137512 réponses à ce sujet

[Simon9one]

Phil725 wrote...

Simon9one wrote...

Phil725 wrote...
snipped

People hate Tali because the quarians invented the geth.  We all see that as wrong.  Why is it OK for Tali to hate all members of Cerberus without further knowledge? 

She was Quarian by birth, not by choice.

And everyone has heard of Cerberus' dark past.  She saw Jacob as soneone willing to join an organization she hadn't heard a single good thing about.

She is still judging without knowing all the facts.  Jacob joined Cerberus as a last resort because the Alliance was limiting him (at least I think thats the story.)  He didn't join because he was a quarian hating human supremecist. 

But to the point that she hadn't heard anything good about Cerberus, the same is true for quarians.  We hear all kinds of rumors about the quarians, about them being cyborgs and stuff.  It seems to me that there are plenty of people who know that the quarians invented the geth, and thats all.  Its wrong to judge people before you get the whole story.  No exceptions.

I hate making comparisons of this sort...but in this case, it may be appropriate.
Think of cerberus as the Ku Klux Klan.
Common knowledge states that Cerberus has done nothing but evil.  And when you've seen them set up thresher maw attacks on alliance soldiers, do experiments with thorian creepers and rachni, and engage in acts of terrorism, that only enforces the preconception.
The KKK is similar.  I can't think of a single good thing they've done (and no, this is not up for debate). 

If I saw a Klansman, I wouldn't try to get to know them better.  I wouldn't try to understand their ways.  They would be nothing more than a racist bigot to me.  And that is how Tali sees Cerberus.  They're unethical extremists and terrorists to her, and anyone who joins must share those views.

Modifié par Simon9one, 05 avril 2010 - 03:28 .

[Ormagodenator]

Goat_Shepard wrote...

gkillerrin wrote...

runescapeguy9 wrote...

Lividity Jones wrote...

runescapeguy9 wrote...

Lividity Jones wrote...
Does Jacob even mention the attack on the Flotilla?

Tali brings it up.

So we don't really know his opinion on it?

He states he had nothing to do with it, and that he wants to work with Tali anyways.

Its also a fact that Jacob doesnt trust Cerberus, TIM says so himself, and so does Jacob if you walk to him about it.

Yeah I always liked Jacob. The only thing is he trusted Cerby to handle Veetor which in someone ELSES playthrough would be a catastrophic result.

Oh, and he totally thinks Maleshep is gay lol

I KNEW IT,
when I was playing ME2 the whole time I was thinking,
"please don't have gay LI like in DA"

[Goat_Shepard]

Phil725 wrote...

Mukora wrote...

Phil725 wrote...

Why hate Jacob?  He had absolutely nothing to do with the attack on the flotilla.  People hate Tali because the quarians invented the geth.  We all see that as wrong.  Why is it OK for Tali to hate all members of Cerberus without further knowledge?  Her and Jacob are in agreement with the attack on the flotilla being something that they're against, but she doesn't know that because she's already labeled him. 

It goes against her character, which is much more understanding.

Like I said, this was before I got to know him better. At first I thought he was like Miranda, and he thought Cerberus could do no wrong. When I learned why he actually joined Cerberus, I felt bad for judging him too quickly. Also, thanks to Pel and the Hades' Dogs questline in ME1 I hate all Cerberus members by default. Doesn't mean I can't grow to understand their motives. (The Cerberus members, not Cerberus itself. The organization can go die in a fire.)

But you just stumbled into my whole point.  We as the player are supposed to judge Jacob and Cerberus as a whole before we know what's going on.  Its what people do.

Tali is supposed to be different.  She has been discriminated all her life, and everywhere else in the game, she is perfectly understanding.  She has every reason to hate Cerberus, but her normal method of thinking would be to see if Jacob was really a bad person before judging.  Part of the reason that I like her is that she takes a situation that would sour me and most people on the world around me, and she stays upbeat and openminded. 

She almost got assassinated by Fist with that attitude. Shepard taught her well.

[Phil725]

Goat_Shepard wrote...

Phil725 wrote...

Simon9one wrote...
*snip*
She was Quarian by birth, not by choice.

And everyone has heard of Cerberus' dark past.  She saw Jacob as soneone willing to join an organization she hadn't heard a single good thing about.

She is still judging without knowing all the facts.  Jacob joined Cerberus as a last resort because the Alliance was limiting him (at least I think thats the story.)  He didn't join because he was a quarian hating human supremecist. 

But to the point that she hadn't heard anything good about Cerberus, the same is true for quarians.  We hear all kinds of rumors about the quarians, about them being cyborgs and stuff.  It seems to me that there are plenty of people who know that the quarians invented the geth, and thats all.  Its wrong to judge people before you get the whole story.  No exceptions.

"I work for you, not Cerberus". She doesn't dislike Jacob, she wants Jacob and Cerby to know she's there for Shepard.
*snip*
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    

I'll be honest, I haven't seen the scene in a while, but I recall a rather large vibe of dislike towards Jacob from Tali.  She could very easily say she doesn't trust Cerberus without judging Jacob in the meantime.  It would be different if Jacob wasn't openly trying to be nice.

[Jake71887]

runescapeguy9 wrote...

Jake71887 wrote...
I got this far before deeming that I'd messed it up beyond repair

Looks fine.

meh, I'm not happy with it.. Also couldn't giure out who the hell's ont he table.. Jacob... Zaeed?

[Azint]

Jake71887 wrote...

runescapeguy9 wrote...

Jake71887 wrote...
I got this far before deeming that I'd messed it up beyond repair

Looks fine.

meh, I'm not happy with it.. Also couldn't giure out who the hell's ont he table.. Jacob... Zaeed?

Some poor bastard who just happened to be in the way. The Normandy crew parties hard.

Modifié par Azint, 05 avril 2010 - 03:33 .

[Ormagodenator]

Mukora wrote...

Ormagodenator wrote...

I KNEW IT,
when I was playing ME2 the whole time I was thinking,
"please don't have gay LI like in DA"

*coughhomophobecough*

it has nothing to do with that,
it's just that if I accidentaly got Jacob as a LI then I would not have Tali as my LI.

[Jake71887]

Mukora wrote...

Ormagodenator wrote...

it has nothing to do with that,
it's just that if I accidentaly got Jacob as a LI then I would not have Tali as my LI.

Couldn't you just dump him if that happened?

Apparently he just can't turn down gay dudes

[Lividity Jones]

Simon9one wrote...

I hate making comparisons of this sort...but in this case, it may be appropriate.
Think of cerberus as the Ku Klux Klan.
Common knowledge states that Cerberus has done nothing but evil.  And when you've seen them set up thresher maw attacks on alliance soldiers, do experiments with thorian creepers and rachni, and engage in acts of terrorism, that only enforces the preconception.
The KKK is similar.  I can't think of a single good thing they've done (and no, this is not up for debate). 

If I saw a Klansman, I wouldn't try to get to know them better.  I wouldn't try to understand their ways.  They would be nothing more than a racist bigot to me.  And that is how Tali sees Cerberus.  They're unethical extremists and terrorists to her, and anyone who joins must share those views.

Quoted for truth. Cerberus is deformation of all that is good in humanity, an amoral and unethical organization that hides behind ideals founded on prejudice and inevitably commits multiple atrocities for one man's profit.

Tali has every reason to refuse siding with Cerberus. It is only because of her loyalty, nay her love of Shepard that she accepts. I think she has earned her judgements.

Modifié par Lividity Jones, 05 avril 2010 - 03:36 .

[Goat_Shepard]

Phil725 wrote...


I'll be honest, I haven't seen the scene in a while, but I recall a rather large vibe of dislike towards Jacob from Tali.  She could very easily say she doesn't trust Cerberus without judging Jacob in the meantime.  It would be different if Jacob wasn't openly trying to be nice.

True. The "don't play nice" was definitely attitude pose worthy, but cmon, if she was nice to everyone she'd be like that pathetically optimistic person you wanna strangle

Wait..typing that didn't feel right ...I'm glad she was b!tchy....and sexy while doing it

[Ormagodenator]

Mukora wrote...

Ormagodenator wrote...

it has nothing to do with that,
it's just that if I accidentaly got Jacob as a LI then I would not have Tali as my LI.

Couldn't you just dump him if that happened?

as I said I just started to play ME2,
I didnt know I could dump a LI

[Azint]

Lividity Jones wrote...

Tali has every reason to refuse siding with Cerberus. It is only because of her loyalty, nay her love of Shepard that she accepts. I think she has earned her judgements.

What if Shepard is female?

[Simon9one]

Lividity Jones wrote...

Simon9one wrote...

I hate making comparisons of this sort...but in this case, it may be appropriate.
Think of cerberus as the Ku Klux Klan.
Common knowledge states that Cerberus has done nothing but evil.  And when you've seen them set up thresher maw attacks on alliance soldiers, do experiments with thorian creepers and rachni, and engage in acts of terrorism, that only enforces the preconception.
The KKK is similar.  I can't think of a single good thing they've done (and no, this is not up for debate). 

If I saw a Klansman, I wouldn't try to get to know them better.  I wouldn't try to understand their ways.  They would be nothing more than a racist bigot to me.  And that is how Tali sees Cerberus.  They're unethical extremists and terrorists to her, and anyone who joins must share those views.

Quoted for truth. Cerberus is deformation of all that is good in humanity, an amoral and unethical organization that hides behind ideals founded on prejudice and inevitably commits multiple atrocities for one man's profit.

Tali has every reason to refuse siding with Cerberus. It is only because of her loyalty, nay her love of Shepard that she accepts. I think she has earned her judgements.

Damn I'm glad I didn't just spend six minutes typing that post for nothing.

[Lividity Jones]

Azint wrote...

Lividity Jones wrote...

Tali has every reason to refuse siding with Cerberus. It is only because of her loyalty, nay her love of Shepard that she accepts. I think she has earned her judgements.

What if Shepard is female?

Alright. Maybe it was the wrong choice of words.

[Phil725]

Simon9one wrote...

Phil725 wrote...

Simon9one wrote...
*snip*

She was Quarian by birth, not by choice.

And everyone has heard of Cerberus' dark past.  She saw Jacob as soneone willing to join an organization she hadn't heard a single good thing about.

She is still judging without knowing all the facts.  Jacob joined Cerberus as a last resort because the Alliance was limiting him (at least I think thats the story.)  He didn't join because he was a quarian hating human supremecist. 

But to the point that she hadn't heard anything good about Cerberus, the same is true for quarians.  We hear all kinds of rumors about the quarians, about them being cyborgs and stuff.  It seems to me that there are plenty of people who know that the quarians invented the geth, and thats all.  Its wrong to judge people before you get the whole story.  No exceptions.

I hate making comparisons of this sort...but in this case, it may be appropriate.
Think of cerberus as the Ku Klux Klan.
Common knowledge states that Cerberus has done nothing but evil.  And when you've seen them set up thresher maw attacks on alliance soldiers, do experiments with thorian creepers and rachni, and engage in acts of terrorism, that only enforces the preconception.
The KKK is similar.  I can't think of a single good thing they've done (and no, this is not up for debate). 

If I saw a Klansman, I wouldn't try to get to know them better.  I wouldn't try to understand their ways.  They would be nothing more than a racist bigot to me.  And that is how Tali sees Cerberus.  They're unethical extremists and terrorists to her, and anyone who joins must share those views.

Again, I'm not arguing that me or you would be all chummy with supremecist groups.  I'm holding Tali to a higher standard than everyone else based on how she acts the rest of the time.  Any person, or really any other quarian would be justified with their remarks, I just see Tali as a person who is normally above that.  Regardless of her feelings towards them, it proves nothing about Jacob's character.

As far as the comparison.  Its fine to hate the KKK.  Their motives are perfectly clear.  Hating everyone involved with them without knowing their motives, what they think of the groups actions as a whole, what led them to joining, or what kind of person they are in general is still judgemental.  Most people will judge by the group alone.  Tali should be above that, and seems to be at all other points in the game.

[Goat_Shepard]

Lividity Jones wrote...

Azint wrote...

Lividity Jones wrote...

Tali has every reason to refuse siding with Cerberus. It is only because of her loyalty, nay her love of Shepard that she accepts. I think she has earned her judgements.

What if Shepard is female?

Alright. Maybe it was the wrong choice of words.

Loyalty works.

[Azint]

Lividity Jones wrote...

Alright. Maybe it was the wrong choice of words.

Bah.

Mukora wrote...

Lesyay for the win.

One can dream. Though I'm not really in that boat. Wait....