27956 réponses à ce sujet

[kglaser]

Ghostwing85 wrote...

/rant /rant /whine /complain /moan /spit /hissyfit /goes off to get a life /done

*poofs!*

eta:  I want to see proof that the writer ever actually met Garrus Vakarian.  Preferably a photo, but an autograph might suffice.

Modifié par kglaser, 13 mai 2010 - 04:14 .

[Mr.BlazenGlazen]

*flys in*



*drops a picture*





*perches on top of thread*

[kglaser]

Hey that's a nice picture, I don't remember that one, thanks for sharing

[Mr.BlazenGlazen]

I google images.

[Mr.BlazenGlazen]

Garrus even acts younger then shepard.

[Sand King]

Fire & Ice

[Brass_Buckles]

Okay, I know the Femshep/Garrus marriage topic happened pages upon pages ago, but I thought I'd give my two cents.



The only remotely similar thing to "marriage" we have heard alluded to in Mass Effect with turians is that one guy who mentions having a mate. I'm suspicious that this is less a ceremonial or legal thing than it is just a mutual decision to stay together. It's also possible that turians go through a courtship process before settling on a mate for life--but bear in mind that even wild animals that mate for life can and do cheat on their mates. I don't believe asari normally marry either (due to lifespan most likely) and neither do krogan. Thus far, there's only one race other than humans that I think we've seen that definitely does marriage--the drell.



I've seen fanfics where people try to come up with some ritual or ceremony for Femshep to become mates with Garrus, or they've had him try to take up human culture and actually marry her--but until I have evidence supporting some form of turian marriage arrangement, I believe a turian makes friends with a female, eventually decides he wants to be more than friends, and if it works out they become mates by mutual agreement. The human perception would probably be that they decide to be lovers or cohabitants. In all honesty, this fits the general idea of turian society's personal freedoms--rather than having to go through a legal process of divorce, or shaking things up by going out and meeting strangers and getting obsessed, you stick with someone you already know you get along with, and if you drift apart, you can part ways without a lot of legal red tape (though I wouldn't idealize the drifting apart bit because I'm sure these things could still get ugly--something turian society would seriously frown on).



On the one hand, the term "mate" made me think it must be more unofficial, and yet also that it's possible turians actually mate for life (and poor turians if they end up with someone they don't like...). But, there are people in the real world who'll call their spouses their mates, so the vibe I got from that turian on Omega may be totally wrong (but interesting because it also implies he's either estranged from his mate, or doesn't want her in a place like Omega... or maybe both).



If turians do mate for life, then it makes me question the role of "blowing off steam" like Garrus did (sounded a lot like hate sex!). Sex as a form of courtship maybe? In which case, maybe it wasn't hate sex at all, but the situation somehow didn't work out. She was a recon scout, and they were heading into a dangerous mission. Maybe the reason it didn't come to more than that is because she died during the mission. But, turian personal freedoms imply that they're okay with casual sex, so on the other hand, they may also be perfectly okay with sleeping around and a "mate" may simply be the person a turian keeps coming back to or chooses to raise offspring with. Frankly, though, my suspicion is that a turian might have casual sex all he/she wants without a thought to how well he/she gets along with those partners, but would approach someone he/she considers a potential mate (in terms of mates for life) more respectfully--I guess it's more an idea of "stress relief/having fun" vs. "I want to spend the rest of my life with this person and maybe have babies together." If turians instinctively seek out a mate for life, then once again, being more attracted to friends than random strangers they find physically appealing would make sense--because it'd really suck to be stuck with someone it turned out you hated. I'm sure that would happen anyway, unless turians are less prone to changing over time than human beings are.



If on the other hand turians do not mate for life (though the term would generally imply they would) then maybe we should be looking at this more as a girlfriend/boyfriend thing, or even some kind of sociopolitical arrangement. I think in some ancient European cultures people would arrange to be handfasted for a year and a day or something. When the contract ended you could move on to someone else.



Among humans, marriage developed as a means of ensuring advantages to one or both families, and when you get down to it, most cultures did this by treating females as property--if a man had a daughter, he could sell her to another man for land or animals or other forms of wealth and improve his standing and his sons' inheritance. Of course it's also always (until recently) ultimately been about producing and raising children, which isn't necessarily always the case in modern society with the advent of various forms of birth control. Has one turian gender ever been considered unequal to the other? This is another question you have to ask when you're thinking about whether or not turians marry (and therefore whether FemShep can or would marry Garrus). If so, then marriage-style ceremonies are more likely. However, if turians always mated for life then it becomes less likely again because it's something that just happens--unless they have some kind of celebration or ceremony once they realize they've found that special someone, just to let everyone else know they're off-limits now.



I'll go out on a limb and say that the only reason Garrus would consider being with Femshep is that he is, in fact, a very bad turian. He's apparently pretty serious about being with her once she suggests the idea--likely only expressing doubt because he's not sure if she's serious about it. We don't know how serious Garrus is though--is he trying to woo her into becoming his mate? Choosing a human for a mate means he won't be contributing to the turian gene pool or to making any important sociopolitical connections with other turian families (I suspect that is a consideration for turians), and in fact, it will royally tick off many, many turians who remember the First Contact War/Relay 314 Incident and may cause discontent among the Cerberus crew members. It's a selfish decision. I suspect even asari aren't completely accepted as partners for turians, even though you see a lot of turian-asari pairs in-game. They'd be more acceptable than humans, though, due to the asari's long history with turians and the Council.

[Collider]

Quarians apparently have marriages (there were mentions of husbands and wives in Quarian society). Turians no idea.

[Andaius20]

Hey folks stopping in to say hello, and send over party gifts from the passing 5K page celebrations *Sends out Dextro cake and beer*

[Brass_Buckles]

Collider wrote...

Quarians apparently have marriages (there were mentions of husbands and wives in Quarian society). Turians no idea.

I thought that, but I wasn't sure I remembered it right. I didn't mention it for risk of sounding completely stupid.

Thanks for confirming though.

[Collider]

I don't think there would be much stigma with Turians and Asari/Salarians being together. We've never heard anything about Turian duty also being contributing to the gene pool IIRC

Modifié par Collider, 13 mai 2010 - 05:55 .

[Andaius20]

I wouldn't think salarians would even have relationships in the first place.

[Collider]

Andaius20 wrote...

I wouldn't think salarians would even have relationships in the first place.

There's a Salarian with an Asari on Illium. Salarians just don't have sex drives (or at least they have very low sex drives).

[Andaius20]

there convo sounded more like a business arrangement. Did he mention something about the "stake of there families breeding strategy" was on the line.

[Brass_Buckles]

Collider wrote...

I don't think there would be much stigma with Turians and Asari/Salarians being together. We've never heard anything about Turian duty also being contributing to the gene pool IIRC

Yeah but remember Garrus's comment about interspecies intercourse:  he'd never considered it before.  It doesn't sound like that kind of thing is particularly common, or he'd probably have thought of it once or twice already with Femshep.  It strikes me as a rebellious thing to do--which is frankly right up Garrus's alley.  Of course intercourse isn't the same thing as a romantic relationship--which a turian (or any other species) can have with an asari without ever having actual sex with her, due to the mind-meld thing (I was feeling like my Shepard was VERY used by Shiala in ME1 when I learned what mind-melds are to the asari, and a bit annoyed I couldn't have her say something to that effect).

My thinking:  Generally speaking, you'd expect a future society based on the good of all to want people with good genetics from important families to reproduce.  Garrus's dad seems to be pretty important.  Garrus himself is apparently somewhat exceptional if he was hand-picked for Spectre training, and considering his comment to MShep, probably also good-looking for a turian (though this is debatable).  Yeah, I'd say most turians would want him to find a nice turian woman to settle down with and have a kid or two who could then grow up to be equally exceptional and do great things for turian society.  Most societies do want their citizens to have kids.

Edited to add:  Above posters are right.  Salarians don't do relationships.  Although there's one you can rescue who seems to have a crush on Thane.

Modifié par Brass_Buckles, 13 mai 2010 - 06:04 .

[Collider]

Well there is one to consider. Turians may not find humans very attractive in general - just like we think that Vorcha and Krogan are pretty fugly. That would make considering having sex with them pretty rare. Turians are a race with trillions of people - they aren't in need of more Turians any time soon. And I don't believe I heard any Turians say that they disapproved of relationships with Asari at all. It seems like if they looked down on it we might have gotten an indication.



You do have a really good argument though...we just can't know for sure since Bioware hasn't really confirmed it.

[Brass_Buckles]

Well, populationwise, no, turians aren't in any danger and probably neither are humans. But, they'd still want to expand to other colonies, build their army, etc. And again, it benefits society as a whole if the people with the best genetics reproduce. We know Garrus is very skilled. He also strikes me as possibly being a very intelligent character (even though I've seen it pointed out here that some fanfics paint him as a total dunce). Aside from being quick-witted, he's noted for being a tactical genius. He's also pretty good with technology--especially weapons tech. And those calibrations likely require insane amounts of mathematical calculations. So, we can assume that as an exceptional soldier he's physically above-average, he's apparently above-average intellectually, and my guess is he's more attractive than the average male turian to female turians. This is exactly the kind of person you want to encourage to have kids.



That said, I don't think interspecies relationships with humans would necessarily be so much frowned on as the turian involved would be for stirring up trouble. After all his genetics could still be used by turian society, but really, Garrus? A human? You know how rash and reckless they are, never thinking about the consequences to the greater galactic society as a whole...

[Collider]

Garrus is a baaaad turian

But that's okay

[TheAmazingTucann]

i want to see what Turian women look like, same with Salarians

[Mariquis]

If you talk to Mordin at some point -- I think it might be the 'let shep down gently' one -- he says that while he's had numerous offers from various species he has refused them all due to his lack of sex drive. He then goes on to ramble about how the asari were actually kind of appealing and he babbled on about some possibilities on why that was i.e. neurochemical. So it seems like the asari overall are just a special case. There's also the salarian shopping with his asari lover's daughter on Illium (the one who was going to buy the Illium - you're blue shifting already shirt -- I can't be the only one who found that funny... right? *crickets*).

@Brass_Buckles:
You brought up an amazing point that I totally forgot about -- turian societal freedoms. And actually on that thought I know that turians are based more upon Roman culture so I wonder if their marriage laws would be similar as well (probably pre-Augustus). Marriage was seen as a necessity in Roman culture for purposes of reproduction, which would probably no longer be relevant in modern day culture.  

Marriage was kind of a quick and easy arrangement which could be more or less annulled at any time for pretty much any reason (theoretically, of course). There was no stigma for divorce (serial marriage was actually quite common in the upper class) and marriage only required two things: consent and conubium.  In other words the couple had to consent and they had to be eligible to be married (i.e. not too closely related or what have you).  Couples could also be considered 'married' if they ACTED like they were married -- even if they didn't even live together or have a formal ceremony. Alternatively one of the stages of having a 'legit' marriage was that you demonstrated spouse-y feelings towards the other.  So potentially turian conceptions of partnership could be something more along those lines, where a contract of sorts does come into play but it is not so heavily laden with expectations (i.e. till death do us part) allowing for more freedom which seems more in line with their society.
 

[Brass_Buckles]

@Mariquis: I also pointed out that the specific use of the term "mate" seems to imply that turians lean toward a lifelong commitment to one other individual (they may cheat and may not react as strongly to cheating as humans would especially given turian personal freedoms, but they'd always go back to that one person). It also heavily implies partnering up for reproductive purposes. If you're only mates for a week or two, or a month, or a year, then you wouldn't be referring to your mate who isn't on the planet you're currently visiting. However I also think the term insinuates that there is no actual legal paperwork or ceremony involved. Turians are very duty-oriented and disciplined, so this would actually make sense. You don't need contracts to ensure that you're going to treat your mate right and stay with him/her until one of you dies if you're already possessed of the determination and willpower to do so. This becomes even more true if, as I mentioned before, turians mate for life by instinct. Sure they might have a few flings before they settle down, but once they settle they settle for good.

No matter how simple the paperwork, it's still going to be complicated to divorce unless both parties agree on all scores. I doubt that would even happen with turians splitting up. There are going to be hard feelings, arguments over who gets the kid, and who keeps the varren, and "I paid more for the apartment and shuttle than he did," and etc. That's what paperwork is for. Well, that and making sure close relatives don't marry in the first place.

If there's any paperwork or legality involved in a turian choosing a mate, I'd be surprised if it went beyond having official permission after determining that the couple were not too closely related to reproduce together should they choose to do so. But they're also likely expected to remain within their particular citizenship level--Yes, Garrus is a bad boy, dating his commander. But hey, she offered.  That said, turians being as disciplined as they are, they might be less prone to breaking up (even less so if instinct has a role), but for the most part I suspect that in the interests of not stirring up trouble, they'd settle things between themselves quietly without need for divorce papers if they did decide to part ways.  Of course there are always exceptions--just look how Septimus acts when Sha'ira rejects him.

Modifié par Brass_Buckles, 13 mai 2010 - 06:49 .

[Mariquis]

I disagree that the term 'mate' implies a life long relationship, perhaps because I first and foremost think of canines and felines when I heard the time, however that's up in the air, haha. However it is very true that there is not much point in designating someone a mate if they're only a fling. I did think the idea that they may have a mate, and then be able to go elsewhere as well to be plausible. I think we were discussing the equality of male/female turians before in the day and I think that in a society where one sex was not considered lesser or property (even in the past) would likely be a bit more free insofar as sexual freedoms.  

 Another interesting thing to note is that the codex makes mention of there being a long known history of ... army units (I forgot the term, woops!) which shows me they had/have the capability or recording lineages of a sort. However, it's also interesting to note that family trees are not recorded similarly -- since they clearly had the ability to (or at least it is not considered important enough to mention). This could indicate that things like bloodline aren't considered quite so integral to the individual/society like they were once with humanity and the monarchies. Tracing bloodline is one of the reasons why cheating (particularly in the past) has been so reviled. Because, before DNA testing was conceived, there was no way to tell if the kid was REALLY your son unless your wife was absolutely no doubt about it only screwing you. If they weren't worried about keeping a strict lineage then its quite possible they have a far more relaxed view on extra-'marital' relationships.

Yes the divorce aspect would likely not be so copy and paste as it was in Roman times. How it worked then was kids went with the dad, dowry went back with the mum and the woman would move back in with her family. Obviously in a society where women aren't quite so constrained it would not be so simple. On one hand I agree that excess paperwork would seem frivolous in a society structured as we seem to be speculating, but on the other it the modern day. I can't imagine there being much paperwork at all (similar to basic legal marriages -- just sign the blank and go.....or am I wrong, haha, I'm not married) but there would still need to be some base legal acknowledgement I would think. Particularly when dealing with issues like the inheritance or whatever disputes of parents versus spouse after the death of an individual, or cases of severe illness (like hospital visitation rights).
 

[Kim Shepard]

I just finished reading most of the pages I missed (there was a lot of them), and I missed the fun Nihlus = Saren = Garrus = everyone conspiracy theory being brought up again. xD But it would totally make my MainShep's day if Saren = Garrus means that Saren likes her too.

kglaser wrote...

Yes Dr. Heart = creepy. I am going to be replaying that soon. First I have to run around and talk to everyone on the SR1. LOL

My poor Vanguard is so far behind now... I'll probably play through Therum (the second main mission for him) tomorrow. I forgot how many conversations it takes for Garrus to tell Shepard about Saleon though.

[Brass_Buckles]

Mariquis wrote...

I disagree that the term 'mate' implies a life long relationship, perhaps because I first and foremost think of canines and felines when I heard the time, however that's up in the air, haha. However it is very true that there is not much point in designating someone a mate if they're only a fling. I did think the idea that they may have a mate, and then be able to go elsewhere as well to be plausible. I think we were discussing the equality of male/female turians before in the day and I think that in a society where one sex was not considered lesser or property (even in the past) would likely be a bit more free insofar as sexual freedoms. 
 

A "mate" is different from "mating."  Mating happens with animals, yes, but some animals have long-time mates.  Yes, penguins are loyal for a given season, but a lot of birds (and turians are originally meant to be avian-based) mate for life.  A lot also don't, but you would only call them mates for that mating season.  If they parted ways, they wouldn't be mates any longer.  A dog or a cat can mate, but doesn't have a mate.  But an alpha wolf will mate for life.  Hopefully this explanation makes sense--this is why I consider a "mate" to be a longer-term commitment (though this is not necessarily what Garrus is hoping for from FemShep--we have no evidence).  Considering the specific use of the term it strikes me that turians instinctively seek out companionship from the opposite gender for the long-term.  It might not be for life, given that they are sapient and things may not work out, but they're probably better at staying together than humans.  (Incidentally, this possibility may also doom Garrus/Femshep since Femshep is, well, human.  And we're notoriously non-dedicated to our significant others... just look at all the cheaters out there.)

Edited to add:  Re on the lineages.  Lineage is also important to know so you don't interbreed with close relatives.  It's been known for a long time that breeding with your cousins for ten generations is a bad idea. Of course that didn't stop people from doing so anyway in the past, but even if turians don't follow lineage super-closely, I imagine they would still keep tabs closely enough to avoid severe inbreeding.

Modifié par Brass_Buckles, 13 mai 2010 - 08:28 .