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[Collider]

Garrus doesn't actually get that much hate though. From what I've seen, anyway.

[Mr.BlazenGlazen]

Collider wrote...

Garrus doesn't actually get that much hate though. From what I've seen, anyway.

Well, some polls say otherwise unfortunatley. Only from the forums though in real life people actually like garrus.

[Azint]

Ray Joel Oh wrote...

I think for me it helped that they weren't presented to me as romanceable. Like, meeting Ashley, Kaiden, and Liara, I just thought "Okay, I will make this work. I will be attracted to them." But it just never really clicked beyond the satisfaction of knowing I'd made all the right conversation choices and gotten some nice-looking folks to get naked. I felt kind of like I was doing the motions and just getting from A to B to C in the relationships. So meanwhile I'm getting to know Garrus, Tali, and Wrex, learning about their crazy alien cultures (and thinking the scary cat-beetle one is kind of suave and has a really sexy voice (not that it would ever go anywhere, THAT WOULD BE CRAZY)), and I ended up only hanging out with the people I am made to be in love with on the ship. I imagine the fans of the first game's LIs had kind of the equal and opposite experience, knowing and resenting the characters they are meant to want to get with while the people they do want to get with are no longer to be got. And that makes for a lot of people with a lot to say about what bad and whiny characters so and so are.

The main reasons I did not really connect with Ash, Kaiden or Liara were because of the romances. I do like them, but I would not romance them, also I disliked how the romances were done in ME1. I could not just talk to Ash without ending up in a relationship I did not ask for, Liara the same way, talking to Kaiden was easy because it came off as buddy-buddy.

Meanwhile I really looked forward to speaking to the other half of the squad, I really enjoyed the talks and learning about the alien cultures, that's also when I first became really fond of Tali. Garrus' talks were interesting because he was still in the middle of his character developement, loose-cannon or play it straight. Because their was no romance with them in the first game they really came off as friends and were very refreshing characters, they even seemed more human than most of the humans you meet in-game. Come Mass Effect 2, they both go through a good amount of developement and I really see how great of characters they have become.

[Ray Joel Oh]

Collider wrote...

Garrus doesn't actually get that much
hate though. From what I've seen, anyway.

Yeah, he really doesn't, I'm just saying that that's what I've gathered from the handful of folks I've seen who do actively dislike the character. More are ambivalent, and maybe even more than that like him (though often not as much as they like some other character).

Edit:  I should quote more.

Modifié par Ray Joel Oh, 22 avril 2010 - 06:33 .

[Azint]

I honestly have seen very little Garrus hate anywhere, not even on this forum.

[Collider]

I have to agree with Azint about the Ashley romance. I was just being nice to her and bam, she's talking about how wild the sex will be. And Liara comes on to you the first conversation you have with her.

[Ray Joel Oh]

Yeah, it keeps getting said, but Bioware needs more "just friends" options. They did that pretty well in Dragon Age.

Edit: though listen to me being all demanding when they're pretty much the only game company right now writing in these sorts of open-ended and engaging friendships and relationships.

Modifié par Ray Joel Oh, 22 avril 2010 - 06:40 .

[Azint]

Ray Joel Oh wrote...

Yeah, it keeps getting said, but Bioware needs more "just friends" options. They did that pretty well in Dragon Age.

Edit: though listen to me being all demanding when they're pretty much the only game company right now writing in these sorts of open-ended and engaging friendships and relationships.

They did a much better job about that in ME2 than in the first game.

[aznsoisauce]

Collider wrote...

I'm going to go with what Ray said and that people who dislike the characters will try to find faults and exaggerate them. For some reason people don't like these characters and then ridiculously accusing them of whining or other inane things.

I know this isn't the Ashley support thread, but her "faults" are blown way out of proportion by her haters. They peg her as a bible thumper and racist (speciesist? I don't really care) but she's hardly a hardcore christian and she's just bitter about her grand father.

And I agree with the complaints here about calling any of the ME characters "whiny." Clearly, these people have not played enough JRPGs. Hell, Sims are the most whiny video game characters of all time, if they can even be considered as such.

[Ray Joel Oh]

Azint wrote...

Ray Joel Oh wrote...

Yeah, it
keeps getting said, but Bioware needs more "just friends" options. They
did that pretty well in Dragon Age.

Edit: though listen to me
being all demanding when they're pretty much the only game company right
now writing in these sorts of open-ended and engaging friendships and
relationships.

They did a much better job about that in
ME2 than in the first game.

Yeah, it is interesting though to note that that was a turn off for some players, apparently. I read one girl complain that she thought the guy should be making the first move so she feels attractive. I don't have that problem, but I guess it's good that they offer the pursuer option to some and the pursued option to others.

Modifié par Ray Joel Oh, 22 avril 2010 - 06:45 .

[Collider]

I was under the impression that all of the ME2 femshep romances were player initiated rather than the male character hitting on them first.

[Azint]

aznsoisauce wrote...

I know this isn't the Ashley support thread, but her "faults" are blown way out of proportion by her haters. They peg her as a bible thumper and racist (speciesist? I don't really care) but she's hardly a hardcore christian and she's just bitter about her grand father.

And I agree with the complaints here about calling any of the ME characters "whiny." Clearly, these people have not played enough JRPGs. Hell, Sims are the most whiny video game characters of all time, if they can even be considered as such.

I'm playing FFXIII.

[drunken pyromaniac]

aznsoisauce wrote...

I know this isn't the Ashley support thread, but her "faults" are blown way out of proportion by her haters. They peg her as a bible thumper and racist (speciesist? I don't really care) but she's hardly a hardcore christian and she's just bitter about her grand father.

And I agree with the complaints here about calling any of the ME characters "whiny." Clearly, these people have not played enough JRPGs. Hell, Sims are the most whiny video game characters of all time, if they can even be considered as such.

Thank you! I didn't want to get in an argument with the people here but I disagreed with the characterization of her as racist.

[Collider]

aznsoisauce wrote...

Collider wrote...

I'm going to go with what Ray said and that people who dislike the characters will try to find faults and exaggerate them. For some reason people don't like these characters and then ridiculously accusing them of whining or other inane things.

I know this isn't the Ashley support thread, but her "faults" are blown way out of proportion by her haters. They peg her as a bible thumper and racist (speciesist? I don't really care) but she's hardly a hardcore christian and she's just bitter about her grand father.

It's really funny that they call her a bible thumper and Christian considering how she doesn't even say what her religion is. Just that she believes in God and heaven, neither of which are exclusive to even the Abrahamic religions.

I do think that one can disagree with her views on aliens on the Normandy, but they do tend to blow it out of proportion.

[Ray Joel Oh]

aznsoisauce wrote...

Collider wrote...

I'm going to go with what Ray said and that people who dislike the characters will try to find faults and exaggerate them. For some reason people don't like these characters and then ridiculously accusing them of whining or other inane things.

I know this isn't the Ashley support thread, but her "faults" are blown way out of proportion by her haters. They peg her as a bible thumper and racist (speciesist? I don't really care) but she's hardly a hardcore christian and she's just bitter about her grand father.

And I agree with the complaints here about calling any of the ME characters "whiny." Clearly, these people have not played enough JRPGs. Hell, Sims are the most whiny video game characters of all time, if they can even be considered as such.

I read some of an article where a dev talked about that issue with her character.  Since she is presented one way at first and revealed to be another way the more you get to know her, people are quick to dismiss her/hate her/Virmire her.  It's only when you take her along with you in elevators and conversations (and if you're a guy, romance her) that you can appreciate her better.  I guess video games, particularly video games with a wide selection of people to hang out with, don't have a lot of room to bely a character's depth early on.

[aznsoisauce]

Collider wrote...

I have to agree with Azint about the Ashley romance. I was just being nice to her and bam, she's talking about how wild the sex will be. And Liara comes on to you the first conversation you have with her.

I remember my first male playthrough. I don't remember the specific conversation, but one of the options was "I'm interested." I'll admit to being pretty daft about it then, but I didn't think he was referring to being romantically interested. At the time I was just thinking "She stopped talking...I'm still interested in your stories, please tell me more." Definitely my bad.

But...yeah. Liara. Every time I get to that first conversation, I always sum it up to "I wanna touch you, Shepard." Oh, Liara, you tease.

[Ray Joel Oh]

Collider wrote...

I was under the impression that all of the ME2 femshep romances were player initiated rather than the male character hitting on them first.

Yeah they are, that's something somebody was complaining about, surprisingly enough.  She wanted the male character to hit on her so she would feel more desirable.  She held that as a weakness of the ME2 romances that you were expected to take the reigns. :\\

Edit: so what I meant was, if you want to be pursued, you have the romances of the first game.  If you like to be the pursuer, you have the romances of the second game.

Modifié par Ray Joel Oh, 22 avril 2010 - 06:55 .

[Azint]

drunken pyromaniac wrote...

aznsoisauce wrote...

I know this isn't the Ashley support thread, but her "faults" are blown way out of proportion by her haters. They peg her as a bible thumper and racist (speciesist? I don't really care) but she's hardly a hardcore christian and she's just bitter about her grand father.

And I agree with the complaints here about calling any of the ME characters "whiny." Clearly, these people have not played enough JRPGs. Hell, Sims are the most whiny video game characters of all time, if they can even be considered as such.

Thank you! I didn't want to get in an argument with the people here but I disagreed with the characterization of her as racist.

Most people don't care to analyze another perspective.

Haters gonna hate.

[aznsoisauce]

Azint wrote...

aznsoisauce wrote...

I know this isn't the Ashley support thread, but her "faults" are blown way out of proportion by her haters. They peg her as a bible thumper and racist (speciesist? I don't really care) but she's hardly a hardcore christian and she's just bitter about her grand father.

And I agree with the complaints here about calling any of the ME characters "whiny." Clearly, these people have not played enough JRPGs. Hell, Sims are the most whiny video game characters of all time, if they can even be considered as such.

I'm playing FFXIII.

Speaking of whiny! Hope, am I right??

...But that doesn't change that I absolutely love that kid. Even if he turned out to be useless for the majority (if not all) of the game.

[Azint]

Ray Joel Oh wrote...

Yeah they are, that's something somebody was complaining about, surprisingly enough.  She wanted the male character to hit on her so she would feel more desirable.  She held that as a weakness of the ME2 romances that you were expected to take the reigns. :\\\\

Edit: so what I meant was, if you want to be pursued, you have the romances of the first game.  If you like to be the pursuer, you have the romances of the second game.

That does sound a bit naive to say...

I want you to love me! Not for me to love you!

[Ray Joel Oh]

Yeeeeaaaaahhh, but I try my hardest not to judge other people's standards of femininity. Though I might have wanted to rant at her about that.

[drunken pyromaniac]

Azint wrote...

drunken pyromaniac wrote...

Thank you! I didn't want to get in an argument with the people here but I disagreed with the characterization of her as racist.

Most people don't care to analyze another perspective.

Haters gonna hate.

Indeed, I'm not attracted to Tali or Garrus and only barely to Liara but I can certainly see why others are attracted to them.

[Azint]

aznsoisauce wrote...

Speaking of whiny! Hope, am I right??

...But that doesn't change that I absolutely love that kid. Even if he turned out to be useless for the majority (if not all) of the game.

Hope was hard to finally like, though I actually do use him a lot. Really, I hated him the first half of the game, but character developement changed him, and my view on him.

Character developement
One of the best tools a writer has.

[Tareos]

Well, I'm the kind of girl who prefers a slow relationship, so when the two femshep LI came on to me faster than I could say "Wait, wait what?", I Virmired Kaidan and left Liara to brood in her lab after I killed her mum. And Ashely ain't too bad. I never understood why people hate her. :[

Garrus was just right for my femshep. I got to know him better in the first game, and by the second game, I felt more comfortable to pop the question.

And also on the topic of whining JRPGs, you guys should try Star Ocean 4. That in and of itself is such a whine fest, it's mind-cringing.

Modifié par Tareos, 22 avril 2010 - 07:07 .

[Azint]

drunken pyromaniac wrote...

Indeed, I'm not attracted to Tali or Garrus and only barely to Liara but I can certainly see why others are attracted to them.

It's all based on preference. I really don't understand why people hate on others for liking something else, it's usually mutual, too. I prefer Tali, you prefer Ashley, people on this thread prefer Garrus.

Let them love.