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[Nivenus]

Kim Shepard wrote...

I miss the ME1 charm/intimidate system...

So do I. I mean, I can see paragon or renegade tendencies giving you a slight edge towards charm or intimidate just as strength vs. intelligence gives you a slight edge towards one or the other in DA:O, but there should still be a base persuade skill.

But then, I'm a fan of non-combat skills in general.

EDIT: Top post.

Modifié par Nivenus, 05 mai 2010 - 07:55 .

[Collider]

Garrus did want to kill Sidonis, but I don't think for a second he's going to risk or hurt Shepard just for revenge on someone else. Garrus respects Shepard way too much to hurt him or her. The only way I could see Garrus *possibly* stopping or "hurting" Shepard is if he/she is renegade "Darth Shepard."

[Sialater]

Nilfalasiel wrote...

3. I guess it depends on how far gone you think he is. I know that he would never risk Shep's life, but anger can make you do stupid things, as witnessed by that entire LM. In fact, if we're assuming that Garrus would ever dare to risk Shep's life, it would be in a moment of extreme anger, especially if you factor in the iconoclastic approach. Unlike the scene with Dr Michel, whom he obviously doesn't have the same kind of relationship with. So yeah, while I knew he wouldn't dare shoot while Shep was in the way, and while I was fairly sure that he wouldn't shoot once he said "tell him to go", the fact that he'd gotten aggressive with Shep right before made me think about the possibility. If anyone knows that you shouldn't ****** Shep off, it's Garrus. And since he ignores that, to an extent, I can totally see Shep having a fleeting "OSHI-" thought while she/he's standing in front of Sidonis. 

Yeah, he IS the one who tells Jack Shep's enemies tend to end up dead, so risking her wrath right there means, a) he trusts she'll forgive him eventually, or he's so far gone in his guilt and rage he doesn't care if he's moved to "enemy."

I'm gonna go with "A".

[Collider]

Nivenus wrote...

Kim Shepard wrote...

I miss the ME1 charm/intimidate system...

So do I. I mean, I can see paragon or renegade tendencies giving you a slight edge towards charm or intimidate just as strength vs. intelligence gives you a slight edge towards one or the other in DA:O, but there should still be a base persuade skill.

But then, I'm a fan of non-combat skills in general.

What they should have done is just had the paragon/renegade scale be about reputation. Other than that, paragon and renegade scores should have nothing to do with the availability of charm or intimidate. Only your persaude skill. The ME2 system inhibits roleplaying, and roleplaying was the reason I even played these games in the first place.

[janeym27]

The volcano has killed my plane again. This time I made it all the way to the airport. If Garrus were here, he'd fix it! (can you calibrate a volcano? If anyone can, Garrus can.

@Nilfalaseil. Quite the first post. Don't worry, we are a 'giant walls o text' kinda thread.

OK, guys. I've had an idea for a new fanfic, and it got me thinking on a whole other MASSIVE Garrus tangent.
We spend a lot of time on this thread discussing the Garrus/Shep dynamic and relationship, and how this has shaped Garrus' character development between ME1 and ME2. The effects of Shepard's guiidence, the loss at his/her death, what brought him to Omega, etc. I love al this, and fins it fascinating. But today I had a thought: what about the other Garrus? The Garrus Separd refused to take on in her team. He ends up on Omega as well, so what lead him there?

I'm thinking that Garrus is going to be frustrated, angry and disappointed if rejected by Shepard. Saren was his case before it was ever hers, for a start. He'd have continued at C-Sec, working small time cases, and being forced to let the big ones get away because of all the red tape... I suspect he'd have started to lose control of his temper around suspects, which would get him into trouble; start down a dark road. Maybe he begins to hate his situation, hate what it's turning him into.
I'd like to think he is there for the battle on the Citadel, fighting the good fight. Maybe he even gets a medal for valour (he clearly survives it, and we all know Garrus can fight!). Afterwards, the Citadel is in ruins: Garrus is going to take that personally. After all, Saren was his case, and Saren is the supposed 'cause' of it all. I can imagine him resenting Shepard a little for not taking him on as well (sort of a "if I had been on that team, things would have gone differently" kind of attitude.) He has to return to C-Secduty, knowing that red tape hampered an investiagtion  into someone he KNEW was bad, and who eventually wrought destruction on the Citadel, and yet still he can't do anything about it. Saren, even though he was eventually killed, is another case that got away from him because of politics.
Then Shepard's death is announced, and there is a grand funeral, and this makes him think: OK, so what is the point of ANY of this? The person who did his job for him has died, he is stuck in a job he should be making a big difference in, but feels he can't because of the beurocracy (remember, at this point, Saleon is still alive. Yet another one that got away.) He lost friends and colleagues in the battle of the Citadel, he is watching them rebuild a city which has as much corruption and evil in it as ever...something has got to give.

So he leaves. Saleon is still in his head, and he resolves to take him out. It;s not as easy as it would have been with Shepard's help, but he manages it. It ends bloodily.

What next? Free from the restrictions of C-Sec, he feels like he can finally find his calling. Killing Saleon has liberated him, in a way. He ends up on Omega, builds his squad, makes a difference... then it all comes crashing down around him.

When Shepard reeners his life, it's almost like the universe is mocking him. She is going to do what he should have done: again. And she's meant to be dead. When he wakes up on the Normandy and joins her crew, I imagine him challanging her over her leaving him behind the 1st time, but feeling like, given the way things turned out, maybe she had been right about him. This would put an entirly different spin on the FemShep Garrus romance, or even a Garrus bromance. Rather than having a history of friend and mentor, Shepard has almost been an icon for Garrus' failures. Where do they go from there?

Anyway, wow. Wall of text again (see what I mean?) Sorry. Bus ride to and from the airport, my brain went a-wandering, yessiree. So this is what I'm ficing now. Garrus' story between being rejected by Shepard in ME1, and meeting up with her again in ME2. The problem is, I have never done a Garrusless playthrough so next ME1 I do (and I still need a 'faithful to Garrus PT as well') I will be rejecting Garrus for science.
I know the ME2 default has 'did not recruit Garrus' as ME1 history. I may go so far as to reject him in ME1, reload, bring him, then just start a default ME2 Shep. I was thinking, though. So many of Garrus' lines allude to your history together, is playing without that history going to make a massive difference to their interaction? Has anyone here done it? I think my thinking as regards the text splurge above may change after I've played it this way, but the whole thought of what the catalysts for Garrus' character development between ME1 and ME2 were without Shepard's guidence and loss intrigues me immensly. Thoughts? (if we've done this before before I came, sorry for the text wall. lol)

[Collider]

@Janey: Pretty sure not recruiting Garrus only changes a few lines. Could be wrong though.

[Lemonwizard]

Collider wrote...

Nivenus wrote...

Kim Shepard wrote...

I miss the ME1 charm/intimidate system...

So do I. I mean, I can see paragon or renegade tendencies giving you a slight edge towards charm or intimidate just as strength vs. intelligence gives you a slight edge towards one or the other in DA:O, but there should still be a base persuade skill.

But then, I'm a fan of non-combat skills in general.

What they should have done is just had the paragon/renegade scale be about reputation. Other than that, paragon and renegade scores should have nothing to do with the availability of charm or intimidate. Only your persaude skill. The ME2 system inhibits roleplaying, and roleplaying was the reason I even played these games in the first place.

I sort of interpreted it as "You're saying the same words but your reputation (represented by para/rene points) determines whether or not it will be successful". Persuading somebody it's going to be okay and you will help them out probably isn't going to fly with most people if the whole galaxy knows your preferred method of dealing with problems is shooting them until they stop moving. Similarly, most intimidation will be taken as idle threats if you're reputed to be a paragon who's constantly forgiving everybody for everything.

[janeym27]

Collider wrote...

@Janey: Pretty sure not recruiting Garrus only changes a few lines. Could be wrong though.

I know the intro is different. I'm going to have to do this for science. If nothing else, not having that history is going to change the interpration of whole conversations, IMO.

[Collider]

Lemonwizard wrote...

Collider wrote...

Nivenus wrote...

Kim Shepard wrote...

I miss the ME1 charm/intimidate system...

So do I. I mean, I can see paragon or renegade tendencies giving you a slight edge towards charm or intimidate just as strength vs. intelligence gives you a slight edge towards one or the other in DA:O, but there should still be a base persuade skill.

But then, I'm a fan of non-combat skills in general.

What they should have done is just had the paragon/renegade scale be about reputation. Other than that, paragon and renegade scores should have nothing to do with the availability of charm or intimidate. Only your persaude skill. The ME2 system inhibits roleplaying, and roleplaying was the reason I even played these games in the first place.

I sort of interpreted it as "You're saying the same words but your reputation (represented by para/rene points) determines whether or not it will be successful". Persuading somebody it's going to be okay and you will help them out probably isn't going to fly with most people if the whole galaxy knows your preferred method of dealing with problems is shooting them until they stop moving. Similarly, most intimidation will be taken as idle threats if you're reputed to be a paragon who's constantly forgiving everybody for everything.

I don't buy for a second, though, that everyone in the galaxy you can charm or intimidate is going to either
a) know about Shepard's reputation
care about Shepard's reputation

[Nilfalasiel]

Collider wrote...
 "Darth Shepard."

Shepard (with a black volus mask on his head): Garrus...*breathes*...Papa Vakarian lied to you. *breathes* I AM YOUR FATHER!

Garrus: D: !

Although, hey, who knows? He may have preferred having MaleShep as a father instead of Papa Vakarian...

Concerning the Paragon/Renegade checks for the fights: does that mean that the Tali vs Legion one is almost unresolvable? Considering it can only happen late in the game, unlike Jack vs Miranda.

[Nivenus]

Collider wrote...

Nivenus wrote...

Kim Shepard wrote...

I miss the ME1 charm/intimidate system...

So do I. I mean, I can see paragon or renegade tendencies giving you a slight edge towards charm or intimidate just as strength vs. intelligence gives you a slight edge towards one or the other in DA:O, but there should still be a base persuade skill.

But then, I'm a fan of non-combat skills in general.

What they should have done is just had the paragon/renegade scale be about reputation. Other than that, paragon and renegade scores should have nothing to do with the availability of charm or intimidate. Only your persaude skill. The ME2 system inhibits roleplaying, and roleplaying was the reason I even played these games in the first place.

I largely agree. As I said, I can see your paragon/renegade reputation affecting the score slightly, but I think it should mostly be determined by a base, non-combat skill.

[Collider]

Nilfalasiel wrote...
Concerning the Paragon/Renegade checks for the fights: does that mean that the Tali vs Legion one is almost unresolvable? Considering it can only happen late in the game, unlike Jack vs Miranda.

They likely scaled the Tali v Legion one because that one starts fairly shortly before the end of the game. I played as Paragade (75% para, 25% renegade) Shepard, and was not able to solve the Jack V. Miranda fight but was able to solve the Tali v. Legion one.

[Cerrydd]

janeym27 wrote...

The volcano has killed my plane again. This time I made it all the way to the airport. If Garrus were here, he'd fix it! (can you calibrate a volcano? If anyone can, Garrus can.

NOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!! Damn the volcano gods. When will we ever get the chance to see you jig?! Are you going to try again tomorrow?

Your fic idea is very interesting. I've never rejected Garrus in ME1 (duh). I know his introduction in ME2 is a tad different, but I don't know how it affects the other conversations.

(sorry, this is no wall of text )

[janeym27]

Cerrydd wrote...

janeym27 wrote...

The volcano has killed my plane again. This time I made it all the way to the airport. If Garrus were here, he'd fix it! (can you calibrate a volcano? If anyone can, Garrus can.

NOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!! Damn the volcano gods. When will we ever get the chance to see you jig?! Are you going to try again tomorrow?

Your fic idea is very interesting. I've never rejected Garrus in ME1 (duh). I know his introduction in ME2 is a tad different, but I don't know how it affects the other conversations.

(sorry, this is no wall of text )

I'm trying again tomorrow. I may dance a Garrus jig yet. lol

It started as a fic idea, but I actually find the whole thing interesting, even as a point of discussion. Mostly because we all here seem to put a lot of weight on the Shep/Garrus history and relationship. Without that... they become something else entirely. Jacob even accepts that's why you are dumping him, for pete's sake! (I wonder what he says if you don't have a history...) Sigh. Science PT it is. It's going to make me feel dirty, telling him no. lol

OK - I need wine. I've been half-way around the world to go nowhere! lol Happy Hour!

Modifié par janeym27, 05 mai 2010 - 08:12 .

[kglaser]

Lemonwizard wrote...

And regarding the "ruining the friendship" factor many people complain about, I'm of the mind that if your friendship can get ruined by a little awkward tension you were hardly that good of friends in the first place.

I agree with that.

Lemonwizard wrote:

Alot of "official" guides tend to be riddled with errors.

Yes, I have the Bioshock guide and it's got several errors, not the least of which is an utterly wrong statement about the main character's age/history.  What is worse, the guide contradicts itself in several places.  I was kinda nerdraging over it.

Modifié par kglaser, 05 mai 2010 - 08:19 .

[Collider]

If anyone has the PC version, they could probably use the save game editor to have it so the game thinks Shepard didn't recruit Garrus in ME1, and then go talk to Garrus, Jacob, etc.

[Kim Shepard]

I don't think Garrus would have shot Shepard, but my Shepards let him kill Sidonis, so they've never seen his anger in person, and I've only seen a few of the youtube videos. Garrus is one of the few people my Shepards would trust enough to stand with their back to his gun though (just as a generalization, most of my Shepard's feel that way), which definitely says something about him - he seems to be the least likely to betray Shepard.

Collider wrote...

Nivenus wrote...

Kim Shepard wrote...

I miss the ME1 charm/intimidate system...

So do I. I mean, I can see paragon or renegade tendencies giving you a slight edge towards charm or intimidate just as strength vs. intelligence gives you a slight edge towards one or the other in DA:O, but there should still be a base persuade skill.

But then, I'm a fan of non-combat skills in general.

What they should have done is just had the paragon/renegade scale be about reputation. Other than that, paragon and renegade scores should have nothing to do with the availability of charm or intimidate. Only your persaude skill. The ME2 system inhibits roleplaying, and roleplaying was the reason I even played these games in the first place.

I agree. The roleplaying was the same reason why I bought Mass Effect too. I wouldn't have been able to plan out so many different Shepards if it was just Paragon and Renegade. I hope they fix that in ME3, or at least I hope I find some way to get around the new system with Paragades and Renegons.

[janeym27]

kglaser wrote...

Lemonwizard wrote...

And regarding the "ruining the friendship" factor many people complain about, I'm of the mind that if your friendship can get ruined by a little awkward tension you were hardly that good of friends in the first place.

I agree with that.

That entirly depends on how neurotic you are to begin with. lol. I've been there, and overthought it, and been awkward for much longer than necessery with one of my best friends in the world. I would trust my life to this man, yet the sex thing made me go 'whut?' and run away. Sometime when the thing you have before is so good, you are terrified of changing it in case it fails to live up to what it used to be.

[Nilfalasiel]

Collider wrote...
They likely scaled the Tali v Legion one because that one starts fairly shortly before the end of the game. I played as Paragade (75% para, 25% renegade) Shepard, and was not able to solve the Jack V. Miranda fight but was able to solve the Tali v. Legion one.

Ok, that's good to know. I'll be doing Jack's LM as soon as I clear the Collector Ship, so since I've already done Miranda's LM, I should hopefully be able to solve the subsequent fight (paragon bar almost full, tiny amount of renegade).

It's true that they seem to have made the whole paragon/renegade more difficult in this game. Not only are the decisions less clear-cut in regards to which is which (sometimes you don't get paragon from top-right choices), but you also get penalized pretty harshly for not strictly sticking to one path. Which is a shame, considering they've made an effort on moral grey areas (eg. going Paragon during Mordin's first confession about the genophage...I thought it was too harsh).

@ janeym27: Interesting take on it, and definitely setting it up for a more conflictual Shep/Garrus relationship (both for Male and FemShep). But I'd never be able to willingly not recruit him >< I admire your dedication! 

[Cerrydd]

janeym27 wrote...

Jacob even accepts that's why you are dumping him, for pete's sake! (I wonder what he says if you don't have a history...

There's another soundfile of Jacob going "That cuttlebone? I guess you like your men wounded." or something. The Pacific is on in a few minutes, so I can't look it up right now...

[Soltana]

Janey, I demand you write that and share with us! Sounds like you got somethin' there.

But thinking about the dialogue differences if you didn't recruit him, my mind wandered to the convo when he says "After the Normandy was destroyed, I went....*insert whatever path you steered him down here*" Does he say this if you DIDN'T recruit him? It wouldn't make a whole lot of sense.

But also! Even with what Jacob says in the beginning about the aliens on board the Normandy when it got destroyed ("Tali, the asari Liara all survived" or whatever the quote was) by Garrus' line above, it makes it sound like he was indeed aboard the Normandy. I mean if he wasn't, what was he doing in the time Shep was patrolling the Terminus systems? Why would he say that he applied for Spectre training/went back to C-Sec after the Normandy was destroyed? My vote is that he WAS there. Jacob's dialogue just made it seem like he was rattling off the names that he remembered from the reports.

Does any of my rambling make sense? I've been awake all night. I also think I'm over-thinking this.

And also, Wrex's dialogue led me to believe that he didn't even know Shepard was dead.
Wrex: Yay for double body parts!
Shep: Uh Wrex, humans don't have that.
Wrex: Sucks to be you, lolz.

I am SO sorry for my rambling. I am so sleep deprived trying to find a place to live for our near-future move.

Modifié par Soltana, 05 mai 2010 - 08:23 .

[Nivenus]

On one of my playthroughs I thought about not recruiting Garrus. But I couldn't do it, because I'd already played the game with him and knew he was my bro. So I recruited him anyway.

[Collider]

Garrus was on the ship when the Normandy was attacked if you recruit him, that's for certain. If you didn't recruit him, I think as another poster said in here, that he was still inspired by Shepard and when his inspiration Shepard apparently died with the Normandy SR1, he was disheartened but wanted to follow Shepard's example and change things up and do what's right without worrying about red tape all the time.

[kglaser]

Kim Shepard wrote...

@Collider: Those jumping geth really surprised me at first, and then they were kind of annoying until my aiming improved. I think Garrus and Wrex killed most of them on my first playthrough while my Shepard  just stood there shooting like a madman. xD

Those jumping geth elements were what made the final boss fight with Saren tricky at higher difficulty levels.  I could handle his attacks, but @#$% you, stay still dammit!!  I would hit him with something and he would have jumped 2 other places by the time it got there.

janeym27 wrote:

Garrus to the swarms is a bad way to lose him (if you have to). The
gut-shot, or getting crushed deaths are more emotional, but so SAD!../../../images/forum/emoticons/crying.png The screaming for the swarm death though.... interesting sound file. ahem.

I don't have the heart to do that to him, but I do love when he gets gutshot on the suicide mission, because he just shrugs it off like it's a side stitch and then Shepard just whacks him on the shoulder like, "ahh, you're fine, come on let's get going".  I grin like an idiot every time I see that.  So perfect a reaction for a badass who can get shot in the face with a missile and still joke about it immediately afterward.

Modifié par kglaser, 05 mai 2010 - 08:52 .

[kglaser]

Flammie wrote...

Walls of text are nice and all, but they're not the most swallow-able thing... especially in the morning rush before school and lunch break. And then I'd have forgotten about them when I actually have a more leisurely time...

Then I recommend reading one sentence at a time, and posting every time a thought enters your chicken head.  Works like a charm for me, and has the side benefit of irking you.
j/k you know I likes ya (mmm chicken yummy)