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Nivenus wrote...

In regards to letting Garrus do what he wants with Saleon and Sidonis, this is a case of him slipping. He shows dangerous tendencies of recklessness and brutality and while I feel it's unlikely he would go all "muahahaha!" on us, I can definitely see him becoming a templar like figure who forgets what he's really fighting for and becomes more obsessed with vengeance and less with justice.

I hope not.

Shepard's job in the paragon route is to remind Garrus of the value of mercy and of letting things go.

Saleon and Sidonis need to be punished. Sidonis may have betrayed Garrus' team to save his family, but that should also mean that Sidonis is willing to sacrifice his own life for that same family. And considering Sidonis pretty much hates his life right now, killing him can be said to be mercy. I don't think stopping Garrus from killing Saleon or Sidonis is the wrong answer, but I don't think the renegade route is wrong either. Both are taking care of the problem.

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julian08 wrote...

silentstephi wrote...


Wrex is too, for the matter. I just found out today that one of the conditions that can get Wrex to stand down is to NOT recruit Garrus (blasphemy!)

What? That's an option? (well, not really, but in theory)
What happens in ME2 if you do that?

A virtual fist comes out of the screen and punches you in the face

[Nivenus]

julian08 wrote...

silentstephi wrote...


Wrex is too, for the matter. I just found out today that one of the conditions that can get Wrex to stand down is to NOT recruit Garrus (blasphemy!)

What? That's an option? (well, not really, but in theory)
What happens in ME2 if you do that?

I recall reading (on this thread I believe) that your actions still inspire Garrus to leave C-Sec and become a vigilante hero on Omega. In this case, it's more hero worship that turns into friendship than a friendship that becomes something more (bromance / romance). Which can then turn into something more.

I think Shepard also calls Garrus something like "Officer Vakarian?" when he sees him unmask rather than "Garrus."

Not sure though, because I never picked that purely hypothetical option.

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I think so far as an example of what chaotic good/Garrus may become after "going off the wall," Punisher may be one. I imagine that if you renegade Garrus twice he's going to be less forgiving about criminals in general.

[Nivenus]

Collider wrote...

Saleon and Sidonis need to be punished. Sidonis may have betrayed Garrus' team to save his family, but that should also mean that Sidonis is willing to sacrifice his own life for that same family. And considering Sidonis pretty much hates his life right now, killing him can be said to be mercy. I don't think stopping Garrus from killing Saleon or Sidonis is the wrong answer, but I don't think the renegade route is wrong either. Both are taking care of the problem.

You don't think killing Saleon and Sidonis is closer to self-indulgent vengeance than justice? They're unarmed and capturing Saleon is (theoretically) an option while killing Sidonis is effectively cold-blooded murder.

I'm not saying that from a certain mindset one can't justify it, but they're definitely on that slippery slope from "delivering justice" to "wreaking vengeance." And once you cross that line you go from Batman to the Punisher and from the Punisher to Rorschach.

Modifié par Nivenus, 20 mai 2010 - 08:16 .

[Cerrydd]

I don't think renegading Garrus will make him evil or something. Garrus is a good person at heart, always willing to do the job right and to make sure the galaxy is safe and that will never change. Renegading him will probably keep him as impulsive and passionate as he already is. Paragoning him would probably make him think before he acts. Well, at least I think hope so.

There's a big difference between Saleon and Sidonis. Saleon knows exactly what he's doing and he even chooses to continue his disgusting experiments. You can't keep him alive, so I don't care if you shoot him or let Garrus take the shot. Sidonis knows exactly what he has done, but regrets it and won't do it again. The biggest difference is that the Sidonis **** is personal, Saleon is not. This fuels Garrus even more to do what he wants, but I just want to make him think about it, because the world is not as black and white as he thought. Unfortunately. Black and white would make it all a bit easier . But grey is very interesting.

(btw, why do the smilies always change places? That sucks)

[Cerrydd]

Nivenus wrote...

I recall reading (on this thread I believe) that your actions still inspire Garrus to leave C-Sec and become a vigilante hero on Omega. In this case, it's more hero worship that turns into friendship than a friendship that becomes something more (bromance / romance). Which can then turn into something more.

I think Shepard also calls Garrus something like "Officer Vakarian?" when he sees him unmask rather than "Garrus."

Not sure though, because I never picked that purely hypothetical option.

As I recall (from reading this wonderful thread) is that if you turn down Garrus in ME1, he still resigns C-Sec (immediately?). And Shep will say "Garrus Vakarian?" instead of just "Garrus" when he sees Garrus in ME2

[Nivenus]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

Nivenus wrote...

In regards to letting Garrus do what he wants with Saleon and Sidonis, this is a case of him slipping. He shows dangerous tendencies of recklessness and brutality and while I feel it's unlikely he would go all "muahahaha!" on us, I can definitely see him becoming a templar like figure who forgets what he's really fighting for and becomes more obsessed with vengeance and less with justice. Shepard's job in the paragon route is to remind Garrus of the value of mercy and of letting things go.

I agree with this also.  I definitely think full on renegade Garrus slips.  My canon paragade Shep actually renegades him in the first game and then when she sees him shoot Harkin in ME2, she actually realizes he is slipping to far and steps in and doesn't let him shoot Sidonis.  I'm interested to see how that plays out in ME3.  I think renegade Garrus should and will go full on darker.  I just don't even think he'll become a true sadist or become like Saren.  I don't see him as a templar.  That's more what happens when a lawful good type goes off the wall.  I don't know an appropriate analogy for what Garrus would become.  What happens when a chaotic good type goes off-the-wall?

According to TV Trope it's not a lawful-specific trope but I certainly see your point. If you prefer we can call him a well-intentioned extremist.

I'm also unsure just how far Renegade!Garrus would slip, but I'm sure it could get pretty damn far if Renegade!Shepard keeps... on... encouraging... him. But, no, I don't see him becoming a villain, so to speak. After all, if you're pushing him that far, it's likely you agree with him, so just by dramatic convention he's still a protagonist.

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Nivenus wrote...

Collider wrote...

Saleon and Sidonis need to be punished. Sidonis may have betrayed Garrus' team to save his family, but that should also mean that Sidonis is willing to sacrifice his own life for that same family. And considering Sidonis pretty much hates his life right now, killing him can be said to be mercy. I don't think stopping Garrus from killing Saleon or Sidonis is the wrong answer, but I don't think the renegade route is wrong either. Both are taking care of the problem.

You don't think killing Saleon and Sidonis is closer to self-indulgent vengeance than justice?

No I don't.

Saleon needs to be punished in general. He experimented on live subjects and made him die horrible deaths just for money and sadistic scientific experimentation. He's hardly sympathetic. Killing him would just be eye for an eye.

Sidonis needs to be punished in general. No one else is going to do this aside from Garrus and Shepard.

They're unarmed and capturing Saleon is (theoretically) an option while killing Sidonis is effectively cold-blooded murder.

It's not Garrus killing innocents. Neither of them are innocent, they both caused deaths.

I'm not saying that from a certain mindset one can't justify it, but they're definitely on that slippery slope from "delivering justice" to "wreaking vengeance." And once you cross that line you go from Batman to the Punisher and from the Punisher to Rorschach.

I do think what Garrus is doing is justice. Saleon and Sidonis both had innocent people killed - they shouldn't expect to go off free after doing that.

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Nivenus wrote...
I'm also unsure just how far Renegade!Garrus would slip, but I'm sure it could get pretty damn far if Renegade!Shepard keeps... on... encouraging... him. But, no, I don't see him becoming a villain, so to speak. After all, if you're pushing him that far, it's likely you agree with him, so just by dramatic convention he's still a protagonist.

Yes. My Paragade Shepard (who is my canon Shepard) is just agreeing with Garrus so Garrus becoming a different person would be weird and uncaleld for.

[Nivenus]

Collider wrote...

I do think what Garrus is doing is justice. Saleon and Sidonis both had innocent people killed - they shouldn't expect to go off free after doing that.

With Saleon, you're right. With Sidonis, you're wrong. While you might think of it as justice (and I'm not going to argue that) it's not what's going through Garrus' head. He's in it for revenge and he comes pretty damn close to saying as much.

As for whether it's murder or not, ultimately, it depends on your moral perspective, but in my mind killing any unarmed man without offering them a chance to surrender is morally wrong. I have no problem killing Saleon when he refuses to surrender though. However, Sidonis is completely unarmed and no threat to anyone at all. Forgiveness and mercy are the marks of a good man and Garrus giving into his urge to kill an old friend, while not making him Sidonis (becauase his motivations entirely different) is a slippery slope to losing sight of justice.

[Cerrydd]

Oh dear, Sidonis again. In short: did 10 men die because of what he did? Yes. Did he kill these men himself? No. Is he a coward? Yes. Will he do this again? No.

I'm not going to discuss Sidonis again with walls of text, because I hate listening to my own broken record. I can't think of anything new, so I'll just keep repeating myself.

But, I'm going to say something new: if you kill Sidonis, do it after he explained himself. Sidonis happy, Garrus happy.

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Nivenus wrote...

Collider wrote...

I do think what Garrus is doing is justice. Saleon and Sidonis both had innocent people killed - they shouldn't expect to go off free after doing that.

With Saleon, you're right. With Sidonis, you're wrong. While you might think of it as justice (and I'm not going to argue that) it's not what's going through Garrus' head. He's in it for revenge and he comes pretty damn close to saying as much.

It's revenge for Sidonis having people killed. Obviously Garrus thinks this is justice otherwise it's not likely that he would be doing this if he thought Sidonis didn't deserve it (which is exactly what justice is - what people do and do not deserve).

As for whether it's murder or not, ultimately, it depends on your moral perspective, but in my mind killing any unarmed man without offering them a chance to surrender is morally wrong.

Surrender? Who is Sidonis going to surrender to? Garrus is not part of C-Sec anymore. Shepard may be a Spectre depending on your actions but what is Shepard or Citadel courts going to charge Sidonis with? Everything happened on Omega, a lawless mercenary nexus and Garrus probably does not have much in the way of convincing evidence for third parties of legal standing. So what is Sidonis going to be surrendering to? What would that entail?

[Nivenus]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

Well, I'd agree with you to a point but with two qualifications. There is a difference in revenge and avengement or at least I think there is. And who is Sidonis going to surrender to? If he turns himself in C-Sec can't do anything with him. There is no legal action that can be taken against him. I don't think it's fair for him to just be able to walk away. Either Garrus has to do something or Sidonis has to do something. I agree that Garrus should try to persuade Sidonis to do something (which is why I don't let him kill Sidonis) but when you realize there isn't much Sidonis can really do, I don't think Garrus killing him is unfair or unethical. It is tragic, but I don't think it's malicious.

He surrenders to you. He doesn't deserve to die, because he's willing to change. Killing him doesn't fix anything. It won't bring back the dead.

As Gandalf said: "Do not be so eager to take what you cannot give (life, that is)." Sort of. Paraphrased. It's something like that.

Saleon's different, because he's clearly unwilling to change and is still hurting innocents, though I still give him a chance to surrender because there is at least theoretically chance for him to be tried, unlike Sidonis, whose actions are covered by no law.

Modifié par Nivenus, 20 mai 2010 - 08:38 .

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Nivenus wrote...
He surrenders to you.

But what does that even mean? The point of going there the first place was to kill him.

He doesn't deserve to die, because he's willing to change.

We don't know that. Realistically we cannot excuse people for what they've done just because they say that they want to change. I do think a person like certain tyrants and serial killers would deserve to die even if they wanted to change. They need to be punished and simply wanting to change isn't enough.

Killing him doesn't fix anything. It won't bring back the dead.

That is a good point. Killing him does fix something though - Garrus' torment. It gives Garrus peace of mind. So does talking to Sidonis and letting him go. Both are two justifiable means to the same ends. It's also justice.

[Nivenus]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

Cerrydd wrote...

Oh dear, Sidonis again. In short: did 10 men die because of what he did? Yes. Did he kill these men himself? No. Is he a coward? Yes. Will he do this again? No.

I'm not going to discuss Sidonis again with walls of text, because I hate listening to my own broken record. I can't think of anything new, so I'll just keep repeating myself.

But, I'm going to say something new: if you kill Sidonis, do it after he explained himself. Sidonis happy, Garrus happy.

Yes, but I don't think about such things in terms of rehabilitation or preventing future crimes.  I tend to think in terms of balance and punishment.  I think Sidonis deserves to be punished for what he has done because what he has done is wrong.  Whether he will do it again in the future is for me irrelevant.  Again, I don't let Garrus kill Sidonis, but I do it for Garrus' mental health not because I think Sidonis is worth saving.

Sorry if that comes off combative.  I don't mean it that way. 

This is important too and it's almost as important a reason to me. It should be hard to kill people. It shouldn't come as a first reflex instance and letting Garrus kill an old friend, no matter their crime, is going to break down his emotional barrier to pulling the trigger. It'll make killing easy, which is a bad way to go.

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Agree with Raga.

[Nivenus]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

How can I explain? Say I murder my spouse because my spouse was a horrible cad. I am otherwise a very peaceful person and am not a threat to anyone else. If left alone I will never murder again. Say I even genuinely regret killing my spouse. Does that mean I should not go to prison for murder? And with Sidonis, as I said, prison is not an option because there is no legal authority for him to answer to. Garrus options are: kill him or let him go and hope he tries to atone in some way. I can see both sides there.

Going to prison is a punishment that still allows you the freedom of choice that is essential to sapience. It limits your choices, yes, but that is the cost of depriving another being of their choices entirely.

Killing you, on the other hand, is simply committing another wrong. It's depriving the world of the potential of two people, rather than just one. Even though it would be "balanced," in my mind, it would make the world a worse off place. Who knows what you could have done after killing your horrible spouse? You might have gone on to save another person's life.

Because we can't predict the future, it's essential for us to make the safe moral choices and not be so eager to deprive others of their potential.

My opinion, of course, but I've thought about it a great deal.

[Cerrydd]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

Yes, but I don't think about such things in terms of rehabilitation or preventing future crimes.  I tend to think in terms of balance and punishment.  I think Sidonis deserves to be punished for what he has done because what he has done is wrong.  Whether he will do it again in the future is for me irrelevant.  Again, I don't let Garrus kill Sidonis, but I do it for Garrus' mental health not because I think Sidonis is worth saving.

Sorry if that comes off combative.  I don't mean it that way.

Well, I do think of the future. Sidonis might have done something wrong, but he's not a criminal. He joined Garrus' team to get rid of some (evil) mercs, not to get Garrus killed. Sidonis was theatened and a lot of people will succomb under this pressure. He is a coward, but not a mean person. That's why I think about the future. Sidonis betraying Garrus had tragical consequences, for both of them. I think that Sidonis deserves a second chance, because I know he has good intentions. Garrus lost his team (and probably friends), but so did Sidonis, and it's not like he's completely unaffected by it. He knows what he's done, he regrets his coice, he doesn't enjoy anything in life anymore. I give him that chance to make it up, and I'm eager to see what he will do about it. Unless BW minimizes Sidonis' role to an e-mail...

But if it turns out he screwed up again, I won't be that merciful.

And no need to apologize, we are in the Garrus thread after all

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Nivenus, they were willing to deprive someone else of their right to live - someone who is innocent. That coupled with Sidonis' circumstance does not make killing him feel wrong to me at all. Part of being safe means when we need to stop criminals from continuing what they have done in the past. It's a two sided coin - sparing someone death can mean they do better in life or they could do worse and continue the evils they had once done.