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[Terrorfex]

The_KFD_Case wrote...

Geth Hunter Alpha wrote...

Pauravi wrote...



"Wicked" is tightly defined by the Code itself.  It may not agree with what you think is wicked, but the Code is black and white, as Samara says.  This is not an ambiguous issue.  By definition the Justicars cannot be wicked if they follow the Code, thus there is no hypocrisy.

All the references to punishment in the game are death so thats where I draw my conclusion.

As to the issue of what is wickedness that is basically what I was saying. But to illistrate. If killing someone is wicked - and the punishment is to kill them - then you have killed someone - for which the punishment is death. By following the code you essentially break the code, but its ok cuase you were following the code. Hypocracy.

You fail to look at the motivation behind the act. Killing in self-defence is not murder though it is killing. Killing for selfish reasons is generally viewed as murder. By surgically killing those whom would indiscriminately kill others you can present a strong case that you are acting in the greater interest of others even though you are physically committing similar acts as those individuals whom you are punishing.

Ultimately, (especially in the Mass Effect universe but no less so in the real world) force is the ultimate law from which all other law is derived.

[gkillerrin]

alickar wrote...

danteshepard wrote...

alickar wrote...

im back again

 hello whelp. we're having two main discussions vitures of justicar code and what a renegade tali would be like.

hmm i think renegade tali would have all black cloths and think more of herself than others

... soo Golo(ish) then

Modifié par gkillerrin, 14 mars 2010 - 12:28 .

[The_KFD_Case]

Gerudan wrote...

Pauravi wrote...

She cannot change the law as she sees fit.  She is an agent of the law.  It is not her place to make moral judgments about when the law should be applied.  If she does, she is no longer an agent of the law.

Don't make me post the Judge Dredd link again. 

Samara would break another law by killing the policewoman, I guess and killing someone (that maya be able to do a lot of good in the future, since the policewoman seems to be a decent person), only for a slim chance to catch up with another criminal is not particular smart. But Samara can't even react flexible, she just have to follow a code, without thinking for herself and that is something I don't like, alright? 

You don't have to agree with me on that, it is simply my personal thinking about those thinks (that also cause a lot of problems in the real world). 

Ah hah! But Samara would not be breaking her code by doing that. So then it becomes a matter of which law/code (or school of thought) you subscribe to. Which in terms of real politik boils down to who has power and the will to use it at the end of the day (and whom, if anyone, has the ability and will to resist it successfully or otherwise).

[Angelraid]

Terrorfex wrote...

Geth Hunter Alpha wrote...

Terrorfex wrote...



THE FOLLOWING IS A SERIOUS POST

The Justicar system is by definition bent to self-policing, albeit imperfectly. When anything approaching a theological or absolutist authoritiarian order is defined by a set of inflexible documents and/or narrow intepretation of conduct and gives rise to a "rogue" element, those elements are invariably suppressed, hunted down or challenged by the majority of the individuals produced by that same system.

The Justicars do not need oversight in the same way as C-Sec needs it - The near total majority of Justicars who emerge from their order will be compelled to remove rogue Justicars by their code which leaves no room for intepretation in such matters. The difference between C-Sec, and even the Spectres and the Justicar order being of course that the latter has supreme and total authority to act whereas even Spectres do not.

To clarify in my post I wasn't talking about rogue justicars that need to be hunted down I was talking about the fact that even normal justicars have done things in the past that would likely contradict the code. For example. Asari are often mercs in thier maiden stage - then something happens that makes them decide to become a justicar (like what happened to Samara) Now the code would compel them to kill a person who does something wicked. And they know that they have, yet they dont kill themselves. Selective Justice Much. No one is above flaw, everyone no matter how noble or good has made mistakes and has wickedness inside them. The only way the code could overcome this is if justicars where trained from birth thus thier actions could be excused as under the code but thier not so

THE FOLLOWING IS A SERIOUS POST

There's nothing about the Justicar code that assumes retrospective punishment. There are plenty of real-world examples where a person's history can be perfectly, legally, "masked". The classic example would be the French Foreign Legion, which even allows those to enlist with "false" names.

There's plenty of real-world examples of individuals who led questionable lives until dedicating themselves to a cause or goal entirely noble and proper. There's no reason to assume the Asari Justicar Code is retrospective; that'd be self-defeating - it would probably lead to the order dying out.

To command the power and authority of a Justicar would require a lot of real-world experience before one even began the path. To  know what is good and proper, one must know what is not. I would posit that a hypothetical Justicar who had never done a questionable thing, never made a true error of judgement or act would be a less capable Justicar.

Well "IF" that where true it would just cuase another hypocracy. For if the code is designed to punish the wicked but allows for not punishing the wickedness that one has done in the past then you are not punishing the wicked.

Furthermore such a defense would present itself as yes I murdered that man but I'm not murdering right now. That was the past. Then any punishment thereto doled out would be retroactive by definition and thus would revert to the old state of hypocracy

And Finally All of what that last exchange is tottally irrelevent becuase ALL punishment is retroactive by the very meaning of the word. You can not punish someone for a crime unless that crime has already been committed.

[Gerudan]

The_KFD_Case wrote...

Ah hah! But Samara would not be breaking her code by doing that. So then it becomes a matter of which law/code (or school of thought) you subscribe to. Which in terms of real politik boils down to who has power and the will to use it at the end of the day (and whom, if anyone, has the ability and will to resist it successfully or otherwise).

By doing what? 

And no, we don't follow a strict code (well I sure don't) or have you written down guidelines, how you will always react in certain situations? 

[Angelraid]

The_KFD_Case wrote...

Geth Hunter Alpha wrote...

Pauravi wrote...



"Wicked" is tightly defined by the Code itself.  It may not agree with what you think is wicked, but the Code is black and white, as Samara says.  This is not an ambiguous issue.  By definition the Justicars cannot be wicked if they follow the Code, thus there is no hypocrisy.

All the references to punishment in the game are death so thats where I draw my conclusion.

As to the issue of what is wickedness that is basically what I was saying. But to illistrate. If killing someone is wicked - and the punishment is to kill them - then you have killed someone - for which the punishment is death. By following the code you essentially break the code, but its ok cuase you were following the code. Hypocracy.

You fail to look at the motivation behind the act. Killing in self-defence is not murder though it is killing. Killing for selfish reasons is generally viewed as murder. By surgically killing those whom would indiscriminately kill others you can present a strong case that you are acting in the greater interest of others even though you are physically committing similar acts as those individuals whom you are punishing.

If that were the case, but its not - as Samara herself states the Code is Black and White there is no gray. Samara does not wish to know the motivations of the offendee all that matters is the action occurred.

[gkillerrin]

SNIP...

Since when was this the Samara thread... lets get back on topic please...
also SNIP YOUR POSTS

[alickar]

Geth Hunter Alpha wrote...

Terrorfex wrote...

Geth Hunter Alpha wrote...

Terrorfex wrote...



THE FOLLOWING IS A SERIOUS POST

The Justicar system is by definition bent to self-policing, albeit imperfectly. When anything approaching a theological or absolutist authoritiarian order is defined by a set of inflexible documents and/or narrow intepretation of conduct and gives rise to a "rogue" element, those elements are invariably suppressed, hunted down or challenged by the majority of the individuals produced by that same system.

The Justicars do not need oversight in the same way as C-Sec needs it - The near total majority of Justicars who emerge from their order will be compelled to remove rogue Justicars by their code which leaves no room for intepretation in such matters. The difference between C-Sec, and even the Spectres and the Justicar order being of course that the latter has supreme and total authority to act whereas even Spectres do not.

To clarify in my post I wasn't talking about rogue justicars that need to be hunted down I was talking about the fact that even normal justicars have done things in the past that would likely contradict the code. For example. Asari are often mercs in thier maiden stage - then something happens that makes them decide to become a justicar (like what happened to Samara) Now the code would compel them to kill a person who does something wicked. And they know that they have, yet they dont kill themselves. Selective Justice Much. No one is above flaw, everyone no matter how noble or good has made mistakes and has wickedness inside them. The only way the code could overcome this is if justicars where trained from birth thus thier actions could be excused as under the code but thier not so

THE FOLLOWING IS A SERIOUS POST

There's nothing about the Justicar code that assumes retrospective punishment. There are plenty of real-world examples where a person's history can be perfectly, legally, "masked". The classic example would be the French Foreign Legion, which even allows those to enlist with "false" names.

There's plenty of real-world examples of individuals who led questionable lives until dedicating themselves to a cause or goal entirely noble and proper. There's no reason to assume the Asari Justicar Code is retrospective; that'd be self-defeating - it would probably lead to the order dying out.

To command the power and authority of a Justicar would require a lot of real-world experience before one even began the path. To  know what is good and proper, one must know what is not. I would posit that a hypothetical Justicar who had never done a questionable thing, never made a true error of judgement or act would be a less capable Justicar.

Well "IF" that where true it would just cuase another hypocracy. For if the code is designed to punish the wicked but allows for not punishing the wickedness that one has done in the past then you are not punishing the wicked.

Furthermore such a defense would present itself as yes I murdered that man but I'm not murdering right now. That was the past. Then any punishment thereto doled out would be retroactive by definition and thus would revert to the old state of hypocracy

And Finally All of what that last exchange is tottally irrelevent becuase ALL punishment is retroactive by the very meaning of the word. You can not punish someone for a crime unless that crime has already been committed.

why r we talking about this this  is a tali thread

[danteshepard]

alickar wrote...

why r we talking about this this  is a tali thread

Much as I hate to say it, the whelp is right. Let's talk about tali.

[Angelraid]

alickar wrote...

Geth Hunter Alpha wrote...

Terrorfex wrote...

Geth Hunter Alpha wrote...

Terrorfex wrote...



THE FOLLOWING IS A SERIOUS POST

The Justicar system is by definition bent to self-policing, albeit imperfectly. When anything approaching a theological or absolutist authoritiarian order is defined by a set of inflexible documents and/or narrow intepretation of conduct and gives rise to a "rogue" element, those elements are invariably suppressed, hunted down or challenged by the majority of the individuals produced by that same system.

The Justicars do not need oversight in the same way as C-Sec needs it - The near total majority of Justicars who emerge from their order will be compelled to remove rogue Justicars by their code which leaves no room for intepretation in such matters. The difference between C-Sec, and even the Spectres and the Justicar order being of course that the latter has supreme and total authority to act whereas even Spectres do not.

To clarify in my post I wasn't talking about rogue justicars that need to be hunted down I was talking about the fact that even normal justicars have done things in the past that would likely contradict the code. For example. Asari are often mercs in thier maiden stage - then something happens that makes them decide to become a justicar (like what happened to Samara) Now the code would compel them to kill a person who does something wicked. And they know that they have, yet they dont kill themselves. Selective Justice Much. No one is above flaw, everyone no matter how noble or good has made mistakes and has wickedness inside them. The only way the code could overcome this is if justicars where trained from birth thus thier actions could be excused as under the code but thier not so

THE FOLLOWING IS A SERIOUS POST

There's nothing about the Justicar code that assumes retrospective punishment. There are plenty of real-world examples where a person's history can be perfectly, legally, "masked". The classic example would be the French Foreign Legion, which even allows those to enlist with "false" names.

There's plenty of real-world examples of individuals who led questionable lives until dedicating themselves to a cause or goal entirely noble and proper. There's no reason to assume the Asari Justicar Code is retrospective; that'd be self-defeating - it would probably lead to the order dying out.

To command the power and authority of a Justicar would require a lot of real-world experience before one even began the path. To  know what is good and proper, one must know what is not. I would posit that a hypothetical Justicar who had never done a questionable thing, never made a true error of judgement or act would be a less capable Justicar.

Well "IF" that where true it would just cuase another hypocracy. For if the code is designed to punish the wicked but allows for not punishing the wickedness that one has done in the past then you are not punishing the wicked.

Furthermore such a defense would present itself as yes I murdered that man but I'm not murdering right now. That was the past. Then any punishment thereto doled out would be retroactive by definition and thus would revert to the old state of hypocracy

And Finally All of what that last exchange is tottally irrelevent becuase ALL punishment is retroactive by the very meaning of the word. You can not punish someone for a crime unless that crime has already been committed.

why r we talking about this this  is a tali thread

Becuase Tali is curious about the motivations of her crewmates, and wether or not she may need to shotgun them in the face at some future date. DUH!

[Pauravi]

Gerudan wrote...

Pauravi wrote...

She never once calls it pointless.  She does what she does not only for the sake of the Code but because she is pursuing Morinth.  It most definitely has a point.

Of course she implicitly says it. She even admits that she could get killed.  

The situation and her thoughts are quite clear. 

According to you, perhaps.  I disagree that they are clear, and I don't think that's what she implied.
She knows she could be killed, but it doesn't follow that it is a pointless action to take.

[gkillerrin]

SNIP

alickar wrote...

why r we talking about this this  is a tali thread

Ha we posted at the same time ... and yes please get back on topic

Modifié par gkillerrin, 14 mars 2010 - 12:36 .

[GMR25]

Salutations everyone, debating in a Socratic method are we?

[The_KFD_Case]

TGFKAMAdmaX wrote...

The_KFD_Case wrote...


As Samara points out the Asari justicars are similar to the Council Spectres, though Shepard is correct in pointing out that the Spectres (at least in theory) have some oversight from the Council itself. As with the Spectres so too do I think it is with the justicars: While the justicars are obligated to punish the wicked there may still be some leeway as to which of the wicked they go after first and foremost. Example: Samara on Omega comments on the rampant abuses on Omega, yet she does not stray from her oath to Shepard's mission. Also, before swearing the oath to Shepard, she once had an encounter with a Turian Spectre - she chose to let him escape because he deliberately endangered the lives of many innocents. She chose to save them instead of killing him indicating that she is not without the ability to think for herself even while adhering to the code. If that is the case for her then perhaps some of the other justicars act similarly, just as different Spectres act differently too (i.e. some arrest criminals while others simply kill them where they stand)?

As for justicars not being above reproach I concur. What evidence do we have that if any justicars have gone rogue that they haven't committed suicide? Perhaps some have, perhaps some haven't. If some haven't I strongly suspect that the code would compel other justicars to hunt their former colleague down. We simply do not have enough detailed information about all things justicar to ascertain these things with empirical confidence.

good points all around...but didnt samara say that "the code compelled her to save them"?

I don't recall, yet if it did then that would be further proof that the code is not only concerned about punishing the wicked. I do recall Samara commenting on Illium that if need be she would kill every person that got in the way of her mission even though she would take no pleasure in doing so. That being the case, taken in combination with her act to save the innocents from death and let the Spectre get away, it implies that she is not without the capacity to render decisions for herself, which in turn implies that she is engaging in lucid cognitive processes.

[alickar]

Geth Hunter Alpha wrote...

alickar wrote...

Geth Hunter Alpha wrote...

Terrorfex wrote...

Geth Hunter Alpha wrote...

Terrorfex wrote...



THE FOLLOWING IS A SERIOUS POST

The Justicar system is by definition bent to self-policing, albeit imperfectly. When anything approaching a theological or absolutist authoritiarian order is defined by a set of inflexible documents and/or narrow intepretation of conduct and gives rise to a "rogue" element, those elements are invariably suppressed, hunted down or challenged by the majority of the individuals produced by that same system.

The Justicars do not need oversight in the same way as C-Sec needs it - The near total majority of Justicars who emerge from their order will be compelled to remove rogue Justicars by their code which leaves no room for intepretation in such matters. The difference between C-Sec, and even the Spectres and the Justicar order being of course that the latter has supreme and total authority to act whereas even Spectres do not.

To clarify in my post I wasn't talking about rogue justicars that need to be hunted down I was talking about the fact that even normal justicars have done things in the past that would likely contradict the code. For example. Asari are often mercs in thier maiden stage - then something happens that makes them decide to become a justicar (like what happened to Samara) Now the code would compel them to kill a person who does something wicked. And they know that they have, yet they dont kill themselves. Selective Justice Much. No one is above flaw, everyone no matter how noble or good has made mistakes and has wickedness inside them. The only way the code could overcome this is if justicars where trained from birth thus thier actions could be excused as under the code but thier not so

THE FOLLOWING IS A SERIOUS POST

There's nothing about the Justicar code that assumes retrospective punishment. There are plenty of real-world examples where a person's history can be perfectly, legally, "masked". The classic example would be the French Foreign Legion, which even allows those to enlist with "false" names.

There's plenty of real-world examples of individuals who led questionable lives until dedicating themselves to a cause or goal entirely noble and proper. There's no reason to assume the Asari Justicar Code is retrospective; that'd be self-defeating - it would probably lead to the order dying out.

To command the power and authority of a Justicar would require a lot of real-world experience before one even began the path. To  know what is good and proper, one must know what is not. I would posit that a hypothetical Justicar who had never done a questionable thing, never made a true error of judgement or act would be a less capable Justicar.

Well "IF" that where true it would just cuase another hypocracy. For if the code is designed to punish the wicked but allows for not punishing the wickedness that one has done in the past then you are not punishing the wicked.

Furthermore such a defense would present itself as yes I murdered that man but I'm not murdering right now. That was the past. Then any punishment thereto doled out would be retroactive by definition and thus would revert to the old state of hypocracy

And Finally All of what that last exchange is tottally irrelevent becuase ALL punishment is retroactive by the very meaning of the word. You can not punish someone for a crime unless that crime has already been committed.

why r we talking about this this  is a tali thread

Becuase Tali is curious about the motivations of her crewmates, and wether or not she may need to shotgun them in the face at some future date. DUH!

this is about putting tali in mass 3 not talking about other squaddies

[Angelraid]

GMR25 wrote...

Salutations everyone, debating in a Socratic method are we?

Its a distinct possibility. :innocent:

[danteshepard]

GMR25 wrote...

Salutations everyone, debating in a Socratic method are we?

pretty much. If you squint though you can see a small discussion about what a renegade tali would look like. To add onto that topic how would that chnage her dialouge options if you were able to turn her to the proverbial Dark Side.

[Angelraid]

alickar wrote...

Geth Hunter Alpha wrote...

alickar wrote...

why r we talking about this this  is a tali thread

Becuase Tali is curious about the motivations of her crewmates, and wether or not she may need to shotgun them in the face at some future date. DUH!

this is about putting tali in mass 3 not talking about other squaddies

This thread is about all thing Tali. If Tali wants to know about it then we discuss it. Tali is the ultimate authority. What Tali wants Tali Gets. And she wants to know about this

[Gerudan]

Pauravi wrote...


According to you, perhaps.  I disagree that they are clear, and I don't think that's what she implied.
She knows she could be killed, but it doesn't follow that it is a pointless action to take.

She would kill some innocent policemen (or who only do their job) and Samara would probably get killed, that sounds quite pointless to me compared to just try to find another way to track Morinth down. 

[GMR25]

danteshepard wrote...

GMR25 wrote...

Salutations everyone, debating in a Socratic method are we?

pretty much. If you squint though you can see a small discussion about what a renegade tali would look like. To add onto that topic how would that chnage her dialouge options if you were able to turn her to the proverbial Dark Side.

Doesn't Tali already act rather Renegade?

[gkillerrin]

danteshepard wrote...

GMR25 wrote...

Salutations everyone, debating in a Socratic method are we?

pretty much. If you squint though you can see a small discussion about what a renegade tali would look like. To add onto that topic how would that chnage her dialouge options if you were able to turn her to the proverbial Dark Side.

Darth Vader, and Jack put together for speech options ...

WOW that would be evil, scarry, and slightly arousing

[alickar]

Geth Hunter Alpha wrote...

alickar wrote...

Geth Hunter Alpha wrote...

alickar wrote...

why r we talking about this this  is a tali thread

Becuase Tali is curious about the motivations of her crewmates, and wether or not she may need to shotgun them in the face at some future date. DUH!

this is about putting tali in mass 3 not talking about other squaddies

This thread is about all thing Tali. If Tali wants to know about it then we discuss it. Tali is the ultimate authority. What Tali wants Tali Gets. And she wants to know about this

nuu u want tali to kno

[The_KFD_Case]

Geth Hunter Alpha wrote...

Pauravi wrote...

Geth Hunter Alpha wrote...

All the references to punishment in the game are death so thats where I draw my conclusion.

Yes, but my point was that you don't know what crimes the Code concerns itself with.
You said that the punishment for everything, no matter the crime, is death.  But if the Code doesn't concern itself with thing that are not "capital offenses", so to speak, then this is of no consequence.

As to the issue of what is wickedness that is basically what I was saying. But to illistrate. If killing someone is wicked - and the punishment is to kill them - then you have killed someone - for which the punishment is death. By following the code you essentially break the code, but its ok cuase you were following the code. Hypocracy.

But the Code clearly doesn't say killing anyone is wicked, it says killing innocents is wicked.  If you kill someone who has killed innocents, you are killing the wicked.  Which is not wicked.  Because they aren't innocent.  So... yeah.  No hipocrisy.

Ah yes, innocent. But then that just another sidestep. Becuase now it is how do you define innocent. No one is totally innocent, not even justicars. and thus all the same points apply.

By your definition. There is no evidence to support the idea that the code views all conceivable transgressions as transgressions. It seems to me that you are projecting your own interpretations and opinion that everyone is guilty of something or other here rather than the justicars.

[danteshepard]

GMR25 wrote...

danteshepard wrote...

GMR25 wrote...

Salutations everyone, debating in a Socratic method are we?

pretty much. If you squint though you can see a small discussion about what a renegade tali would look like. To add onto that topic how would that chnage her dialouge options if you were able to turn her to the proverbial Dark Side.

Doesn't Tali already act rather Renegade?

i mean moreso. Istead of being so worried about other people she's more indulgent in what she wants with less care for others.

[Angelraid]

danteshepard wrote...

GMR25 wrote...

Salutations everyone, debating in a Socratic method are we?

pretty much. If you squint though you can see a small discussion about what a renegade tali would look like. To add onto that topic how would that chnage her dialouge options if you were able to turn her to the proverbial Dark Side.

Pretty sure this has already been settled. Where is that Pic at from yesterday.