137512 réponses à ce sujet

[Goat_Shepard]

Phil725 wrote...

Again, I'm not arguing that me or you would be all chummy with supremecist groups.  I'm holding Tali to a higher standard than everyone else based on how she acts the rest of the time.  Any person, or really any other quarian would be justified with their remarks, I just see Tali as a person who is normally above that.  Regardless of her feelings towards them, it proves nothing about Jacob's character.

As far as the comparison.  Its fine to hate the KKK.  Their motives are perfectly clear.  Hating everyone involved with them without knowing their motives, what they think of the groups actions as a whole, what led them to joining, or what kind of person they are in general is still judgemental.  Most people will judge by the group alone.  Tali should be above that, and seems to be at all other points in the game.

KKK sympathizer! Stone him boys! Stone him to death!

Seriously, cmon, Tali wouldn't join the KKK

lol this is a joke post in hopes of derailing.

[Lividity Jones]

Simon9one wrote...

Lividity Jones wrote...

Simon9one wrote...

I hate making comparisons of this sort...but in this case, it may be appropriate.
Think of cerberus as the Ku Klux Klan.
Common knowledge states that Cerberus has done nothing but evil.  And when you've seen them set up thresher maw attacks on alliance soldiers, do experiments with thorian creepers and rachni, and engage in acts of terrorism, that only enforces the preconception.
The KKK is similar.  I can't think of a single good thing they've done (and no, this is not up for debate). 

If I saw a Klansman, I wouldn't try to get to know them better.  I wouldn't try to understand their ways.  They would be nothing more than a racist bigot to me.  And that is how Tali sees Cerberus.  They're unethical extremists and terrorists to her, and anyone who joins must share those views.

Quoted for truth. Cerberus is deformation of all that is good in humanity, an amoral and unethical organization that hides behind ideals founded on prejudice and inevitably commits multiple atrocities for one man's profit.

Tali has every reason to refuse siding with Cerberus. It is only because of her loyalty, nay her love of Shepard that she accepts. I think she has earned her judgements.

Damn I'm glad I didn't just spend six minutes typing that post for nothing.

I didn't buy Cerberus' crap for a second.

[Phil725]

Goat_Shepard wrote...

Phil725 wrote...

Mukora wrote...
*snip*
Like I said, this was before I got to know him better. At first I thought he was like Miranda, and he thought Cerberus could do no wrong. When I learned why he actually joined Cerberus, I felt bad for judging him too quickly. Also, thanks to Pel and the Hades' Dogs questline in ME1 I hate all Cerberus members by default. Doesn't mean I can't grow to understand their motives. (The Cerberus members, not Cerberus itself. The organization can go die in a fire.)

But you just stumbled into my whole point.  We as the player are supposed to judge Jacob and Cerberus as a whole before we know what's going on.  Its what people do.

Tali is supposed to be different.  She has been discriminated all her life, and everywhere else in the game, she is perfectly understanding.  She has every reason to hate Cerberus, but her normal method of thinking would be to see if Jacob was really a bad person before judging.  Part of the reason that I like her is that she takes a situation that would sour me and most people on the world around me, and she stays upbeat and openminded. 

She almost got assassinated by Fist with that attitude. Shepard taught her well.

What has Shepard taught her?  All sleezy bar owners are working for Saren and shouldn't be trusted?  There would be no legitimate prejudice against Fist that would save her really.  That situation was a result of her naivity as a young woman at the beginning of her journey. 

To tie it in with the argument, I'm not saying she should brohug Jacob right away, just that being openly hostile doesn't help.

[kyozion66]

DrathanGervaise wrote...

Azint wrote...

What if Shepard is female?

*snip*

lol, wow I picked the perfect time to wander back into the thread

[Azint]

DrathanGervaise wrote...

Azint wrote...

What if Shepard is female?

*snip*

I found one.

[Phil725]

Goat_Shepard wrote...
*snip*

KKK sympathizer! Stone him boys! Stone him to death!

Seriously, cmon, Tali wouldn't join the KKK

lol this is a joke post in hopes of derailing.

derailing on topic arguements?  We're discussing Tali.  This is a once a month occurance

[Azint]

Mukora wrote...

Azint wrote...

Mukora wrote...

Lesyay for the win.

One can dream. Though I'm not really in that boat. Wait....

Lesyay- The use of suggestive dialogue between two female characters, whether intentional or not, that will cause people to write girl-on-girl fanfics about the characters. Does not mean that the characters are actually lesbians.

I don't exactly understand how one can be "In that boat"

I know...
Les Yay

TV Tropes Will Ruin Your Life /TV Tropes Will Enhance Your Life

[LonsomeAlex417]

DrathanGervaise wrote...

"Ah yes...

Mukora wrote...

Lesyay- The use of suggestive dialogue between two female characters, whether intentional or not, that will cause people to write girl-on-girl fanfics about the characters. Does not mean that the characters are actually lesbians.

we have dismissed these claims."

The air quotes strike again....

[Grif101]

starwarschewy wrote...

 im back:wizard:

Miss me?

[Simon9one]

Phil725 wrote...

Simon9one wrote...

Phil725 wrote...

Simon9one wrote...
*snip*

She was Quarian by birth, not by choice.

And everyone has heard of Cerberus' dark past.  She saw Jacob as soneone willing to join an organization she hadn't heard a single good thing about.

She is still judging without knowing all the facts.  Jacob joined Cerberus as a last resort because the Alliance was limiting him (at least I think thats the story.)  He didn't join because he was a quarian hating human supremecist. 

But to the point that she hadn't heard anything good about Cerberus, the same is true for quarians.  We hear all kinds of rumors about the quarians, about them being cyborgs and stuff.  It seems to me that there are plenty of people who know that the quarians invented the geth, and thats all.  Its wrong to judge people before you get the whole story.  No exceptions.

I hate making comparisons of this sort...but in this case, it may be appropriate.
Think of cerberus as the Ku Klux Klan.
Common knowledge states that Cerberus has done nothing but evil.  And when you've seen them set up thresher maw attacks on alliance soldiers, do experiments with thorian creepers and rachni, and engage in acts of terrorism, that only enforces the preconception.
The KKK is similar.  I can't think of a single good thing they've done (and no, this is not up for debate). 

If I saw a Klansman, I wouldn't try to get to know them better.  I wouldn't try to understand their ways.  They would be nothing more than a racist bigot to me.  And that is how Tali sees Cerberus.  They're unethical extremists and terrorists to her, and anyone who joins must share those views.

Again, I'm not arguing that me or you would be all chummy with supremecist groups.  I'm holding Tali to a higher standard than everyone else based on how she acts the rest of the time.  Any person, or really any other quarian would be justified with their remarks, I just see Tali as a person who is normally above that.  Regardless of her feelings towards them, it proves nothing about Jacob's character.

As far as the comparison.  Its fine to hate the KKK.  Their motives are perfectly clear.  Hating everyone involved with them without knowing their motives, what they think of the groups actions as a whole, what led them to joining, or what kind of person they are in general is still judgemental.  Most people will judge by the group alone.  Tali should be above that, and seems to be at all other points in the game.

If you're holding Tali to a higher standard, then I fully understand your argument. 
I was holding her to a standard which I believe to be closer to the average person. 

I still think that she's only Quarian, and bound to make mistakes and lapses in judgement.  Even if most of the time she is great and compassionate and understanding.

[Jake71887]

kyozion66 wrote...

DrathanGervaise wrote...

Azint wrote...

What if Shepard is female?

*snip*

lol, wow I picked the perfect time to wander back into the thread

Hello supposed female

[Lividity Jones]

Jake71887 wrote...

kyozion66 wrote...

DrathanGervaise wrote...

Azint wrote...

What if Shepard is female?

*snip*

lol, wow I picked the perfect time to wander back into the thread

Hello supposed female

Why does Shepard look like Suki?

[Azint]

Lividity Jones wrote...

Why does Shepard look like Suki?

I've always wondered the saem thing...

[Goat_Shepard]

DrathanGervaise wrote...

"Ah yes...

Mukora
wrote...

Lesyay- The use of suggestive dialogue between two
female characters, whether intentional or not, that will cause people to
write girl-on-girl fanfics about the characters. Does not mean that the
characters are actually lesbians.

we have
dismissed these claims."

Platonic love can
exist between two grown females (or two grown men [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/wink.png[/smilie])

Phil725 wrote...

Goat_Shepard wrote...
*snip*

KKK sympathizer! Stone him boys! Stone him to death!

Seriously, cmon, Tali wouldn't join the KKK

lol this is a joke post in hopes of derailing.

derailing on topic arguements?  We're discussing Tali.  This is a once a month occurance

My post is where the discussion ends up [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/wink.png[/smilie] and Tali
would not join the KKK [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/ninja.png[/smilie] lol
disturbing thought.

[Jake71887]

Lividity Jones wrote...

Jake71887 wrote...

kyozion66 wrote...

DrathanGervaise wrote...

Azint wrote...

What if Shepard is female?

*snip*

lol, wow I picked the perfect time to wander back into the thread

Hello supposed female

Why does Shepard look like Suki?

Dunno who Suki is, but the whole thing reminds me too much of Disney

[Lividity Jones]

DrathanGervaise wrote...

Lividity Jones wrote...

Why does Shepard look like Suki?

You're banned for bringing Nickelodeon into this.

It's not my fault Viacom gave Avatar to Nick.