eta: it definitely looks military in origin, at least. At least by human standards that is.
Modifié par kglaser, 20 mai 2010 - 01:38 .
Garrus Love and Adoration v.2
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, févr. 18 2010 09:15
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#20901
Posté 20 mai 2010 - 01:37
kglaser
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Maybe it's like a little band that he put around his armor. I'd still like to know what it means for sure, though.
eta: it definitely looks military in origin, at least. At least by human standards that is.
eta: it definitely looks military in origin, at least. At least by human standards that is.
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#20902
Posté 20 mai 2010 - 01:40
kglaser
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LOLandStuff wrote...
Nihlus, the turian Jenkins. He stands out so much it's really sad how quickly he went down.
Heh, not a bad description.
I'll always be kinda bummed out for what might have been if we'd seen more of him. It's really a testament to the strength of his character, short-lived though it was, that many wonder things about him and would have liked to see more, even though he was only in the game for a few minutes.
I think for me part of the strength of the impression is that's the first turian you see in the game and it definitely made a mark on me. They are such striking entities. Esp. Nihlus with that awesome facepaint pattern.
#20903
Guest_Raga_*
Posté 20 mai 2010 - 01:40
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I know this is an old topic so I apologize in advance. If it doesn't interest you, skip at your leisure.
A few thoughts on character support threads: (This is not organized. I just wrote it as it came to me.)
Why did they appear in the first place?
I think a lot of people who attack the support threads fail to consider this question or think about all it's implications. Yes, the threads appeared because people really love these characters and want to talk about them, but the main reason they appear is because Mass Effect is a trilogy. In the past Bioware games have all been stand-alone. We knew very little about a character until the game came out and then once the game was out, we learned everything we would ever know about that character because the character only appeared in the one game. This is not the case in Mass Effect. With Mass Effect, there is a very high chance that we will see a character we love again in future games. This makes people much more prone to long-term discussion and it makes that discussion more relevant because A) There is a chance they will actually see the outcome of discussed scenarios in future games and
there is a chance they can convince Bioware to put certain content concerning characters they like in future games. If there was no upcoming material, most of the really die-hard fans for particular characters wouldn't be hanging out here on the Bioware forums. They'd be on some fansite writing fanfic and drawing art. Lots of people do that anyway, but there's lots of folks (like me) who don't do that. I'm here because I want to know what is going to happen to these characters next and I want Bioware to hear what I have to say. There are other characters I like as much or more than Garrus (Alistair for instance) but I don't hang around talking about him because I think we've probably seen everything we're gonna see on that front. I have "moved on" though I still appreciate the character. With Garrus, there is a great chance for more content so I am here actively talking and "petitioning" if you want to call it that. Saying people in these threads have no lives or focus on made-up characters too much is actually missing the point a little. If there was an active Carth Onasi thread or a Viconia deVir thread, well THEN I would start getting concerned....
Moving threads to some new forum is not going to remove the feeling of competition. Most of the "competition" comments I have seen are about number of posts or number of pages anyway. I don't hear people saying "Oh no, *insert character* thread is not on the first page" but rather "Oh no! Character A's thread has 1000 pages and our thread only has 500! What will we do?!" I don't care where you put the threads. People will still compare on the basis on length.
Some people claim the character threads are muddying up the forum. (Also known as you can't have the cake and eat it both.) Most of the big discussions about story stuff in these forums revolve around two main things A) characters (namely squaddies) and morality choices. People who complain that constant discussion of characters is preventing other interesting topics from getting noticed also fail to recognize something. Most of the more interesting moral conundrums in the game are presented to you by your squaddies. (The genophage via Mordian and Wrex, issues with AI via Tali and Legion.) Without those characters you miss a lot of the data that lets you make informed morality decisions. The same thing is true of tactics. Meaningful discussions of tactics have got to entail squaddies power usage, squaddie commands, squaddie AI, and what weapon's your companions have. Remove in-depth character discussion and you remove a very large portion of what is worth discussing in the game. Most of the character support threads are spring-boards to other topics. Want to discuss turians or sniping? Go to the Garrus thread. Asari? Go to the Liara thread. It is actually quite organized. It just happens to be organized on the basis of character. I think it's better than starting a new thread for every new topic under the sun. THAT would muddy up the forums. Does anybody remember the chaos of the forums right after the game came out BEFORE the arrival of the character threads and other more general topic threads? How many "I want same-sex romance threads" were there before a group got organized specifically for that? How many people complained about all the Tali threads? Now the Talimancers have a place to go. If you can't stand them, well, they are all in the same place. Now you can avoid them.
Some people claim that these threads foster competition. I actually say they save a lot of competition. Just post a comment about how much you like Zaeed or dislike Wrex in the general forums somewhere and see how often you get attacked. It's better for those guys if they have a safe environment with people who have similar opinions. Then they can discuss them without having to constantly defend themselves. Being attacked all the time makes you nasty and defensive and more prone to attacking yourself. I also acknowledge that this leads to groupthink within a thread, but if the members of a particular thread never venture out of their thread then it doesn't matter. I think most people remain quite civil until actively challenged and if they are never challenged than most of their chatter about "those other character threads" is largely idle and not directly provocative. In other words, yes, I admit thread members do get ridiculously proud of their own threads, but I also think that because they feel safe in those threads they are mostly prone to leaving members of other fandoms alone. This may produce fragmentation, but it also produces peace.
People who complain about the focus some players put on the romances are failing to consider some very important points. I actually think even some Bioware devs are guilty of this one. Bioware makes fantastic characters. They grab people. People love them or hate them, but you can't ignore them. Bioware is a master at creating meaningful relationships within games. In fact I think they do it better than anyone else out there. Do they make good stories? Yes. But I think other people make better stories. Do their games have good gameplay? Mostly yes, but again I can think of many others that I think do it better. Squaddie interaction is the one thing where Bioware is king of the hill for me. It is a major identifier. In fact, I'd say it is their MAIN identifier. Romance is just a natural extension of character interaction. The reason I focus so much on romance in Bioware games is not because that's all I want in a game. I do it because I think Bioware does romance better than anybody else. I think Insomniac comes up with the absolute best weapons in games so when I'm on those forums I talk about weapons. That's what draws me to Insomniac games. When I'm here, I usually talk about the romances, not because it is all Bioware has to offer but because it is one of the most unique things Bioware has to offer. I focus on the aspects of the game that I consider the strongest points of the game and for me in Mass Effect those are: character interaction (specifically romance) and world-building. I'm not inordinately focused on those things in all games. I just think those particular things are inordinately good in Bioware games so it stands to reason they would grab my attention.
I could rant some more but I think that's enough. In short, I like the support threads. I'm glad they are here, and while I understand that some people don't like having to joining a "clan" I personally don't want the threads to go anywhere. I think they provide cohesion and they give me a sense of community. Before I got into "Clan Vakarian" I felt like anything I had to say just vanished in a general faceless sea of forumites. Now I feel like what I say actually gets read, commented on, and thought about. That makes me quite happy.
Yet another wall of text.
Oh well.
A few thoughts on character support threads: (This is not organized. I just wrote it as it came to me.)
Why did they appear in the first place?
I think a lot of people who attack the support threads fail to consider this question or think about all it's implications. Yes, the threads appeared because people really love these characters and want to talk about them, but the main reason they appear is because Mass Effect is a trilogy. In the past Bioware games have all been stand-alone. We knew very little about a character until the game came out and then once the game was out, we learned everything we would ever know about that character because the character only appeared in the one game. This is not the case in Mass Effect. With Mass Effect, there is a very high chance that we will see a character we love again in future games. This makes people much more prone to long-term discussion and it makes that discussion more relevant because A) There is a chance they will actually see the outcome of discussed scenarios in future games and
there is a chance they can convince Bioware to put certain content concerning characters they like in future games. If there was no upcoming material, most of the really die-hard fans for particular characters wouldn't be hanging out here on the Bioware forums. They'd be on some fansite writing fanfic and drawing art. Lots of people do that anyway, but there's lots of folks (like me) who don't do that. I'm here because I want to know what is going to happen to these characters next and I want Bioware to hear what I have to say. There are other characters I like as much or more than Garrus (Alistair for instance) but I don't hang around talking about him because I think we've probably seen everything we're gonna see on that front. I have "moved on" though I still appreciate the character. With Garrus, there is a great chance for more content so I am here actively talking and "petitioning" if you want to call it that. Saying people in these threads have no lives or focus on made-up characters too much is actually missing the point a little. If there was an active Carth Onasi thread or a Viconia deVir thread, well THEN I would start getting concerned....Moving threads to some new forum is not going to remove the feeling of competition. Most of the "competition" comments I have seen are about number of posts or number of pages anyway. I don't hear people saying "Oh no, *insert character* thread is not on the first page" but rather "Oh no! Character A's thread has 1000 pages and our thread only has 500! What will we do?!" I don't care where you put the threads. People will still compare on the basis on length.
Some people claim the character threads are muddying up the forum. (Also known as you can't have the cake and eat it both.) Most of the big discussions about story stuff in these forums revolve around two main things A) characters (namely squaddies) and
morality choices. People who complain that constant discussion of characters is preventing other interesting topics from getting noticed also fail to recognize something. Most of the more interesting moral conundrums in the game are presented to you by your squaddies. (The genophage via Mordian and Wrex, issues with AI via Tali and Legion.) Without those characters you miss a lot of the data that lets you make informed morality decisions. The same thing is true of tactics. Meaningful discussions of tactics have got to entail squaddies power usage, squaddie commands, squaddie AI, and what weapon's your companions have. Remove in-depth character discussion and you remove a very large portion of what is worth discussing in the game. Most of the character support threads are spring-boards to other topics. Want to discuss turians or sniping? Go to the Garrus thread. Asari? Go to the Liara thread. It is actually quite organized. It just happens to be organized on the basis of character. I think it's better than starting a new thread for every new topic under the sun. THAT would muddy up the forums. Does anybody remember the chaos of the forums right after the game came out BEFORE the arrival of the character threads and other more general topic threads? How many "I want same-sex romance threads" were there before a group got organized specifically for that? How many people complained about all the Tali threads? Now the Talimancers have a place to go. If you can't stand them, well, they are all in the same place. Now you can avoid them.Some people claim that these threads foster competition. I actually say they save a lot of competition. Just post a comment about how much you like Zaeed or dislike Wrex in the general forums somewhere and see how often you get attacked. It's better for those guys if they have a safe environment with people who have similar opinions. Then they can discuss them without having to constantly defend themselves. Being attacked all the time makes you nasty and defensive and more prone to attacking yourself. I also acknowledge that this leads to groupthink within a thread, but if the members of a particular thread never venture out of their thread then it doesn't matter. I think most people remain quite civil until actively challenged and if they are never challenged than most of their chatter about "those other character threads" is largely idle and not directly provocative. In other words, yes, I admit thread members do get ridiculously proud of their own threads, but I also think that because they feel safe in those threads they are mostly prone to leaving members of other fandoms alone. This may produce fragmentation, but it also produces peace.
People who complain about the focus some players put on the romances are failing to consider some very important points. I actually think even some Bioware devs are guilty of this one. Bioware makes fantastic characters. They grab people. People love them or hate them, but you can't ignore them. Bioware is a master at creating meaningful relationships within games. In fact I think they do it better than anyone else out there. Do they make good stories? Yes. But I think other people make better stories. Do their games have good gameplay? Mostly yes, but again I can think of many others that I think do it better. Squaddie interaction is the one thing where Bioware is king of the hill for me. It is a major identifier. In fact, I'd say it is their MAIN identifier. Romance is just a natural extension of character interaction. The reason I focus so much on romance in Bioware games is not because that's all I want in a game. I do it because I think Bioware does romance better than anybody else. I think Insomniac comes up with the absolute best weapons in games so when I'm on those forums I talk about weapons. That's what draws me to Insomniac games. When I'm here, I usually talk about the romances, not because it is all Bioware has to offer but because it is one of the most unique things Bioware has to offer. I focus on the aspects of the game that I consider the strongest points of the game and for me in Mass Effect those are: character interaction (specifically romance) and world-building. I'm not inordinately focused on those things in all games. I just think those particular things are inordinately good in Bioware games so it stands to reason they would grab my attention.
I could rant some more but I think that's enough. In short, I like the support threads. I'm glad they are here, and while I understand that some people don't like having to joining a "clan" I personally don't want the threads to go anywhere. I think they provide cohesion and they give me a sense of community. Before I got into "Clan Vakarian" I felt like anything I had to say just vanished in a general faceless sea of forumites. Now I feel like what I say actually gets read, commented on, and thought about. That makes me quite happy.
Yet another wall of text.
Oh well.
#20904
Posté 20 mai 2010 - 01:41
LOLandStuff
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I don't remember where I read that's his C-Sec armour and the eagle is C-Sec seal.
#20905
Posté 20 mai 2010 - 01:52
LOLandStuff
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kglaser wrote...
I'll
always be kinda bummed out for what might have been if we'd seen more
of him. It's really a testament to the strength of his character,
short-lived though it was, that many wonder things about him and would
have liked to see more, even though he was only in the game for a few
minutes.
I think for me part of the strength of the impression is
that's the first turian you see in the game and it definitely made a
mark on me. They are such striking entities. Esp. Nihlus with that
awesome facepaint pattern.
When I first saw Nihlus I was certain I'll have him in my party for the rest of the game. He had the most elaborated facepaint and his armour was unique. Jenkins died and I thought he made place for Nihlus, but then Ashley joined and I said to myself that she won't stay long since she was stationed here, so she'll leave soon enough and Nihlus will take her place...and then he died.
Modifié par LOLandStuff, 20 mai 2010 - 01:53 .
#20906
Posté 20 mai 2010 - 01:55
kglaser
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Dammit. Just...dammit.
I could hardly talk to Ash last night. She's so xenophobic and human-centric. I didn't even want to speak to her. But I wanted the XP or whatever.
I could hardly talk to Ash last night. She's so xenophobic and human-centric. I didn't even want to speak to her. But I wanted the XP or whatever.
#20907
Posté 20 mai 2010 - 01:56
Minardii
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Interesting Raga; I do like the character threads too, since discussions about characters and races can be found in them.. better than sifting through all of the posts, and getting things like "Well, I hate him because he whines!".. And then you have an argument about that! Hee.
I can see how people may be worried that everyone just goes off into their own "groups" and never interact with the others outside that thread.. But hey, some people like that.
Edit: Hahaha KG. Would you believe I tried to talk to Ashley ONCE (at her normal spot across from garrus), and she was like "NOPE, even after you just saved my ass, i'm going to do OTHER THINGS". Ah man, I got angry at how she just brushed me off so fast when I just wanted to talk.. And never spoke to her again. Whoops!
I can see how people may be worried that everyone just goes off into their own "groups" and never interact with the others outside that thread.. But hey, some people like that.
Edit: Hahaha KG. Would you believe I tried to talk to Ashley ONCE (at her normal spot across from garrus), and she was like "NOPE, even after you just saved my ass, i'm going to do OTHER THINGS". Ah man, I got angry at how she just brushed me off so fast when I just wanted to talk.. And never spoke to her again. Whoops!
Modifié par Minardii, 20 mai 2010 - 01:57 .
#20908
Posté 20 mai 2010 - 01:56
Mr.BlazenGlazen
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LOLandStuff wrote...
kglaser wrote...
I'll
always be kinda bummed out for what might have been if we'd seen more
of him. It's really a testament to the strength of his character,
short-lived though it was, that many wonder things about him and would
have liked to see more, even though he was only in the game for a few
minutes.
I think for me part of the strength of the impression is
that's the first turian you see in the game and it definitely made a
mark on me. They are such striking entities. Esp. Nihlus with that
awesome facepaint pattern.
When I first saw Nihlus I was certain I'll have him in my party for the rest of the game. He had the most elaborated facepaint and his armour was unique. Jenkins died and I thought he made place for Nihlus, but then Ashley joined and I said to myself that she won't stay long since she was stationed here, so she'll leave soon enough and Nihlus will take her place...and then he died.
Conrand: He was a cool guy, and then he DIED
#20909
Posté 20 mai 2010 - 02:01
kglaser
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Minardii wrote...
Edit: Hahaha KG. Would you believe I tried to talk to Ashley ONCE (at her normal spot across from garrus), and she was like "NOPE, even after you just saved my ass, i'm going to do OTHER THINGS". Ah man, I got angry at how she just brushed me off so fast when I just wanted to talk.. And never spoke to her again. Whoops!
What kills me is she says something like, do you think we should be giving the aliens free range of the Normandy's weapons systems? bla bla bla, and specifically mentions Garrus and Wrex as not being trustworthy...and each of them are standing ~10 feet away from her. LOL, smooth Ash
#20910
Posté 20 mai 2010 - 02:02
Mariquis
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I'm pretty sure they used Nihlus' model for a dude in the police station during Samara's recruitment. Identical face paint, dark plating, green eyes. I think the armor is even the same. I am desperately clinging to the hope now that he wasn't really dead and will come back. Ahh, idle fancies.
#20912
Posté 20 mai 2010 - 02:08
Minardii
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Maybe she meant it like that! "Oh, Commander's with me, I'll diss the GIANT KROGAN and the calibratin' fool, they won't do anything while they're here..", that or a safer way to just say she just didn't like it, while in earshot.. or they didn't think about it scripting the lines!
I also kept her helmet toggled on... <<.
I also kept her helmet toggled on... <<.
#20913
Posté 20 mai 2010 - 02:11
Mr.BlazenGlazen
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i'm not to big of a fan of ash or kaidan...sorry to anyone who is a fan reading this.
#20914
Guest_Raga_*
Posté 20 mai 2010 - 02:11
Guest_Raga_*
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kglaser wrote...
Minardii wrote...
Edit: Hahaha KG. Would you believe I tried to talk to Ashley ONCE (at her normal spot across from garrus), and she was like "NOPE, even after you just saved my ass, i'm going to do OTHER THINGS". Ah man, I got angry at how she just brushed me off so fast when I just wanted to talk.. And never spoke to her again. Whoops!
What kills me is she says something like, do you think we should be giving the aliens free range of the Normandy's weapons systems? bla bla bla, and specifically mentions Garrus and Wrex as not being trustworthy...and each of them are standing ~10 feet away from her. LOL, smooth Ash
Have you guys ever noticed that when you meet Kaidan and Ashley on Horizon, Garrus calls Kaidan by his first name but he calls Ashley "Williams?"
Also, since I brought it up. Things I don't like about Garrus: He is really insensitive to other people's racial issues. I like to think he got over it, but I can't prove he did. He says some very nasty stuff to Wrex and Tali in ME1. I always felt kind of guilty because I really liked him but I did NOT like what he said there. I wish I could confront him about it.
I think he flakes out on stuff too easily. He has a tendency to just quit if he doesn't like how people do things. He always thinks in extremes and he's very impulsive. If he would just chill and focus on something in the middle for once, I think he'd get a lot more done and do himself a world of good. I admire his spirit and willingness to listen, but his reasoning just baffles me sometimes.
It bugs me that he won't speak his mind more when he really should. Like if he really did have a problem with Cerberus that is actually something I should know about because it might affect the mission. But he says nothing. Likewise, he says nothing about his personal issues which means he's either afraid or he thinks he can handle it himself. That means either A) a species of cowardice or
a gross overestimation of his own abilities to sort stuff out. I think he is a little proud, the sort who really values his "dignity."Ok, Garrus trashing over. And like I said, I really love him. But sometimes I don't know if I want to hug him or slap him.
#20915
Posté 20 mai 2010 - 02:17
kglaser
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Mr.BlazenGlazen wrote...
i'm not to big of a fan of ash or kaidan...sorry to anyone who is a fan reading this.
Nor I. I think it's fine if we don't like a character if we don't just sit around and say, Oh they suck, and give no reasons...the post I made is one significant reason I don't like Ash. I'm not a big Kai fan either, especially after what he did to my Kaidan-romancing FemShep in ME2, but it's not worth belaboring the point. people are free to like whom they like. There's nothing wrong with us if we don't like them, just as there's nothing wrong with someone who doesn't like Garrus (as long as they don't just say "oh he sucks 'cause I said so." LOL).
eta:
Minardil wrote:
I also kept her helmet toggled on... <<.
Modifié par kglaser, 20 mai 2010 - 02:18 .
#20916
Posté 20 mai 2010 - 02:19
Minardii
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No, I didn't notice Raga! haha, Poor Poor Ash. Some people love her to death, she's just not one of my favs ;x.
I guess I'm a bit funny, I usually won't notice or really think about character flaws, just the few times where they might be a bit of a pain in my eyes.. And then I'll forget about it!
I guess I'm a bit funny, I usually won't notice or really think about character flaws, just the few times where they might be a bit of a pain in my eyes.. And then I'll forget about it!
#20917
Posté 20 mai 2010 - 02:23
Mr.BlazenGlazen
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ash doesn't trust aliens simply because shes paranoid about the first contact war. She knows that other alien races are Superior to human technology and she and the alliance knows that they can wipe them out any time they want to. She and kaidan are jumpy about that, though still doesn't give them a good reason to completely distrust garrus, wrex, and tali.
#20918
Posté 20 mai 2010 - 02:27
Sand King
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Except Kaidan killed an alien by accidentMr.BlazenGlazen wrote...
ash doesn't trust aliens simply because shes paranoid about the first contact war. She knows that other alien races are Superior to human technology and she and the alliance knows that they can wipe them out any time they want to. She and kaidan are jumpy about that, though still doesn't give them a good reason to completely distrust garrus, wrex, and tali.
#20919
Posté 20 mai 2010 - 02:29
Mr.BlazenGlazen
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he did what?Sand King wrote...
Except Kaidan killed an alien by accidentMr.BlazenGlazen wrote...
ash doesn't trust aliens simply because shes paranoid about the first contact war. She knows that other alien races are Superior to human technology and she and the alliance knows that they can wipe them out any time they want to. She and kaidan are jumpy about that, though still doesn't give them a good reason to completely distrust garrus, wrex, and tali.
#20920
Posté 20 mai 2010 - 02:31
kglaser
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Haha, I just remembered a thread from the old board where someone got upset because Ashley made that analogy about your dog fighting a bear. He thought humans were inferior to dogs and he thought the dog should live while the human died fighting the bear and he was deeply offended at the game for killing the (hypothetical) dog.
Then someone came into the thread and wrote, "This thread is an insane asylum." LOL!
Then someone came into the thread and wrote, "This thread is an insane asylum." LOL!
#20921
Guest_Raga_*
Posté 20 mai 2010 - 02:32
Guest_Raga_*
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Mr.BlazenGlazen wrote...
ash doesn't trust aliens simply because shes paranoid about the first contact war. She knows that other alien races are Superior to human technology and she and the alliance knows that they can wipe them out any time they want to. She and kaidan are jumpy about that, though still doesn't give them a good reason to completely distrust garrus, wrex, and tali.
Well, plus her grandfather got a really raw deal over Shanxi. To most humans Shanxi is sensitive topic. To her it is a gaping wound because her family was the human scapegoat for it. Humanity couldn't pay the turians back so they took it out of her grandfather. And her father and her. I'd get pretty upset too. Doesn't validate paranoia I know, but I don't think she's just pulling it out of her butt either.
#20922
Posté 20 mai 2010 - 02:32
kglaser
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Mr.BlazenGlazen wrote...
he did what?Sand King wrote...
Except Kaidan killed an alien by accidentMr.BlazenGlazen wrote...
ash doesn't trust aliens simply because shes paranoid about the first contact war. She knows that other alien races are Superior to human technology and she and the alliance knows that they can wipe them out any time they want to. She and kaidan are jumpy about that, though still doesn't give them a good reason to completely distrust garrus, wrex, and tali.
He killed his turian biotics instructor.
#20923
Posté 20 mai 2010 - 02:36
Mr.BlazenGlazen
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kglaser wrote...
Mr.BlazenGlazen wrote...
he did what?Sand King wrote...
Except Kaidan killed an alien by accidentMr.BlazenGlazen wrote...
ash doesn't trust aliens simply because shes paranoid about the first contact war. She knows that other alien races are Superior to human technology and she and the alliance knows that they can wipe them out any time they want to. She and kaidan are jumpy about that, though still doesn't give them a good reason to completely distrust garrus, wrex, and tali.
He killed his turian biotics instructor.
oh....oh hell no >=(
#20924
Posté 20 mai 2010 - 02:37
Sand King
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Yep, that will get you more than detentionkglaser wrote...
Mr.BlazenGlazen wrote...
he did what?Sand King wrote...
Except Kaidan killed an alien by accidentMr.BlazenGlazen wrote...
ash doesn't trust aliens simply because shes paranoid about the first contact war. She knows that other alien races are Superior to human technology and she and the alliance knows that they can wipe them out any time they want to. She and kaidan are jumpy about that, though still doesn't give them a good reason to completely distrust garrus, wrex, and tali.
He killed his turian biotics instructor.
#20925
Guest_Raga_*
Posté 20 mai 2010 - 02:37
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In Kaidan's defense that guy was a capitol A ****. I love turians on principle and I still say that guy deserved what he got.
