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[Nivenus]

Kim Shepard wrote...

At the very end of Revelation, Saren has either found Sovereign or at least knows about Sovereign. And he doesn't have a geth arm in his picture on the cover (which makes sense, because that would have happened after Sovereign started to indocrinate him). His face looks the same though, glowing eyes and all. ...I think Saren has been tied with Garrus for my favorite character for a while.

Also, on the topic of the councilors - I would like to see Shepard say "Dismiss this!" to them when the Reapers show up. xD

He is an interesting character. He even has a few pet the dog moments in Revelation. In the end, though, I felt he got shoehorned a bit too much in the book into being ruthless for the sake of being ruthless - the way Anderson says he was in ME1.

[Collider]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

On another note, I have been messing around with ME1 the last few days and took Tali and Garrus for the final run on the citadel, and lo and behold, TALI is the one who suggests I let the council die while Garrus advocates I save them. Makes sense, given the unfair shake the council has given the quarians, but I still found it surprising. I thought Garrus was the more "renegade" of that pair by far. I HATE how squaddies opinions change based on who else is in your squad. It makes it so hard to peg what they actually think. I know Garrus also advocates saving the council if you have Wrex or Ash with you, but that's not saying much. The Tali thing surprised me though.

Did you paragon Garrus?

[enormousmoonboots]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

But Shep doesn't have the cipher and all that whatnot at Saren's trial. The next time she sees the council face to face is after the battle of the citadel. The only reason she makes the connection is because of the data Tali recovered from the geth and that is actually a rather large leap of logic on Shep's part. That bit always bugged the empiricist in me. Heck, *I* half didn't believe Shepard so I didn't really blame the council for taking the conservative side of things. Now ignoring the giant sentient starship that is Sovreign that attacked the Citadel. That's another thing entirely.

And, oh yea, Garrus?

Yeah, when I first played I was frustrated that every single dialog option was CHECK OUT MAH VISIONS and no doubtful/thoughtful choices. Well, I suppose the DM has to do some railroading at the start or the campaign never gets off the ground...

You could see it as the beacon/visions having an effect on Shepard deeper than what we see from the outside, some quality that shakes even the heartless Renegade to her core. I think Shep offhandedly mentions nightmares in a conversation with Liara.

Yes. Garrus.

[Chimervera]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...
I nominate you for sainthood!

I think that's the nicest thing anyone's ever said to me

I'm working on compiling all the facts into one banner, but it'll take a while. It might be done in a few hours, if not I'll have it done tomorrow.

[Collider]

That may either be an instance where Tali takes the renegade approach instead of Garrus, or it's because of slot placement. I think it's probably the latter.

[Collider]

Either way though, Raga, I do agree that I dislike that there always has to be one paragon stance and one renegade stance rather than characters just speaking their minds. Good thing ME2 ditched this.

[Nivenus]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

Nivenus wrote...

Kim Shepard wrote...

At the very end of Revelation, Saren has either found Sovereign or at least knows about Sovereign. And he doesn't have a geth arm in his picture on the cover (which makes sense, because that would have happened after Sovereign started to indocrinate him). His face looks the same though, glowing eyes and all. ...I think Saren has been tied with Garrus for my favorite character for a while.

Also, on the topic of the councilors - I would like to see Shepard say "Dismiss this!" to them when the Reapers show up. xD

He is an interesting character. He even has a few pet the dog moments in Revelation. In the end, though, I felt he got shoehorned a bit too much in the book into being ruthless for the sake of being ruthless - the way Anderson says he was in ME1.

I agree.  In some ways Revelation ruined Saren for me.  Ascension paints Cerberus as very black and white as well, but that's not as bad.  I hate Cerberus.

So does ME1. So I think that's just consistency.

[Collider]

Cerberus has done some pretty terrible things. I hope I'm able to disband/destroy them or at least undermine their influence, in ME3. I'm likely to be able to do one of those from the looks of things.

[Chimervera]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

St. Chimervera...the patron saint of awesome banners, snarky turians, and Clan Vakarian.  How's that?

You're just saying that so I'll finish the banner sooner, aren't you?

[Collider]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

Yea, I actually thought it was rather silly that Bioware tried to paint Cerberus in even a semi-positive light. I admit to being a bit of a moral absolutist so maybe I just have tunnel vision, but those guys seem capitol N nasty to me with almost no exceptions.

I think they wanted the player to be conflicted. On one hand, they are nasty terrorists who have done horrible things. On the other hand, they're doing some good and appear to the only ones able and willing to do so. Those two things for me makes me dislike TIM even more, which is a good thing in this context. Makes for a good villain.

[Lemonwizard]

Kim Shepard wrote...

Well, I don't know how to post a link here, but the picture I was looking at when I first noticed Saren's geth arm was the one where he's sitting in his chair, and he seems to either have a headache, or it's a facepalm, or a little of both. xD It looks so much like Legion. I remember reading somewhere that Saren tried to cover up his geth arm when he talked with the Council... but even if he didn't, the Council is pretty oblivious.

...Possibly lost his arm? D: Poor Saren. Although, it does make more sense than replacing it with a geth arm just because he felt like it. (Indoctrination made him do it?) I was also wondering if his jaw is sort of being held together by cybernetics, or if his teeth were always visible through the sides of his head.

Interestingly enough, in my very first playthrough of Mass Effect 1, I did not notice the cybernetics in the jaw until the very final scene before his I persuaded him to shoot himself, and for a time believed that it was there because he needed it to be reconstructed after Shepard's epic punch on Virmire. When I realized it was there from the start I was disappointed that Shepard lost a level in badass.

[Nivenus]

Collider wrote...

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

Yea, I actually thought it was rather silly that Bioware tried to paint Cerberus in even a semi-positive light. I admit to being a bit of a moral absolutist so maybe I just have tunnel vision, but those guys seem capitol N nasty to me with almost no exceptions.

I think they wanted the player to be conflicted. On one hand, they are nasty terrorists who have done horrible things. On the other hand, they're doing some good and appear to the only ones able and willing to do so. Those two things for me makes me dislike TIM even more, which is a good thing in this context. Makes for a good villain.

This.

Even my sole survivor Shepard warmed to them a little.

You're brought back to life with supremely advanced tech. You're told that the people who brought you back are war criminals and terrorists. Naturally, you feel conflicted. Then you meet TIM. Depending on your history with Cerberus you may be less than inclined to believe him. You meet Tali. She also doesn't like Cerberus. You meet Joker. He does like Cerberus. You got to the Citadel, confident you can win back the Council's support. They throw your claims back in your face.

Plus, Cerberus gives you a really big, comfy ship that's about twice as good as the old Normandy. And they pay you regularly. And they send you cool weapons and armor. And they give you free reign over your missions.

Cerberus does a really, really good job at seducing you.

[Aricle]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

On another note, I have been messing around with ME1 the last few days and took Tali and Garrus for the final run on the citadel, and lo and behold, TALI is the one who suggests I let the council die while Garrus advocates I save them. Makes sense, given the unfair shake the council has given the quarians, but I still found it surprising. I thought Garrus was the more "renegade" of that pair by far. I HATE how squaddies opinions change based on who else is in your squad. It makes it so hard to peg what they actually think. I know Garrus also advocates saving the council if you have Wrex or Ash with you, but that's not saying much. The Tali thing surprised me though.

Garrus was paragon as I was; but he advocated focusing on Sovereign rather than the Council when I was there at the end with him and Tali, in my recent level 60 playthrough. I let the Council die on my second playthough (before the Level 60 one) as it seemed logical to focus on the threat to the galaxy rather than a small group. I saved the Council twice and let them die once.

And, Garrus. <3

[Nivenus]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

I once saved the Collector base just to see what would happen and TIM's evil leer as he drools over the holo of the base like a wolf does a side of beef utterly soured me on any seduction Cerberus had managed at that point.  Oh yea, and his "Cerberus IS humanity" declaration.  I actually wanted to keep the base.  I felt like  a fool blowing it up, but blown up is better than in TIM's hands in my book.

I considered it. It would be useful (I also preserved the Anvil in DA:O). But my paragade sole survivor Shepard didn't trust TIM as far as he could throw him. Not sure how my other Shepards will react though. Ultra-paragon war hero will probably destroy it too, though for more pure and noble reasons. Renegon ruthless will probably keep it. Not sure, though.

Modifié par Nivenus, 30 avril 2010 - 08:43 .

[Aricle]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

Aricle wrote...

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

On another note, I have been messing around with ME1 the last few days and took Tali and Garrus for the final run on the citadel, and lo and behold, TALI is the one who suggests I let the council die while Garrus advocates I save them. Makes sense, given the unfair shake the council has given the quarians, but I still found it surprising. I thought Garrus was the more "renegade" of that pair by far. I HATE how squaddies opinions change based on who else is in your squad. It makes it so hard to peg what they actually think. I know Garrus also advocates saving the council if you have Wrex or Ash with you, but that's not saying much. The Tali thing surprised me though.

Garrus was paragon as I was; but he advocated focusing on Sovereign rather than the Council when I was there at the end with him and Tali, in my recent level 60 playthrough. I let the Council die on my second playthough (before the Level 60 one) as it seemed logical to focus on the threat to the galaxy rather than a small group. I saved the Council twice and let them die once.

And, Garrus. <3

Huh, did you have Garrus in the second or first slot or do you remember?  He was in the second slot for me, well I picked him second on the squaddi screen anyway.  That way you always get the "Garrus shakes his head sadly" scene when he thinks Shep is dead.  I love that.

I think he was in the second because Tali was in the first after getting the Garrus ally and removing him to trigger getting the quarian ally  then adding him again after getting quarian ally, for the finale. Unfortunately, I do not recall him shaking his head sadly; I still have the outstanding Insanity achievement so perhaps to play again, to see that Garrus moment. I was going to wait and play again through ME and ME2 just before ME3 comes out but... Garrus. <3 I want to see that scene!

[Kim Shepard]

Nivenus wrote...

Kim Shepard wrote...

At the very end of Revelation, Saren has either found Sovereign or at least knows about Sovereign. And he doesn't have a geth arm in his picture on the cover (which makes sense, because that would have happened after Sovereign started to indocrinate him). His face looks the same though, glowing eyes and all. ...I think Saren has been tied with Garrus for my favorite character for a while.

Also, on the topic of the councilors - I would like to see Shepard say "Dismiss this!" to them when the Reapers show up. xD

He is an interesting character. He even has a few pet the dog moments in Revelation. In the end, though, I felt he got shoehorned a bit too much in the book into being ruthless for the sake of being ruthless - the way Anderson says he was in ME1.

"Pet the dog" moments? I'm a little confused. xD

Saren was just about as ruthless as I thought he'd be, actually. I think every ruthless thing he did still had a reason that made sense for him though. Now that I think about it, he didn't really do anything that some of my Renegade Shepards wouldn't do, with the exception of trying to use Sovereign.

@Lemonwizard: That's awesome. xD I didn't even notice it in two playthroughs of ME1, I was just looking at screenshots. I think Shepard could still deliver a really powerful punch though (especially if it's a biotic punch)... maybe not face-breaking though.

One of my Sole Survivors is actually going to side with Cerberus in the end. They did bring him back to life, help him defeat the Collectors when no one else would, and keep a few members of the old team around.