137512 réponses à ce sujet

[Gerudan]

Pauravi wrote...


But the police woman would not be innocent, since she is attempting to stop her from pursuing a dangerous criminal.

The policewoman is following the law herself, so she would be innocent and Samara herself could get killed in the fight. 

As I already said: Samara herself thinks, that the whole situation is somewhat pointless, but she would follow the code nonetheless. 

[danteshepard]

Geth Knight wrote...

knight5923 wrote...
Know who's more fun than evil Liara?............Tali:wub:

What about "evil" Tali?

I would pay a lot of money to see a renegade tali. What do you guys think that would look like? I think she'd be less "we shouldn't do this shepard" and more. "I want you but let me figure out how to do it safely"

[gkillerrin]

Darth Cheesecake wrote...

knight5923 wrote...

Darth Cheesecake wrote...

Somebody1003 wrote...

Darth Cheesecake wrote...

Somebody1003 wrote...

Well Im out for the night cya later people.

Wait! you didn't say whether you would pick new "evil" Liara or try to help her get "good"
"

Good.

bah your no fun evil Liara sounds very...fun.

Know who's more fun than evil Liara?







............Tali:wub:

What would a "evil" Tali be like?

Like jack, but slightly more tamed, and with none-to-hardly any tatoos

Modifié par gkillerrin, 14 mars 2010 - 12:17 .

[sergio71785]

knight5923 wrote...
Tali's Tali. End of story:wub:

There are many Talis!



Or maybe there's just one, and she's wearing "mood" fabric/visor 

Modifié par sergio71785, 14 mars 2010 - 12:17 .

[The_KFD_Case]

Gerudan wrote...

TGFKAMAdmaX wrote...

I said she could construe it as such...and once again we cant discuss this further because since we are not actually members of the code we cannot hope to make sense of everything they do

Well, I can perfectly say, that I don't like it, when people live after codes or rules (religious or otherwise) and don't interpret situations in their lives freely. 

Which opens up to this question: Aren't we all in some way, shape or form following a "code" of sorts? Your "code" might be described by a desire to think for oneself before acting, yet once you come to accept whatever your own "code" states as comfortable and correct how much do you think about it when executing it? Do you think about it every single time or only on some occasions? If you aren't thinking about it every single time are you then not guilty of the same thing you are criticizing Samara of? And even if you are thinking about it every single time is that not also akin to following a code? Besides, who is to say that Samara doesn't think about her actions? It would seem logical that she has to in order to ascertain whether or not her intended action is in agreement with the code. That you do not agree with her code is another matter.

[Gerudan]

danteshepard wrote...

I'm not argueing one way or the other. I'm just saying that that's interesting to me for some reason.

I'm not really arguing either...well at least I try not to, but there are a lot of holes in the codex, universe and story of ME, as in every fiction. 

[Terrorfex]

Geth Hunter Alpha wrote...

Terrorfex wrote...

The_KFD_Case wrote...

Geth Hunter Alpha wrote...

The_KFD_Case wrote...

Geth Hunter Alpha wrote...

Well Samara is sorta the opposite of that. Letting the lack of emotion to allow her to do things that most wouldnt normally consider an act of integrity. Like murdering a good cop for doing her job.

If you engage Samara in conversation she states that the code does not exist for moral enlightenment but as a means of punishing the wicked. She isn't oblivious to the criticism her code faces at the hands of moralistic dissenters yet she remains unapologetic for carrying out the very black-or-white teachings of the code. It is impressive in one regard while disturbing in another, IMO. Again though, if you speak to her at length it isn't that she doesn't have emotions nor is incapable of friendly discussions; her discipline does not remove these parts of her persona, it simply helps her override them. That is different from being devoid of understanding and knowing what compassion is for example, even if the physical end results may amount to much the same thing.

To punish the wicked yes. But the code dictates the same punishment no matter what the crime. death. furthermore the crux the becomes what is wickedness. Everyone is guilty to some extent. which would lead to universal genocide. Even the justicars themselves are not above reproach yet they do not commit suicide for thier own actions. which is hypocracy. another turn off.

As Samara points out the Asari justicars are similar to the Council Spectres, though Shepard is correct in pointing out that the Spectres (at least in theory) have some oversight from the Council itself. As with the Spectres so too do I think it is with the justicars: While the justicars are obligated to punish the wicked there may still be some leeway as to which of the wicked they go after first and foremost. Example: Samara on Omega comments on the rampant abuses on Omega, yet she does not stray from her oath to Shepard's mission. Also, before swearing the oath to Shepard, she once had an encounter with a Turian Spectre - she chose to let him escape because he deliberately endangered the lives of many innocents. She chose to save them instead of killing him indicating that she is not without the ability to think for herself even while adhering to the code. If that is the case for her then perhaps some of the other justicars act similarly, just as different Spectres act differently too (i.e. some arrest criminals while others simply kill them where they stand)?

As for justicars not being above reproach I concur. What evidence do we have that if any justicars have gone rogue that they haven't committed suicide? Perhaps some have, perhaps some haven't. If some haven't I strongly suspect that the code would compel other justicars to hunt their former colleague down. We simply do not have enough detailed information about all things justicar to ascertain these things with empirical confidence.

THE FOLLOWING IS A SERIOUS POST

The Justicar system is by definition bent to self-policing, albeit imperfectly. When anything approaching a theological or absolutist authoritiarian order is defined by a set of inflexible documents and/or narrow intepretation of conduct and gives rise to a "rogue" element, those elements are invariably suppressed, hunted down or challenged by the majority of the individuals produced by that same system.

The Justicars do not need oversight in the same way as C-Sec needs it - The near total majority of Justicars who emerge from their order will be compelled to remove rogue Justicars by their code which leaves no room for intepretation in such matters. The difference between C-Sec, and even the Spectres and the Justicar order being of course that the latter has supreme and total authority to act whereas even Spectres do not.

To clarify in my post I wasn't talking about rogue justicars that need to be hunted down I was talking about the fact that even normal justicars have done things in the past that would likely contradict the code. For example. Asari are often mercs in thier maiden stage - then something happens that makes them decide to become a justicar (like what happened to Samara) Now the code would compel them to kill a person who does something wicked. And they know that they have, yet they dont kill themselves. Selective Justice Much. No one is above flaw, everyone no matter how noble or good has made mistakes and has wickedness inside them. The only way the code could overcome this is if justicars where trained from birth thus thier actions could be excused as under the code but thier not so

THE FOLLOWING IS A SERIOUS POST

There's nothing about the Justicar code that assumes retrospective punishment. There are plenty of real-world examples where a person's history can be perfectly, legally, "masked". The classic example would be the French Foreign Legion, which even allows those to enlist with "false" names.

There's plenty of real-world examples of individuals who led questionable lives until dedicating themselves to a cause or goal entirely noble and proper. There's no reason to assume the Asari Justicar Code is retrospective; that'd be self-defeating - it would probably lead to the order dying out.

To command the power and authority of a Justicar would require a lot of real-world experience before one even began the path. To  know what is good and proper, one must know what is not. I would posit that a hypothetical Justicar who had never done a questionable thing, never made a true error of judgement or act would be a less capable Justicar.

[knight5923]

danteshepard wrote...

Geth Knight wrote...

knight5923 wrote...
Know who's more fun than evil Liara?............Tali:wub:

What about "evil" Tali?

I would pay a lot of money to see a renegade tali. What do you guys think that would look like? I think she'd be less "we shouldn't do this shepard" and more. "I want you but let me figure out how to do it safely"

............ I don't remember her say "we shouldn't do this shepard". I do, though, remember her saying "I have lots of motivation to figure something out:wub:"

[Angelraid]

Geth Knight wrote...

How exactly did the Samara discussion get started? And can we start sniping quotes?

I think the progresssion was something like

Liking Liara more than tali

Liking Asari

Liking Samara more than Liara

Not liking Samara cuase of code

vurtues and falacies of said code

[danteshepard]

knight5923 wrote...

danteshepard wrote...

Geth Knight wrote...

knight5923 wrote...
Know who's more fun than evil Liara?............Tali:wub:

What about "evil" Tali?

I would pay a lot of money to see a renegade tali. What do you guys think that would look like? I think she'd be less "we shouldn't do this shepard" and more. "I want you but let me figure out how to do it safely"

............ I don't remember her say "we shouldn't do this shepard". I do, though, remember her saying "I have lots of motivation to figure something out:wub:"

"We have to think of other people always"-tali

My version of a renegade tali would be less worried about other people and more indulgent in her own wants and desires.

[alickar]

im back again

[Pauravi]

Gerudan wrote...

The policewoman is following the law herself, so she would be innocent and Samara herself could get killed in the fight.

The police woman isn't following the law, she is following her superior's orders.  I'm willing to bet that there is no law on Illium that requires Justicars to be locked up, it wouldn't make any sense.

As I already said: Samara herself thinks, that the whole situation is somewhat pointless, but she would follow the code nonetheless.

She never once calls it pointless.  She does what she does not only for the sake of the Code but because she is pursuing Morinth.  It most definitely has a point.

[knight5923]

OOO, food's here.
Keelah Se'lai all!

[danteshepard]

alickar wrote...

im back again

 hello whelp. we're having two main discussions vitures of justicar code and what a renegade tali would be like.

[gkillerrin]

alickar wrote...

im back again

welcome back alickar

Modifié par gkillerrin, 14 mars 2010 - 12:21 .

[Gerudan]

The_KFD_Case wrote...

Which opens up to this question: Aren't we all in some way, shape or form following a "code" of sorts? Your "code" might be described by a desire to think for oneself before acting, yet once you come to accept whatever your own "code" states as comfortable and correct how much do you think about it when executing it? Do you think about it every single time or only on some occasions? If you aren't thinking about it every single time are you then not guilty of the same thing you are criticizing Samara of? And even if you are thinking about it every single time is that not also akin to following a code? Besides, who is to say that Samara doesn't think about her actions? It would seem logical that she has to in order to ascertain whether or not her intended action is in agreement with the code. That you do not agree with her code is another matter.

Of course she thinks about her actions, but she follows her code even when she doesn't agree with it and thinks that it is wrong. 
Like the situation where Shep comes into play.

That is basically what I mean: There are situations, in which she doesn't do what she thinks would normally be right, but what the code compels her to do and I don't like that in people, specially when they are good people like Samara. 

[danteshepard]

Darth Cheesecake wrote...

alickar wrote...

im back again

alickar you got to get in on this we are talking about what "evil" Tali would be like.

I'm actually rather interesting in what KFD has to say about the topic. What would your renegade tali look like?

[Felipe 058]

sergio71785 wrote...

knight5923 wrote...
Tali's Tali. End of story:wub:

There are many Talis!



Or maybe there's just one, and she's wearing "mood" fabric/visor 

And they have a plan.

[gkillerrin]

Darth Cheesecake wrote...

danteshepard wrote...

Geth Knight wrote...

knight5923 wrote...
Know who's more fun than evil Liara?............Tali:wub:

What about "evil" Tali?

I would pay a lot of money to see a renegade tali. What do you guys think that would look like? I think she'd be less "we shouldn't do this shepard" and more. "I want you but let me figure out how to do it safely"

She'd probably wear black...just think about it
Tali: So Miranda I hear your interested in Shepard?
Miranda: Well yes I a-argh
Tali: (puts away shotgun) not anymore.
Tali:ahem OH SHEPARD SOMETHING TERRIBLE HAPPENED MIRANDA COMMITED SUICIDE WITH MY SHOTGUN!!

I think Evil Tali would be Like jack, but slightly more tamed, and with none-to-hardly any tatoos...
ohh and with a pinch of in your face attitude taken off

Modifié par gkillerrin, 14 mars 2010 - 12:25 .

[The_KFD_Case]

Geth Hunter Alpha wrote...

Pauravi wrote...

<snip>

"Wicked" is tightly defined by the Code itself.  It may not agree with what you think is wicked, but the Code is black and white, as Samara says.  This is not an ambiguous issue.  By definition the Justicars cannot be wicked if they follow the Code, thus there is no hypocrisy.

All the references to punishment in the game are death so thats where I draw my conclusion.

As to the issue of what is wickedness that is basically what I was saying. But to illistrate. If killing someone is wicked - and the punishment is to kill them - then you have killed someone - for which the punishment is death. By following the code you essentially break the code, but its ok cuase you were following the code. Hypocracy.

You fail to look at the motivation behind the act. Killing in self-defence is not murder though it is killing. Killing for selfish reasons is generally viewed as murder. By surgically killing those whom would indiscriminately kill others you can present a strong case that you are acting in the greater interest of others even though you are physically committing similar acts as those individuals whom you are punishing.

[Gerudan]

Pauravi wrote...

She never once calls it pointless.  She does what she does not only for the sake of the Code but because she is pursuing Morinth.  It most definitely has a point.

Of course she implicitly says it. She even admits that she could get killed.  

The situation and her thoughts are quite clear. 

[Geth Knight]

Darth Cheesecake wrote...

danteshepard wrote...

Geth Knight wrote...

knight5923 wrote...
Know who's more fun than evil Liara?............Tali:wub:

What about "evil" Tali?

I would pay a lot of money to see a renegade tali. What do you guys think that would look like? I think she'd be less "we shouldn't do this shepard" and more. "I want you but let me figure out how to do it safely"

She'd probably wear black...just think about it
Tali: So Miranda I hear your interested in Shepard?
Miranda: Well yes I a-argh
Tali: (puts away shotgun) not anymore.
Tali:ahem OH SHEPARD SOMETHING TERRIBLE HAPPENED MIRANDA COMMITED SUICIDE WITH MY SHOTGUN!!

I'd think Tali would just knock out Miranda first, tie her up on her bed, and then threaten her with a shotgon to her neck.

[alickar]

danteshepard wrote...

alickar wrote...

im back again

 hello whelp. we're having two main discussions vitures of justicar code and what a renegade tali would be like.

hmm i think renegade tali would have all black cloths and think more of herself than others