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[Zafflesia]

I actually never drew any parallels between Saren and "renegade" Garrus. If I were in his position, I can't say that I wouldn't do the same thing, but I never enjoy seeing friends obsessed with getting even.

[Ms Cherissa]

Nissun wrote...
Why do you guys think he'll become another Saren just by killing Sidonis?

I think it's because of the conversation in ME1 (a convo I think is pretty telling about the father/son dynamic in Clan Vakarian) where Garrus says his father talked him out of becoming a Spectre because Papa Vakarian was afraid Garrus would end up like Saren. Sounds to me like even 12-15 years prior to ME1, Saren's savage personality was known to them in C-Sec. (For those who think of Saren as a sympathetic villain, I'd suggest reading the novel - he's portrayed as being rotten to the core from the start. I suspect he just used his grief over his brother's death as an excuse to be an @ssh@t.)

[Kim Shepard]

My Shepards will all let Garrus kill Sidonis. Some of them will make Sidonis talk for a while first (they think it will give Garrus more peace of mind that way), but my main Shepard moved out of the way the first time Garrus told her to. xD I thought she looked way too suspicious though, looking like she was just waiting for it to happen. In my mind, she wouldn't have seemed suspicious at all.



I skimmed through Revelation (just got it recently, so I read all the parts I could find about Saren), and I thought it was awesome. But Saren does fit right in with my favorite character type.

[Sialater]

If you hadn't come along, Garrus would be dead.



Now, it may be the full bottle of wine I've had, but I'm feeling a lot better about letting Garrus taking the shot with that thought.

[WarlordFil]

My Shepard is about 2/3 paragon to 1/3 Rengade.

I instinctively had her let Garrus take the shot on Sidonis.

If one of my *most trusted team members* tells me *repeatedly* that Sidonis needs to die...who am I to argue? I mean, do I trust him or not?

It would be different if, as in Zaeed's loyalty mission, Garrus had to choose between rescuing an innocent or shooting Sidonis. In that case I can justify not letting him take the shot.

I would even argue that it would be different if it was someone who was an unknown quantity (like Grunt) or had been known to have issues (like Jack).

One can argue that by not letting Shepard pemit Garrus to shoot Sidonis, she's reminding Garrus about his morality, values, etc. and I used this explanation in a fanfic.

But I just found the whole thing waaay too patronizing for me to be comfortable with it (my renegade MShep didn't let him take the shot just so I could see how it would play out). Garrus isn't a newbie, and if you take your sniper out to shoot, you don't stand in his way in the last minute--if Shepard didn't agree with it she should have put a stop to it long before Sidonis was in scope. To my mind, stopping Garrus at that point shows a lack of faith in your own team member.

Modifié par WarlordFil, 14 mars 2010 - 03:27 .

[Kim Shepard]

Sialater wrote...

If you hadn't come along, Garrus would be dead.

Now, it may be the full bottle of wine I've had, but I'm feeling a lot better about letting Garrus taking the shot with that thought.

Exactly. And if that happened, my Shepards would all have to team up from their separate save files and go after Sidonis together. He'd never stand a chance.

My Sole Survivors can really sympathize with Garrus on this one. Most of them wanted revenge against Cerberus for what happened to their squad, and it seems normal to them that Garrus would want to revenge the death of his squad too.

[ELE08]

My paragon bar is full, but I let Garrus take the shot every time.  From an RP perspective my Shepard has a very black and white view of justice (ie she's a chaotic good vigilante.  If she were real she'd be a complete sociopath.)  I let Garrus kill Saleon in ME1 and I shot Shialla/Fist/Asari on Virmire.  If I stopped him this one time it would feel super hypocritical.

As Garrus said, it would be a quick death and more than Sidonis deserved.  Regardless of if he sold the squad out because he was a coward or was threatened, he's still guilty.

As far as letting Sidonis live not for his own sake, but for Garrus's conscience, I felt like he took care of it and moved on.  No more vengeance. Done deal. 

I guess I can see both sides though.

[ELE08]

WarlordFil wrote...

If one of my *most trusted team members* tells me *repeatedly* that Sidonis needs to die...who am I to argue? I mean, do I trust him or not?

But I just found the whole thing waaay too patronizing for me to be comfortable with it (my renegade MShep didn't let him take the shot just so I could see how it would play out). Garrus isn't a newbie, and if you take your sniper out to shoot, you don't stand in his way in the last minute--if Shepard didn't agree with it she should have put a stop to it long before Sidonis was in scope. To my mind, stopping Garrus at that point shows a lack of faith in your own team member.

Agree with this completely.  Garrus has come into his own and you're not really his mentor anymore.  Either accept him and back him up completely or tell him straight out "I'm not supporting you in this."  Granted the game won't let you.  But whatev.  Actually can you refuse his quest?

[Kim Shepard]

I think Shepard can refuse everyone's loyalty missions... I never choose those options, but I think there's a dialogue option that says "we don't have time for this" or something like that. xD

[enormousmoonboots]

I don't let him kill Sidonis because...
1) you get more dialog out of Garrus by saving him
2) Sidonis isn't worth killing; if he'd betrayed Garrus and co. out of greed or malice, I'd have airlocked him myself. But executing a helpless man who can't stand what he did?
3) It's most beneficial for Garrus to learn about shades of gray, and that people do bad things for reasons other than 'to be bad'. If you talked to Jaroth, the Eclipse salarian boss, the reason he's so pissed at Garrus is that Garrus killed his brother. If you talk to Garrus about it, he's like 'I killed that guy's lieutenant and now he mad lol'. I'm not arguing that the mercs were nice people or anything, but can any of you really tell me that if someone murdered your brother/sister/someone else you cared deeply about, regardless of if they had a reason or not, you wouldn't try to destroy them?

[Cerrydd]

As I've said before (don't know if it was in this tread or the previous one): if there was an "it's your call, Garrus"-option, I would've chosen that one. But not before talking to Sidonis first. I don't want Garrus to become a copy of me or lecture and question everything he does, but I do want to make him think. I only heard Garrus' side of the story and I wanted to find out what Sidonis had to say. Sure, he's a coward and he's pretty dumb to mess around with our badass turian, but I didn't see any evil in him. If I could say, "Ok Garrus, you heard it. What do you want?" and Garrus still wanted to kill him, I'd be fine with it. It's his revenge, not mine. But there isn't such an option, so I talked him out of it. Afterwards, Garrus says that he could still see good in Sidonis. I don't know if he says that just to please his commander, but to me it sounded like hearing Sidonis' side of the story really got him thinking more about if this is what he really wanted.

Besides, I'm very curious how Sidonis will make it up to Garrus in ME3. If Bioware won't forget about him...

[ELE08]

Cerrydd wrote...

As I've said before (don't know if it was in this tread or the previous one): if there was an "it's your call, Garrus"-option, I would've chosen that one. But not before talking to Sidonis first. I don't want Garrus to become a copy of me or lecture and question everything he does, but I do want to make him think. I only heard Garrus' side of the story and I wanted to find out what Sidonis had to say. Sure, he's a coward and he's pretty dumb to mess around with our badass turian, but I didn't see any evil in him. If I could say, "Ok Garrus, you heard it. What do you want?" and Garrus still wanted to kill him, I'd be fine with it. It's his revenge, not mine. But there isn't such an option, so I talked him out of it. Afterwards, Garrus says that he could still see good in Sidonis. I don't know if he says that just to please his commander, but to me it sounded like hearing Sidonis' side of the story really got him thinking more about if this is what he really wanted.

Besides, I'm very curious how Sidonis will make it up to Garrus in ME3. If Bioware won't forget about him...

I think since it's a game the player is going to get a good outcome either way.  The universe isn't preset to a certain preference (hence why there can be both paragon and renegade players.)  If you went renegade Garrus turns out better for it, if you went paragon Garrus turns out better for it.

Reminds me of a fan fic I read where Shepard went the paragon route and Garrus completely flipped out "OMG how could you do this to meeee RAWR!"  Obviously that wouldn't go over well in game...

[WarlordFil]

Yes, you can refuse the loyalty missions in conversation for at least some characters or you can just never go to the planets where they are, but it's kind of like leaving Grunt in the tank or never picking up Wrex or Garrus in ME1 - you lose a big chunk of the game for making a choice like that.



The Normandy *always* has time to find Jack's childhood teddybear, help Tali's aunt plant her garden and throw spitballs at the kid who kicked Garrus' puppy.

[Cerrydd]

enormousmoonboots wrote...

I don't let him kill Sidonis because...
1) you get more dialog out of Garrus by saving him
2) Sidonis isn't worth killing; if he'd betrayed Garrus and co. out of greed or malice, I'd have airlocked him myself. But executing a helpless man who can't stand what he did?
3) It's most beneficial for Garrus to learn about shades of gray, and that people do bad things for reasons other than 'to be bad'. If you talked to Jaroth, the Eclipse salarian boss, the reason he's so pissed at Garrus is that Garrus killed his brother. If you talk to Garrus about it, he's like 'I killed that guy's lieutenant and now he mad lol'. I'm not arguing that the mercs were nice people or anything, but can any of you really tell me that if someone murdered your brother/sister/someone else you cared deeply about, regardless of if they had a reason or not, you wouldn't try to destroy them?

Yes. This. And in an extension to #1):



You get to touch his shoulder!

[enormousmoonboots]

Cerrydd wrote...

As I've said before (don't know if it was in this tread or the previous one): if there was an "it's your call, Garrus"-option, I would've chosen that one. But not before talking to Sidonis first. I don't want Garrus to become a copy of me or lecture and question everything he does, but I do want to make him think. I only heard Garrus' side of the story and I wanted to find out what Sidonis had to say. Sure, he's a coward and he's pretty dumb to mess around with our badass turian, but I didn't see any evil in him. If I could say, "Ok Garrus, you heard it. What do you want?" and Garrus still wanted to kill him, I'd be fine with it. It's his revenge, not mine. But there isn't such an option, so I talked him out of it. Afterwards, Garrus says that he could still see good in Sidonis. I don't know if he says that just to please his commander, but to me it sounded like hearing Sidonis' side of the story really got him thinking more about if this is what he really wanted.

Besides, I'm very curious how Sidonis will make it up to Garrus in ME3. If Bioware won't forget about him...

I figure the 'talking him out of it' option IS letting him decide for himself; after all, he could have shot Sidonis at any time after you start walking away, and he doesn't. I really did expect him to still put one in the back of Sidonis's head the minute he turned around, though.

[Zafflesia]

enormousmoonboots wrote...

 If you talked to Jaroth, the Eclipse salarian boss, the reason he's so pissed at Garrus is that Garrus killed his brother. If you talk to Garrus about it, he's like 'I killed that guy's lieutenant and now he mad lol'. I'm not arguing that the mercs were nice people or anything, but can any of you really tell me that if someone murdered your brother/sister/someone else you cared deeply about, regardless of if they had a reason or not, you wouldn't try to destroy them?

Yeah, I also thought about that when replaying his recruitment mission. Plus I'm really curious to see what Sidonis does in ME3.

[Mr.BlazenGlazen]

enormousmoonboots wrote...

I don't let him kill Sidonis because...
1) you get more dialog out of Garrus by saving him
2) Sidonis isn't worth killing; if he'd betrayed Garrus and co. out of greed or malice, I'd have airlocked him myself. But executing a helpless man who can't stand what he did?
3) It's most beneficial for Garrus to learn about shades of gray, and that people do bad things for reasons other than 'to be bad'. If you talked to Jaroth, the Eclipse salarian boss, the reason he's so pissed at Garrus is that Garrus killed his brother. If you talk to Garrus about it, he's like 'I killed that guy's lieutenant and now he mad lol'. I'm not arguing that the mercs were nice people or anything, but can any of you really tell me that if someone murdered your brother/sister/someone else you cared deeply about, regardless of if they had a reason or not, you wouldn't try to destroy them?

Well, those mercs where a bunch of scum and pricks anyway, but i get your point. I am trying to put a little light into garrus's gloomy and dark state of mind towards life. Hopefully it worked by saving sidonis. 

[Cerrydd]

ELE08 wrote...

Cerrydd wrote...
Afterwards, Garrus says that he could still see good in Sidonis. I don't know if he says that just to please his commander, but to me it sounded like hearing Sidonis' side of the story really got him thinking more about if this is what he really wanted.

Besides, I'm very curious how Sidonis will make it up to Garrus in ME3. If Bioware won't forget about him...

I think since it's a game the player is going to get a good outcome either way.  The universe isn't preset to a certain preference (hence why there can be both paragon and renegade players.)  If you went renegade Garrus turns out better for it, if you went paragon Garrus turns out better for it.

True, true. But I like to believe I got my message across .

enormousmoonboots wrote...

I figure the 'talking him out of it' option IS letting him decide for
himself; after all, he could have shot Sidonis at any time after you
start walking away, and he doesn't. I really did expect him to still
put one in the back of Sidonis's head the minute he turned around,
though.

Maybe it is, but it still felt like I was telling Garrus to 'listen to me because I know better'. I too expected Sidonis to still get a headshot after turning around.

I'm all about second chances, even if it comes biting me in the @ss after a while. (Elnora, drama queen asari ****, I'm looking at you). If Sidonis screws up a second time in ME3 he'll be dead either way.

[Gar_Logan]

Cerrydd wrote...
Maybe it is, but it still felt like I was telling Garrus to 'listen to me because I know better'.

I know what you mean...but I remember thinking. When Garrus mentioned how he didn't know what to do with "grey," how he was so used to seeing with black and white...Well, in my opinion, with grey, you do what you know is right. Garrus acting based on his anger towards what happened, not what would actually benefit himself or anyone else. In this case, Shepard does know what's best, and is doing his/her best to make sure Garrus knows it too.

Also, Garrus was too close to the mark, he should have picked a point MUCH farther away. I know it was a weird field of view shot but it made him look like he was sitting on a garage literally across the street from Sidonis. Made it look weird.

Modifié par Gar_Logan, 14 mars 2010 - 04:20 .

[Kim Shepard]

Cerrydd wrote...

I'm all about second chances, even if it comes biting me in the @ss after a while. (Elnora, drama queen asari ****, I'm looking at you). If Sidonis screws up a second time in ME3 he'll be dead either way.

I'm almost expecting something like this for that asari who likes to show up in krogan breeding facilities. xD My main Shepard told her to run if she wanted to escape the explosion (and got that adorable line from Garrus - "You enjoyed that, Commander."), but after seeing her again in ME2, she wonders if it was a bad idea to let the asari get away.

People who betray Garrus don't get away with it though. She hates traitors.

[Timerider42]

Some of the Garrus Advice URLs on the front page are broken.

[Marilla Eldriana]

The conversation about whether to let Sidonis live is interesting enough that I've decided to delurk.  With my main Shepard who romanced Garrus, she let him take the shot.  She's a renegade Colonist/Ruthless character, also known as the "I REALLY HATE BATARIANS" background .  I totally imagine her as being racist towards batarians, and killing all the batarians at Torfan for revenge because of Mindoir.  So, she could easily understand Garrus and his desire for revenge and she would have felt really hypocritical if she had stopped him.  Plus, she would have done the same thing if someone betrayed her whole squad and got them killed. 

I also can't really imagine Garrus ever becoming like Saren, either.  Garrus cares too much about helping people.  Even on Omega, he was focused on making Omega a better place by killing mercenaries who were hurting innocent people.  Yeah, he's advocated for things like killing Saleon even though he had innocent people on his ship...but Shepard herself can do similar things.  In BDtS, my Shepards always let the hostages die to stop Balak and nobody talks about Shepard becoming Saren because she's still the hero of the story.

And wow, this post ended up being a lot longer than I expected.

[Sialater]

The difference between Saleon and Sidonis is that Saleon was professional: Garrus MADE it personal.

Sidonis was and always will be personal. Plus, if Shep hadn't show up... how much longer would Archangel have held out?  And WE'D be looking for revenge on Sidonis for Garrus.

In BDtS, my Shepards always let the hostages die to stop Balak and nobody talks about Shepard becoming Saren because she's still the hero of the story.

Actually: She is Saren. Think about it: geth army, krogan cure, rachni army, asari matriarch on HER side.

And those are the paragon choices.

But, she's doing it better.

Modifié par Sialater, 14 mars 2010 - 05:01 .

[Marilla Eldriana]

Sialater wrote...

Actually: She is Saren. Think about it: geth army, krogan cure, rachni army, asari matriarch on HER side.

And those are the paragon choices.

But, she's doing it better.

My main Shepard is renegade, so she doesn't have the krogan cure, a rachni army, or an asari matriarch.  Amusingly enough, the renegade Shepard is less like Saren than the paragon one. 

[Mr.BlazenGlazen]

Sialater wrote...

The difference between Saleon and Sidonis is that Saleon was professional: Garrus MADE it personal.

Sidonis was and always will be personal. Plus, if Shep hadn't show up... how much longer would Archangel have held out?  And WE'D be looking for revenge on Sidonis for Garrus.

In BDtS, my Shepards always let the hostages die to stop Balak and nobody talks about Shepard becoming Saren because she's still the hero of the story.

Actually: She is Saren. Think about it: geth army, krogan cure, rachni army, asari matriarch on HER side.

And those are the paragon choices.

But, she's doing it better.

Last time i checked, saren wanted all of humanity destroyed, and destroy the citadel, and to bring back the reapers to wipe out all galactic life.....similar strategies, not the same person.