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All Tali fans, read this! IT'S UP TO US TO KEEP TALI ALIVE! 3.0!!


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#12051
NuclearBuddha

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cutthecameras wrote...

NuclearBuddha wrote...

mothbanquet wrote...

Writing something out of someone's character shows a distinct lack of imagination and realism in my opinion. i know someone who was striaght for forty years before coming out, proof if any were needed that things such as sexuality cannot be 'written out' of anyone.

I see your point but i believe that even the creators of art can dorp the ball at times (looking at you, George Lucas) and this is one of them.


Emphasis mine.

Wait a minute, so every character must be capable of and willing to do everything? Good thing they all look different, otherwise it would be hard to tell them apart. Maybe that's not what you're trying to say, but that's preposterous.

I'm neutral on this whole same-sex thing (who cares?) but the writers are free to give their characters whatever kind of limitations, personal codes, or whatever that they desire.

Willing to do everything? Hardly. If a character were romancable by both male and fem shep half you guys would have no clue til you started a file as fem Shep. Simply put. It wouldn't change who the character is to you. At least I hope it wouldn't. There may be some of you who would say "I had no idea she swung both ways" Well guess what, on that matter, everyone makes constant acts of assumption daily. There are so many variable to what makes someone like someone else. It's compelling ground to explore, not something to shy away from. Especially given BWs progressive attitude on the subject in the past. You don't care because it doesn't affect you, but think of the first time you saw two videogame characters share a truly intimate moment. Wasn't it kinda cool to see that? I experienced nothing like that til my fem shep kissed Liara in the original Mass Effect.

Also Garlador. It's kind of a cop out to tell me to play an older Bioware game. Mass Effect isn't Bioware's game. It's MINE. My Shepard. My reasons, my motivations. And I'm glad some of you agree with me.


See above, please.

I was commenting on what looked like moth protesting character individuality.

My opinion the matter of romance can be disregarded, I think, because I got what I wanted and thus have no place in accusing anyone of sour grapes. 

However, I will say that the writers at BW, like all writers everywhere, have no obligation to please everyone.  They, again, like all writers everywhere, have some level of general approval they strive for, and they make their decisions accordingly.  Because we cannot write the game ourselves, we are forming an agreement with them when we play that we will go along with what they have offered.

If we do not like it, we can stop (I've ragequit a couple of games and several books for things that angered or repusled me).  We can complain.  But demanding that they do differently is, in my opinion, bad form.  They're only following whatever personal or commercial guidelines they have.

#12052
cutthecameras

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MMA7FF wrote...

how would you react if they made Tali ONLY like fem shep and not male shep in me2?
wouldnt you be pissed as hell?

I'd be more interesting in seeing how a bunch of straight guys would react to Jacob, Thane, and Garrus as their only LIs. Heh. *shudder*

#12053
Jakegnosis

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mothbanquet wrote...

videowiz186 wrote...

Moth, created Part 9 of fanfiction. Would like personal opinion.


Gotta go to work mate, will read at lunch!

Take care everyone, and have a great day.  Keelah se'lai! :D


Take it easy!

Keelah Se'lai!

#12054
Garlador

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mothbanquet wrote...

Straight away, FFX starred a clearly defined main character over whose personality you had no direct influence.  Not the case with ME and JE.  Plus, you could have same sex relationships in Fable II.


True, and I'm talking about Tali in this case. Just because someone's Shepard is gay or bisexual doesn't mean she must be too. And I stated "raise kids" as a couple in Fable 2. I haven't played it, so I don't know if that's possible...

Besides that, there's always pan-sexual Kelly to romance. Or you could wind up in the position I was in for over 10 years, pining for a girl who wanted nothing more than to be friends. Harsh reality, but I think there's something compendable about a game that actually has limitations rather than being a pan-sexual playground of gender and species-liberated sex and romance. Tali is straight for the same reason Samara rejects you, Morinth kills you, Kaiden likes the ladies (despite that awkward, homoerotic stare he always gives you in ME1), Volus aren't romancable, and Salarians lack sex drives.

You either make everyone a bisexual alien-lover, or you restrict it and limit it to imbue the characters with a firmer sense of weight and reality. Double-edged sword, but every game's story must have compromises that are sure to upset certain people. Not everybody loves or appreciates the ending of Shadow of the Colossus. Not everybody finds Lost Odyssey emotionally engaging. There are even (misguided) people that hate Tali and wish nothing but burning death upon her (hard to imagine, I know.... idiots...). Ultimately, I love Tali for who she is. If she was a lesbian that would never love my straight MaleShep, I would STILL love her. I'm okay with that. I love her for her, warts and flaws and all.

Modifié par Garlador, 24 février 2010 - 07:14 .


#12055
EverettCameron

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I just had an epiphany! If we were to equate Tali (and we'll throw Garrus in there as well for continuity) to the awesome yet quirky Sci-Fi companions of yester-year...lets use Chewbaca as an example ( no I'm not comparing her to a wookie). Then logic dictates that she'll be around for the 3rd game. I mean its so bloody obvious....or it could be that I'm typing this out at 2am and it makes perfect sense to me now: in my sleep addled state.

#12056
NuclearBuddha

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EverettCameron wrote...

I just had an epiphany! If we were to equate Tali (and we'll throw Garrus in there as well for continuity) to the awesome yet quirky Sci-Fi companions of yester-year...lets use Chewbaca as an example ( no I'm not comparing her to a wookie). Then logic dictates that she'll be around for the 3rd game. I mean its so bloody obvious....or it could be that I'm typing this out at 2am and it makes perfect sense to me now: in my sleep addled state.


That is the dream, yes.

#12057
MMA7FF

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listen..

i like tali as a character too

but i highly doubt you straight guys would be such extatic tali fans if she shot you down in me2 and told you she like the va jay jay..

#12058
Himmelstor

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Must go.

If haven't read Act II: Descent Part Six please do! Is up in blog!



Tali Forever! All for Tali!

Keelah Se'lai!

#12059
WrathWinters

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Hey Himmelstor, if you take the role of Mordin, a Salarian, why do you say Keelah Se'lai to everyone?

#12060
Himmelstor

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WrathWinters wrote...

Hey Himmelstor, if you take the role of Mordin, a Salarian, why do you say Keelah Se'lai to everyone?

Is Tali thread, that's why!

Now, Keelah Se'lai!

#12061
MMA7FF

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Himmelstor wrote...

Must go.
If haven't read Act II: Descent Part Six please do! Is up in blog!

Tali Forever! All for Tali!
Keelah Se'lai!


keelah se'lai my friend

#12062
EverettCameron

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also....it'd be like if when they made Baldur's Gate 2 and in some alternate reality didn't add Minsc. people would have rioted and Edmonton would have been a smoking pile of ash.

#12063
cutthecameras

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NuclearBuddha wrote...

See above, please.

I was commenting on what looked like moth protesting character individuality.

My opinion the matter of romance can be disregarded, I think, because I got what I wanted and thus have no place in accusing anyone of sour grapes.

However, I will say that the writers at BW, like all writers everywhere, have no obligation to please everyone. They, again, like all writers everywhere, have some level of general approval they strive for, and they make their decisions accordingly. Because we cannot write the game ourselves, we are forming an agreement with them when we play that we will go along with what they have offered.

If we do not like it, we can stop (I've ragequit a couple of games and several books for things that angered or repusled me). We can complain. But demanding that they do differently is, in my opinion, bad form. They're only following whatever personal or commercial guidelines they have.

Agreed, friend.

I agree that BioWare doesn't owe anyone anything with the exception of producing a great and satisfying product. I don't believe that devs have any kind of ethical obligation to include political or social statements in their games. Personally, I think developers are free to do whatever they want, and it's up to the consumers to decide who they want to support. That said, it's obvious I was still quite disappointed to see that BioWare, who has pretty much been the leader in promoting equality and acceptability for alternative relationships in videogames, has now backed down. And in their best work yet, its like they're ok with keeping things gay in the past but they had to clean up their act for their latest masterpiece.

It's almost cowardly. I can't see a downside, and can't think of any real reason why such options weren't included.

Modifié par cutthecameras, 24 février 2010 - 07:20 .


#12064
Jakegnosis

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EverettCameron wrote...

I just had an epiphany! If we were to equate Tali (and we'll throw Garrus in there as well for continuity) to the awesome yet quirky Sci-Fi companions of yester-year...lets use Chewbaca as an example ( no I'm not comparing her to a wookie). Then logic dictates that she'll be around for the 3rd game. I mean its so bloody obvious....or it could be that I'm typing this out at 2am and it makes perfect sense to me now: in my sleep addled state.


Makes perfect sense to me.  I'm actually not worried about Tali's role being reduced at all.  Her lines and story arc are so great, you can just tell the writing staff loves her.  Plus, they didn't make the majority of ME2 about recruiting the galaxy's best team just to blow up said team, particularly not the longest-standing members.

#12065
NuclearBuddha

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MMA7FF wrote...

listen..
i like tali as a character too
but i highly doubt you straight guys would be such extatic tali fans if she shot you down in me2 and told you she like the va jay jay..


You're probably right.  But I'd probably move on (to Jack, maybe?) because hey, what can I do about it?  It was the choice of the writers.  I'm certainly not going to come on here insisting that she should be a different way.

Also, this "va jay jay" thing is hilarious.

#12066
Lone_Wolf0

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I went on a retreat to a Buddhist temple this January for about a week, and we actually managed to ask one of the nuns there what the "standard" answer to the question of homosexuality would be from them, and I was actually pleasantly surprised by the answer that she gave to the people there. She said that ultimately, it's all about love. Love trespasses boundaries, and as long as the relationship between two people is healthy and brings them happiness, it shouldn't matter if a man/woman liked someone of their own gender. I'm a heterosexual man myself, but I have no problems with gays whatsoever. In fact, some of my gay friends are better than some straight people I know. Tali may have been created by Bioware as an exclusively male romance option, but that doesn't mean that she would be unable to fall in love with a woman. Unfortunately, in ME 2, it simply isn't possible due to the limitations imposed by the script itself.

#12067
Garlador

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EverettCameron wrote...

I just had an epiphany! If we were to equate Tali (and we'll throw Garrus in there as well for continuity) to the awesome yet quirky Sci-Fi companions of yester-year...lets use Chewbaca as an example ( no I'm not comparing her to a wookie). Then logic dictates that she'll be around for the 3rd game. I mean its so bloody obvious....or it could be that I'm typing this out at 2am and it makes perfect sense to me now: in my sleep addled state.


Actually, everyone in ME2 reminds me of someone from Firefly.

Samara/Thane=Shepard Book (religious killers)
Jack=River (traumatized psychic girls)
Miranda=Inara (powerful, classy, and beautiful)
Joker=Wash (expert ship pilots with sense of humor)
Mordin=Simon (ship medic)
Grunt/Zaeed=Jayne (mercenaries and loose canons)
Jacob=Zoey (faithful follower who switched sides)
Tali=Kaylee (engineer... loves ships... is totally cute and adorable)

#12068
cutthecameras

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Again. Thanks for the supportive responses and open minds. I'm going to bed now. Night guys



Keelah Se'lai

#12069
NuclearBuddha

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cutthecameras wrote...

NuclearBuddha wrote...

See above, please.

I was commenting on what looked like moth protesting character individuality.

My opinion the matter of romance can be disregarded, I think, because I got what I wanted and thus have no place in accusing anyone of sour grapes.

However, I will say that the writers at BW, like all writers everywhere, have no obligation to please everyone. They, again, like all writers everywhere, have some level of general approval they strive for, and they make their decisions accordingly. Because we cannot write the game ourselves, we are forming an agreement with them when we play that we will go along with what they have offered.

If we do not like it, we can stop (I've ragequit a couple of games and several books for things that angered or repusled me). We can complain. But demanding that they do differently is, in my opinion, bad form. They're only following whatever personal or commercial guidelines they have.

Agreed, friend.

I agree that BioWare doesn't owe anyone anything with the exception of producing a great and satisfying product. I don't believe that devs have any kind of ethical obligation to include political or social statements in their games. Personally, I think developers are free to do whatever they want, and it's up to the consumers to decide who they want to support. That said, i's obvious I was still quite disappointed to see that BioWare, who has pretty much been the leader in promoting equality and acceptability for alternative relationships in videogames, has now backed down. And in their best work yet, its like they're ok with keeping things gay in the past but they had to clean up their act for their latest masterpiece.

It's almost cowardly. I can't see a downside, and can't think of any real reason why such options weren't included.


Cool, we basically see eye-to-eye on that, then.  However, I'll point out that just because we can't imagine a reason doesn't mean that they didn't have one.

BTW, your comment about Garrus, Thane and Jacob being the only options for male Sheps made me laugh.  Then I got to thinking, and I guess I would just have to make Garrus wear a wig.

#12070
MMA7FF

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NuclearBuddha wrote...

MMA7FF wrote...

listen..
i like tali as a character too
but i highly doubt you straight guys would be such extatic tali fans if she shot you down in me2 and told you she like the va jay jay..


You're probably right.  But I'd probably move on (to Jack, maybe?) because hey, what can I do about it?  It was the choice of the writers.  I'm certainly not going to come on here insisting that she should be a different way.

Also, this "va jay jay" thing is hilarious.


haha yea i love that word
but you kno what im getting at right?
would you really even be in this thread demanding her return in the 3rd game if it werent for the fact you could actually have something with her?
cause i doubt alot of you would be :P
just stating facts lol

Modifié par MMA7FF, 24 février 2010 - 07:24 .


#12071
Azint

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Garlador wrote...

EverettCameron wrote...

I just had an epiphany! If we were to equate Tali (and we'll throw Garrus in there as well for continuity) to the awesome yet quirky Sci-Fi companions of yester-year...lets use Chewbaca as an example ( no I'm not comparing her to a wookie). Then logic dictates that she'll be around for the 3rd game. I mean its so bloody obvious....or it could be that I'm typing this out at 2am and it makes perfect sense to me now: in my sleep addled state.


Actually, everyone in ME2 reminds me of someone from Firefly.

Samara/Thane=Shepard Book (religious killers)
Jack=River (traumatized psychic girls)
Miranda=Inara (powerful, classy, and beautiful)
Joker=Wash (expert ship pilots with sense of humor)
Mordin=Simon (ship medic)
Grunt/Zaeed=Jayne (mercenaries and loose canons)
Jacob=Zoey (faithful follower who switched sides)
Tali=Kaylee (engineer... loves ships... is totally cute and adorable)




They really need Nathan Fillion in ME3. And Summer Glau.

Modifié par Azint, 24 février 2010 - 07:24 .


#12072
Jakegnosis

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cutthecameras wrote...

MMA7FF wrote...

how would you react if they made Tali ONLY like fem shep and not male shep in me2?
wouldnt you be pissed as hell?

I'd be more interesting in seeing how a bunch of straight guys would react to Jacob, Thane, and Garrus as their only LIs. Heh. *shudder*


I'd be disappointed.  My girlfriend is romancing Thane in her first playthrough (she wanted Tali, BTW), and from what I've seen it's really well-written and nuanced, but there would be a level of clinical detachment for me with those options, because they don't evoke the same response in me that Tali's complete and utter adorability does.  I'm just not wired that way.

#12073
Lone_Wolf0

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Garlador wrote...

EverettCameron wrote...

I just had an epiphany! If we were to equate Tali (and we'll throw Garrus in there as well for continuity) to the awesome yet quirky Sci-Fi companions of yester-year...lets use Chewbaca as an example ( no I'm not comparing her to a wookie). Then logic dictates that she'll be around for the 3rd game. I mean its so bloody obvious....or it could be that I'm typing this out at 2am and it makes perfect sense to me now: in my sleep addled state.


Actually, everyone in ME2 reminds me of someone from Firefly.

Samara/Thane=Shepard Book (religious killers)
Jack=River (traumatized psychic girls)
Miranda=Inara (powerful, classy, and beautiful)
Joker=Wash (expert ship pilots with sense of humor)
Mordin=Simon (ship medic)
Grunt/Zaeed=Jayne (mercenaries and loose canons)
Jacob=Zoey (faithful follower who switched sides)
Tali=Kaylee (engineer... loves ships... is totally cute and adorable)




I think Bioware did say something about Mass Effect being kind of a mix of a lot of sci fi series that the writers and all who worked on the game like. They came up with something complety new which captured so many of our imaginations, and yet they managed to still insert a lot of familiar elements.
<3 Tali. And Kaylee as well.

#12074
wolfstanus

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Jakegnosis wrote...

EverettCameron wrote...

I just had an epiphany! If we were to equate Tali (and we'll throw Garrus in there as well for continuity) to the awesome yet quirky Sci-Fi companions of yester-year...lets use Chewbaca as an example ( no I'm not comparing her to a wookie). Then logic dictates that she'll be around for the 3rd game. I mean its so bloody obvious....or it could be that I'm typing this out at 2am and it makes perfect sense to me now: in my sleep addled state.


Makes perfect sense to me.  I'm actually not worried about Tali's role being reduced at all.  Her lines and story arc are so great, you can just tell the writing staff loves her.  Plus, they didn't make the majority of ME2 about recruiting the galaxy's best team just to blow up said team, particularly not the longest-standing members.


They may dump the minor people like Zaeed or or the other person thats also going to be a download (maybe) But I think all are going to be in the next game to some degree depending on who you let die... you may end up getting like 3 or 4 people in the next game because you let everybody die. Who knows. But chances are they will not do the whole LI hates your guts thing again.

#12075
MMA7FF

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Jakegnosis wrote...

cutthecameras wrote...

MMA7FF wrote...

how would you react if they made Tali ONLY like fem shep and not male shep in me2?
wouldnt you be pissed as hell?

I'd be more interesting in seeing how a bunch of straight guys would react to Jacob, Thane, and Garrus as their only LIs. Heh. *shudder*


I'd be disappointed.  My girlfriend is romancing Thane in her first playthrough (she wanted Tali, BTW), and from what I've seen it's really well-written and nuanced, but there would be a level of clinical detachment for me with those options, because they don't evoke the same response in me that Tali's complete and utter adorability does.  I'm just not wired that way.


exactly im the same way and the other LI's just didnt cut it for me : /