it's not the Renegade option, it's the Neutral option...Now THAT doesn't make sense cuz that's a toal Renegade action.

I thought there were three options...

One was saying you wanted to go through with it, one to say you couldn't because of her condition, and yet another because you found one...

The condition one I believe was the renegade and made her kinda angry for having led her on.

Paragon is "No it's dangerous" Neutral is "Only if it's safe" Renegade is "No the Mission is too important". Not sure about the "leading her on" unless you're talking about turning her down at the Pounce scene which is painful to imagine 

[Lareit]

cutthecameras wrote...


Why on earth are you saying things like "Tali isn't bi" then? You have no evidence to support it outside of speculation, as others have said. I can speculate she is gay and I will. Same as you will likely continue speculating that she is straight. Makes absolutely no sense that this is even an issue.

As a lesbian I find that I am very wary of 'defaulting' anyone's sexuality to straight or gay, I simply don't assume. It's hard not to act wishful when you actually like someone though.

You can't spectulate that she is gay. She sleeps with Manshep, she is obviously Hetero or Bi.

You don't love, and sleep with a guy, if you're just lesbian.

There is no speculating.

[Jake71887]

Goat_Shepard wrote...

Jake71887 wrote...

Goat_Shepard wrote...

Jake71887 wrote...
Hence the many options for letting her down... And my constant joking about letting Tali swallow, or femsheps having a tasty treat. 

But it's not the Renegade option, it's the Neutral option...Now THAT doesn't make sense cuz that's a toal Renegade action.

I thought there were three options...

One was saying you wanted to go through with it, one to say you couldn't because of her condition, and yet another because you found one...

The condition one I believe was the renegade and made her kinda angry for having led her on.

Paragon is "No it's dangerous" Neutral is "Only if it's safe" Renegade is "No the Mission is too important". Not sure about the "leading her on" unless you're talking about turning her down at the Pounce scene which is painful to imagine 

I don't know, I only saw it in the dialogue compilation... Possible I got them mixed up at one point 

[Angelraid]

are we still talking about the les tali thing, christ lol

[Collider]

cutthecameras wrote...
I gotta admit I didn't expect to hear that from you but you're right.

To clarify, I have nothing against bisexuals or homosexuals. I am an outlier in my entire family who think that homosexuality is the spawn of the devil.

Why on earth are you saying things like "Tali isn't bi" then? You have no evidence to support it outside of speculation, as others have said. I can speculate she is gay and I will. Same as you will likely continue speculating that she is straight. Makes absolutely no sense that this is even an issue.

I am saying that Tali is not bisexual in a practical sense, because she cannot be romanced as female shepard. I am not saying that she is bisexual in a literal, infallible sense, because that is basically impossible to say for certain, for ALL characters (who are straight romances) It is axiomatic that we do not know the exact details of every characters sexuality. So in that same way, I dislike people saying that Tali is outright, 100% bisexual, when at most we have ambiguous information. You can also put it into context of real life people, if people were assuming you were of a sexuality or sexual attraction that you were not, you may find offense or annoyment from it.