137512 réponses à ce sujet

[NuclearBuddha]

mothbanquet wrote...

Writing something out of someone's character shows a distinct lack of imagination and realism in my opinion.  i know someone who was striaght for forty years before coming out, proof if any were needed that things such as sexuality cannot be 'written out' of anyone.

I see your point but i believe that even the creators of art can dorp the ball at times (looking at you, George Lucas) and this is one of them.

Emphasis mine.

Wait a minute, so every character must be capable of and willing to do everything?  Good thing they all look different, otherwise it would be hard to tell them apart.  Maybe that's not what you're trying to say, but that's preposterous.

I'm neutral on this whole same-sex thing (who cares?) but the writers are free to give their characters whatever kind of limitations, personal codes, or whatever that they desire.

[mothbanquet]

cutthecameras wrote...

Is it wrong that I see the way Tali acts there as totally out of character? Why would she lead my Shepard on like that only to keep blowing her off essentially? That's not the Tali I know and love that's for sure.

I thought the same thing.  Kinda like BW lost their nerves.

[Phil725]

mothbanquet wrote...

Jakegnosis wrote...

My Shep is full Paragon, but I still have just over 20% renegade.  Some of the Renegade options are just sensible, like shooting Fade's agent's Krogan bodyguards before they can draw on you, or blowing up the crazed Krogan warlord before he can finish his "I'm going to rule the galaxy!!!" speech.  You pretty much knew there was no chance for a peaceful resolution in those situations.  Oh, and headbutting that jackass in Grunt's loyalty mission seemed like it was just good etiquette on Tuchanka.  

It's not like Paragon Shepard doesn't do what needs to be done, he just prefers to exhaust all diplomatic alternatives before he has to kill three dozen people.  And it works out well for him.  I'm cautiously optimistic about all the big decisions I made with him, and I feel that they're all in character.

Each to his own mate, and that's the magic of ME, we all have our decisions that we believe to be right.  I just like the idea that everything need to be so clear cut or defined.  In fact, I'd be happy in ME3 if the rachni went psycho again, just to give all you paragons who saved the queen smoething to think about

I was actually hoping for some kind of twist like that as well, since it seems like all the better choices are paragon.  Some kind of combination of the council keeping the turian fleet from getting involved if you saved them, the rachni turning on you, the collector base being integral to defeating the reapers and the rewritten heretic geth starting to worship the reapers again.

Sadly all the paragon options will probably turn out beneficial and us renegade Sheps won't have much of a leg to stand on

[Jakegnosis]

cutthecameras wrote...

mothbanquet wrote...


They probably will, you can't expect the internet to he sensible or rational about something.  I've never really spoken about the subject before but I found female Shep's relationship with Liara in ME1 to be really deep and personable.  I don't see why this couldn't be extended to ME2, especially as the whole franchise is based around the concept of choice.

When people say 'Oh, Tali's a straight character, so she's off-limits' two thoughts spring to mind.  First, why do they care so much?  Nobody's forcing anything down their throats and if they don't like the idea then don't do it, is that really so hard?  Second, the whole ME experience is about personal interpretation.  Every Shepard is unique to us, and therefore every relationship with a secondary character is unique also.  Nobody can claim to 'know' anything about Tali, nor should they.

Phew, I'll stop there.

You make some great points.
Same stance I take on the subject, I'm assuming you can understand why I'd be a little distraught that Casey Hudson himself said that "Shepard is not gay" Flat out, just like that. Crap, maybe his Shepard isn't. But the Shepard I've created means something to me personally, and no one, not even the dev can take that away from me. I get to choose, sorry Hudson.

I agree 100% with both of you.

Mass Effect is an incredibly personal experience.  I'm more attached to my Commander Shepard than I've been to any videogame character, and I think that's mostly because he is defined primarily by me.  In the framework provided by Bioware, sure, but I doubt anyone has precisely the same interpretation of Shepard as I do, and the great thing is that we're all right.  The choices that my Shepard has made and the relationships he's cultivated are just as valid as those of anyone else's Shepard.

And, frankly, I'm privileged, as a straight male, to have been able to cultivate the romantic relationships I wished in both games, with Liara in ME1 and Tali in ME2.  I don't understand why letting people of other sexual orientations cultivate whatever romnces they damn well please cheapens my game in any way.  In my ME, Commander Nicholas Shepard, a war hero born on a military vessel and trained as an infiltrator, is head-over-heels crazy about Tali'Zorah vas Normandy, an adorable Quarian machinist who happens to fancy guys.  If, in some parallel reality, vicious former gang member and all-around ruthless biotic killing machine Commander Nicole Shepard is head-over-heels crazy about Tali'Zorah vas Normandy, an adorable Quarian machinist who happens to fancy women, it still has nothing to do with my particular Shepard and Tali.  At all.

[Garlador]

cutthecameras wrote...

Garlador wrote...

Quick statements on the whole lesbian Tali thing.

I'm absolutely fine with her being straight. If she prefers men, she prefer men and that's an intentional character trait. If you don't agree with it, that doesn't mean she should compromise her own preferences for yours.

I'm not gonna get into it. But if Tali flat out said "hey I'm into guys" then I would understand, but she doesn't. Also Tali is pixels, and those were put there by Bioware. Bioware has done a fine job of excluding any romance option that doesn't please straight men and women...It's not quite fair to those that fall outside of that. Big surprise.

Then play Jade Empire and have a lesbian or gay romance in that game. Should Final Fantasy X let Tidus romance Wakka? Should Fable 2 let you shack up and raise kids with a same-sex partner?
I understand where you're coming from, but these are intentional developer decisions. It's THEIR game, not YOURS... or mine. They made a decision that certain characters would be straight. And just like real life, sometimes the person you want just isn't in to you. And I support their decision to make these characters have sexual preferences, even if that means some people are upset Tali won't scissor with FemShep or Ashley won't renounce God and become a lesbian or Wrex won't show MaleShep his quads.
I don't always agree with it. I mean, I WANTED to be friends with Jack, but for the sake of the characters or the story, she wouldn't settle for that and would become angry and defensive and misinterpret my innocent questions as expressing an interest. But that's who she is. I'm not happy with it, but I find it makes her a more compelling character to have that sort of mindset with that set of values.
Tali is no different. Just like Samara, if female gamers want her and can't have her, she still remains a loyal and loving friend. For Tali, I think that's all she wants from FemShep. And that's not wrong. People may want more, people will always want more, but the fact that they do want "more" proves that there's something that character doesn't have, whether it be a character flaw or a personality idiosyncricy, and that makes the characters realistic and compelling.

[NuclearBuddha]

Phil725 wrote...

I was actually hoping for some kind of twist like that as well, since it seems like all the better choices are paragon.  Some kind of combination of the council keeping the turian fleet from getting involved if you saved them, the rachni turning on you, the collector base being integral to defeating the reapers and the rewritten heretic geth starting to worship the reapers again.

Sadly all the paragon options will probably turn out beneficial and us renegade Sheps won't have much of a leg to stand on

I figure renegade Sheps will have a nice Collector base to stand on.

[Urban Legend]

Azint wrote...

Garlador wrote...

Quick statements on the whole lesbian Tali thing.

I'm absolutely fine with her being straight. If she prefers men, she prefer men and that's an intentional character trait. If you don't agree with it, that doesn't mean she should compromise her own preferences for yours.

In similar tastes, I know a lot of people wanted to romance Samara, but she rejects you. Why? It's part of her character. Others wanted to romance Morinth and live to talk about it, but she'll kill you if you sleep with her. Why? It's her character. In ME1, Liara is okay with a threesome with Ashley while Ashley is totally repulsed by the idea.

That may seem like a cop-out answer, but I find it to be integral to who they are, what they believe in and stand for, just how open-minded or close-minded they are. They aren't just digital shells but almost tangible characters with identifiable, discernible values and mindsets.

And Tali is great for who she is, regardless of her sexual preferences, opinions of the Geth, or open disdain for Cerberus. Whether you consider those character flaws or not, she has a solid, clear and concise opinion and prefer, which makes her attractive. Like Samara, if you're a girl and you just can't romance her, she's still a good, loyal, and loving friend, and that's far more than most could ever ask for.

Agreed.

Still up to the devs however.

I agree as well. I just hope the devs keep her character consistent.

[wolfstanus]

So I have been gone for about 2 or so hours. Anything happen since then?

[mothbanquet]

NuclearBuddha wrote...

mothbanquet wrote...

Writing something out of someone's character shows a distinct lack of imagination and realism in my opinion.  i know someone who was striaght for forty years before coming out, proof if any were needed that things such as sexuality cannot be 'written out' of anyone.

I see your point but i believe that even the creators of art can dorp the ball at times (looking at you, George Lucas) and this is one of them.

Emphasis mine.

Wait a minute, so every character must be capable of and willing to do everything?  Good thing they all look different, otherwise it would be hard to tell them apart.  Maybe that's not what you're trying to say, but that's preposterous.

I'm neutral on this whole same-sex thing (who cares?) but the writers are free to give their characters whatever kind of limitations, personal codes, or whatever that they desire.

That's missing the point a little.  I don't presume to tell BioWare what they should or shouldn't do with their characters but for a game that's all about choice and decisions it seems a little odd to simply rule something out so definitively.

Oh, and I'm not saying that each character should be given the range of personality and experience on a par with an AI, I know that's impossible.  <_<

[videowiz186]

wolfstanus wrote...

So I have been gone for about 2 or so hours. Anything happen since then?

Have posted Part 9 of fanfiction. Took long time to write.

[videowiz186]

videowiz186 wrote...

Moth, created Part 9 of fanfiction. Would like personal opinion.

In case missed, Moth.

[mothbanquet]

Garlador wrote...

cutthecameras wrote...

Garlador wrote...

Quick statements on the whole lesbian Tali thing.

I'm absolutely fine with her being straight. If she prefers men, she prefer men and that's an intentional character trait. If you don't agree with it, that doesn't mean she should compromise her own preferences for yours.

I'm not gonna get into it. But if Tali flat out said "hey I'm into guys" then I would understand, but she doesn't. Also Tali is pixels, and those were put there by Bioware. Bioware has done a fine job of excluding any romance option that doesn't please straight men and women...It's not quite fair to those that fall outside of that. Big surprise.

Then play Jade Empire and have a lesbian or gay romance in that game. Should Final Fantasy X let Tidus romance Wakka? Should Fable 2 let you shack up and raise kids with a same-sex partner?
I understand where you're coming from, but these are intentional developer decisions. It's THEIR game, not YOURS... or mine. They made a decision that certain characters would be straight. And just like real life, sometimes the person you want just isn't in to you. And I support their decision to make these characters have sexual preferences, even if that means some people are upset Tali won't scissor with FemShep or Ashley won't renounce God and become a lesbian or Wrex won't show MaleShep his quads.
I don't always agree with it. I mean, I WANTED to be friends with Jack, but for the sake of the characters or the story, she wouldn't settle for that and would become angry and defensive and misinterpret my innocent questions as expressing an interest. But that's who she is. I'm not happy with it, but I find it makes her a more compelling character to have that sort of mindset with that set of values.
Tali is no different. Just like Samara, if female gamers want her and can't have her, she still remains a loyal and loving friend. For Tali, I think that's all she wants from FemShep. And that's not wrong. People may want more, people will always want more, but the fact that they do want "more" proves that there's something that character doesn't have, whether it be a character flaw or a personality idiosyncricy, and that makes the characters realistic and compelling.

Straight away, FFX starred a clearly defined main character over whose personality you had no direct influence.  Not the case with ME and JE.  Plus, you could have same sex relationships in Fable II.

[Jakegnosis]

Huacaya wrote...

Jakegnosis wrote...
My Shep is full Paragon, but I still have just over 20% renegade.  Some of the Renegade options are just sensible, like shooting Fade's agent's Krogan bodyguards before they can draw on you, or blowing up the crazed Krogan warlord before he can finish his "I'm going to rule the galaxy!!!" speech.  You pretty much knew there was no chance for a peaceful resolution in those situations.

But that's not the point. It doesn't matter how good, tactically, it was to act, the fact remains that you attacked an opponent when he was not prepared to meet you. This using guile and deceit in place of skill to defeat your opponet. That's Renegade.

Oh, I dunno.  His guys outnumbered mine like 4-1, held the high ground and they were pointing guns at us.  I'm not begrudging the renegade points, but they were absolutely prepared for a fight.

[wolfstanus]

videowiz186 wrote...

wolfstanus wrote...

So I have been gone for about 2 or so hours. Anything happen since then?

Have posted Part 9 of fanfiction. Took long time to write.

Oh good something for me to print off and save for a 15 minute brake at work. yay

[cutthecameras]

NuclearBuddha wrote...

mothbanquet wrote...

Writing something out of someone's character shows a distinct lack of imagination and realism in my opinion. i know someone who was striaght for forty years before coming out, proof if any were needed that things such as sexuality cannot be 'written out' of anyone.

I see your point but i believe that even the creators of art can dorp the ball at times (looking at you, George Lucas) and this is one of them.

Emphasis mine.

Wait a minute, so every character must be capable of and willing to do everything? Good thing they all look different, otherwise it would be hard to tell them apart. Maybe that's not what you're trying to say, but that's preposterous.

I'm neutral on this whole same-sex thing (who cares?) but the writers are free to give their characters whatever kind of limitations, personal codes, or whatever that they desire.

Willing to do everything? Hardly. If a character were romancable by both male and fem shep half you guys would have no clue til you started a file as fem Shep. Simply put. It wouldn't change who the character is to you. At least I hope it wouldn't. There may be some of you who would say "I had no idea she swung both ways" Well guess what, on that matter, everyone makes constant acts of assumption daily. There are so many variables involved in what brings two people together. It's compelling ground to explore, not something to shy away from. Especially given BWs progressive attitude on the subject in the past. You don't care because it doesn't affect you, but think of the first time you saw two videogame characters share a truly intimate moment. Wasn't it kinda cool to see that? I experienced nothing like that til my fem shep kissed Liara in the original Mass Effect.

Also Garlador. It's kind of a cop out to tell me to play an older Bioware game. Mass Effect isn't Bioware's game. It's MINE. My Shepard. My reasons, my motivations. And I'm glad some of you agree with me.

Modifié par cutthecameras, 24 février 2010 - 07:04 .

[mothbanquet]

videowiz186 wrote...

Moth, created Part 9 of fanfiction. Would like personal opinion.

Gotta go to work mate, will read at lunch!

Take care everyone, and have a great day.  Keelah se'lai!

[Himmelstor]

videowiz186 wrote...

wolfstanus wrote...

So I have been gone for about 2 or so hours. Anything happen since then?

Have posted Part 9 of fanfiction. Took long time to write.

Have posted Part Six of Act II: Descent.
Didn't take as long...
But VW's recommended highly.

[videowiz186]

mothbanquet wrote...

videowiz186 wrote...

Moth, created Part 9 of fanfiction. Would like personal opinion.

Gotta go to work mate, will read at lunch!

Take care everyone, and have a great day.  Keelah se'lai!

Keelah Se'lai, my friend!

[Himmelstor]

mothbanquet wrote...

videowiz186 wrote...

Moth, created Part 9 of fanfiction. Would like personal opinion.

Gotta go to work mate, will read at lunch!

Take care everyone, and have a great day.  Keelah se'lai!

Keelah Se'lai, my friend!

[wolfstanus]

cutthecameras wrote...

NuclearBuddha wrote...

mothbanquet wrote...

Writing something out of someone's character shows a distinct lack of imagination and realism in my opinion. i know someone who was striaght for forty years before coming out, proof if any were needed that things such as sexuality cannot be 'written out' of anyone.

I see your point but i believe that even the creators of art can dorp the ball at times (looking at you, George Lucas) and this is one of them.

Emphasis mine.

Wait a minute, so every character must be capable of and willing to do everything? Good thing they all look different, otherwise it would be hard to tell them apart. Maybe that's not what you're trying to say, but that's preposterous.

I'm neutral on this whole same-sex thing (who cares?) but the writers are free to give their characters whatever kind of limitations, personal codes, or whatever that they desire.

Willing to do everything? Hardly. If a character were romancable by both male and fem shep half you guys would have no clue til you started a file as fem Shep. Simply put. It wouldn't change who the character is to you. At least I hope it wouldn't. There may be some of you who would say "I had no idea she swung both ways" Well guess what, on that matter, everyone makes constant acts of assumption daily. There are so many variables involved in what brings two people together. It's compelling ground to explore, not something to shy away from. Especially given BWs progressive attitude on the subject in the past. You don't care because it doesn't affect you, but think of the first time you saw two videogame characters share a truly intimate moment. Wasn't it kinda cool to see that? I experienced nothing like that til my fem shep kissed Liara in the original Mass Effect.

Also Garlador. It's kind of a cop out to tell me to play an older Bioware game. Mass Effect isn't Bioware's game. It's MINE. My Shepard. My reasons, my motivations. And I'm glad some of you agree with me.

You own the CD but not the coding sounds textures models etc thats all biowares property. You just bought a limited ammount of the writes to own it.

[MMA7FF]

cutthecameras wrote...

NuclearBuddha wrote...

mothbanquet wrote...

Writing something out of someone's character shows a distinct lack of imagination and realism in my opinion. i know someone who was striaght for forty years before coming out, proof if any were needed that things such as sexuality cannot be 'written out' of anyone.

I see your point but i believe that even the creators of art can dorp the ball at times (looking at you, George Lucas) and this is one of them.

Emphasis mine.

Wait a minute, so every character must be capable of and willing to do everything? Good thing they all look different, otherwise it would be hard to tell them apart. Maybe that's not what you're trying to say, but that's preposterous.

I'm neutral on this whole same-sex thing (who cares?) but the writers are free to give their characters whatever kind of limitations, personal codes, or whatever that they desire.

Willing to do everything? Hardly. If a character were romancable by both male and fem shep half you guys would have no clue til you started a file as fem Shep. Simply put. It wouldn't change who the character is to you. At least I hope it wouldn't. There may be some of you who would say "I had no idea she swung both ways" Well guess what, on that matter, everyone makes constant acts of assumption daily. There are so many variables involved in what brings two people together. It's compelling ground to explore, not something to shy away from. Especially given BWs progressive attitude on the subject in the past. You don't care because it doesn't affect you, but think of the first time you saw two videogame characters share a truly intimate moment. Wasn't it kinda cool to see that? I experienced nothing like that til my fem shep kissed Liara in the original Mass Effect.

Also Garlador. It's kind of a cop out to tell me to play an older Bioware game. Mass Effect isn't Bioware's game. It's MINE. My Shepard. My reasons, my motivations. And I'm glad some of you agree with me.

Behomd you 100%
its Your game your the consumer it should be your rules
It should be your way.
i have a question for all the guy Tali lovers
how would you react if they made Tali ONLY like fem shep and not male shep in me2?
wouldnt you be pissed as hell?

[videowiz186]

Am retiring for night. Tired from writing. Would appreciate more comments on Part 9. VW is abbreviation of name. Do you like it? Anyways, VW signing out.



Keelah Se'lai, my friends!

[Jakegnosis]

mothbanquet wrote...

Jakegnosis wrote...

My Shep is full Paragon, but I still have just over 20% renegade.  Some of the Renegade options are just sensible, like shooting Fade's agent's Krogan bodyguards before they can draw on you, or blowing up the crazed Krogan warlord before he can finish his "I'm going to rule the galaxy!!!" speech.  You pretty much knew there was no chance for a peaceful resolution in those situations.  Oh, and headbutting that jackass in Grunt's loyalty mission seemed like it was just good etiquette on Tuchanka.  

It's not like Paragon Shepard doesn't do what needs to be done, he just prefers to exhaust all diplomatic alternatives before he has to kill three dozen people.  And it works out well for him.  I'm cautiously optimistic about all the big decisions I made with him, and I feel that they're all in character.

Each to his own mate, and that's the magic of ME, we all have our decisions that we believe to be right.  I just like the idea that everything need to be so clear cut or defined.  In fact, I'd be happy in ME3 if the rachni went psycho again, just to give all you paragons who saved the queen smoething to think about

Honestly, I hope one of my decisions does blow up in Shepard's face.  It'd be too easy otherwise.  My Shepard has a strong moral code, but that doesn't mean that the moral choice always leads to the best result.

It's like the paragon speech you give Garrus after his special mission in ME1.  I forget exactly, but Garrus wants to shoot the mad scientist, and I had Shepard try to take him in.  He draws his weapon and has to be killed anyway.  Garrus doesn't see the point, and Shepard says something like "We can't control what other people do, but we can control what we do."  That's Paragon Shepard in a nutshell, to me.  Well, my Paragon Shepard, anyway.

[MMA7FF]

videowiz186 wrote...

Am retiring for night. Tired from writing. Would appreciate more comments on Part 9. VW is abbreviation of name. Do you like it? Anyways, VW signing out.

Keelah Se'lai, my friends!

keelah se'lai my cheeky friend lol

[Himmelstor]

videowiz186 wrote...

Am retiring for night. Tired from writing. Would appreciate more comments on Part 9. VW is abbreviation of name. Do you like it? Anyways, VW signing out.

Keelah Se'lai, my friends!

Like it. Fast.
Keelah Se'lai, my good friend!