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[Nivenus]

Collider wrote...

Nivenus, they were willing to deprive someone else of their right to live - someone who is innocent. That coupled with Sidonis' circumstance does not make killing him feel wrong to me at all. Part of being safe means when we need to stop criminals from continuing what they have done in the past. It's a two sided coin - sparing someone death can mean they do better in life or they could do worse and continue the evils they had once done.

Of course it's a risk. But people tend towards neutral or virtuous actions more than they tend towards evil (I know that's an opinion, but studies do seem to show that people in crises tend towards communitarianism). Sidonis' clear remorse shows he's willing to change. That's reason enough to give him the chance in my opinion.

I understand that you feel differently, but there it is. I guess I'm just more optimistic.

EDIT: Top post.

Now for some well-needed humor.

Modifié par Nivenus, 20 mai 2010 - 08:52 .

[Nivenus]

I can see both sides as well. In fact, I strive to. Everyone thinks they're the hero. But I always chose mercy, unless I am literally left with no other alternative.

[Nilfalasiel]

Incoming WoT.

Kim Shepard wrote...

...I think I'm getting most of the squadmate conversation too early. xD Feros is the only main mission I've finished, but I did a lot of sidequests, and I've already done the Saleon mission, retrieved Wrex's family armor, heard the "it's getting close to the end" conversation from Tali and the "what to do about Saren" conversation from Garrus. (By the way, it's kind of sad keeping him in character to say "When I find him, he dies." Hey, MaleShep, Saren's my favorite...) I'm going to finish Liara's recruitment tonight, so my MaleShep will just have to be very careful around her. It seems like his "xenophobia" and religion conversations with Ashley have stopped the romance (her sister mentioned Kaidan in the vid-mail), but he was nice during the conversation about her sister and she called him skipper, so I'm not really sure what happened with that.

Did she call you "skipper" during the convo or at the end of it, after Shep says "talk to you later"? If she just says "skipper" during the convo, that's fine. If she says "skipper" at the end, when you leave, you're romancing her.

And on my first playthrough, I had Garrus giving me the "I've learned a lot" speech before even starting Feros (I go Therum - Feros - Noveria), which just felt really odd, as we technically hadn't even started looking for Saren. So yeah, you can get the alien squadmate convos very early. Ash and Kaidan have convos after the main missions as well. Liara has some dialogue after Noveria, but I'm not sure if she does after Feros.

Also, I just thought I'd mention this because I listened to one of Kaidan's conversations today, probably the one right before he talks about killing the turian. Apparently, the Alliance hired turian mercs to teach those kids biotics. >_>; Really, Alliance? Turian mercenaries, right after the First Contact War? They didn't think that was a bad idea?

It wasn't Alliance though, it was a private company called Conatix, if I remember it correctly. The company closed down after the Vyrnnus incident.

As for Ashley's xenophobia, what I don't understand is that she should really be blaming the Alliance more than aliens in general. They're the ones responsible for her grandfather getting shafted after Shanxi, and the blame falling on her entire family for generations. If I were her, I'd have a chip on my shoulder about a kilometer long. As things stand though, she just seems to hate politicians, and that's it. I found that a little puzzling. This is also partly why I always leave her on Virmire: it just seems like a royal final "F U" to the Alliance on her part. She ensures that the mission is successful, and now the Alliance owes their own reject a huge debt. It's tragic, but it's also poetic justice; I find it's a perfect conclusion to her personal backstory.

But going back to her being more pissed off at aliens than the Alliance. Fair enough, I can understand why she'd be sore about turians, but she seems to be distrustful of aliens in general, regardless of what they did or didn't do to her personally. I mean, when I heard her comment about "I can't tell the aliens from the animals" on the Citadel, I literally went "wait...what???" That's as close to racism as she can get, even though I'd otherwise term her a xenophobe.

As for Garrus calling her "Williams" on Horizon, as opposed to him calling Kaidan by name, that just confirms my personal opinion that Garrus was closer to Kaidan than to her. I'm pretty sure neither Wrex nor Tali liked her much either: it's kinda hard to bond with someone who doubts you by default.

On the topic of Garrus and elevator conversations: I've only ever gotten ONE convo between him and Wrex, about how he was surprised at Wrex's battle discipline, because he pretty much thought all krogan were bloodthirsty thugs. I know there's more, but I've never heard them. I've also never had him talk to Tali, even after taking 5 consecutive elevator rides. Is there a cutoff point in the game for elevator banter or something? Because I really feel like I'm missing out on a huge chunk of relationship between Garrus and Tali, and I'm not sure why.

As a matter of fact, does any pair of squaddies have banter in ME1? Or are there pairs that never talk to each other? (eg. Tali and Liara don't seem like they'd have much to talk about) I've had convos between Ashley and Kaidan, Ashley and Garrus, Kaidan and Tali, Wrex and Liara, Wrex and Ashley, and that one convo between Wrex and Garrus. Can't remember if I had convos between Kaidan and Garrus...even though that was my squad on my last playthrough.

Concerning Garrus' flaws, I agree with what's been brought up thus far. He definitely suffers from a combination of impulsiveness and excessive pride, which makes him prone to try to solve problems on his own and end up making rash decisions. He's not stupid or incapable, very much the contrary, but his categorical way of thinking is just asking for trouble. I can understand that he wants to deal with his own problems rather than annoy people with them and get in the way of the mission. That's an honourable trait (he's not quite so bad a turian as he thinks), but it's also detrimental in the long run, especially if he's letting his emotions do the talking, rather than his head, like in both Saleon's and Sidonis' case. On my first ME2 playthrough, I honestly wanted to have a "talk to me, Garrus" option after his recruitment mission, when he mentions Sidonis for the first time, then brushes you off. It would be much more helpful for him to vent, every once in a while. To those that say he whines, I'd actually say he doesn't whine enough. That creates situations like his LM, where he's just seething with anger that he simply can't contain anymore, and my Shep is sitting there, thinking "Garrus...what is this mess doing to you? just how far gone are you?" He might think it's a weakness to let his doubts show, which makes his romance all the more endearing, but also makes them even more of a liability to himself.

When I think about it, he actually hasn't loosened up all that much compared to his ME1 self...some of his morality bolts came loose, he blew a professional fuse (again), ramped up the snark meter, but the emotional lid is still on. And the fact that FemShep manages to pry it open a little bit is that much more meaningful.

[Nivenus]

Stoicism seems to be a turian trait. Course, it's also traditionally seen as a male one (I can vouch for this personally) so it may just be that we're only seeing male turians (damn you, BioWare!). Or it could be that male turians are extra emotionally constipated.

[Collider]

Garrus and Tali dialog:

Garrus: The Quarians endangered the whole galaxy when they let the Geth break free. I hope your people are properly contrite, Tali.
Tali: As the Turians are properly contrite for releasing the genophage upon the Krogans?
Garrus: You’re assuming that sterilizing them was a mistake.

Garrus: You seem to be attracting unwanted attention, Tali. Several passersby were staring at you.
Tali:
Many think less of Quarians for traveling in the flotilla, and for
creating the Geth. They see us as scavengers, little better than
thieves.
Garrus: It is natural for people to dislike rootless
wanderers. If Quarians would just settle another homeworld, you would
not run into such concerns.

Garrus: Your choice in armor is awfully limited, Tali. Couldn’t you wear something without a helmet?
Tali: No. Living in the clean environment of the flotilla has weakened our immune systems. The environmental suits protect against diseases.
Garrus: So your people are forever wandering, and now they couldn’t settle if they wanted to. I’m sorry.

Tali: Garrus – if you do not mind me asking – how do you feel about hunting a Turian?
Garrus: Saren is either a traitor or a madman. Taking him down will restore the good name of Turians everywhere.
Tali: Things are different among my people. There are so few of us. We are expected to be loyal, even when it is difficult.

Garrus: I’d love to see what the Normandy can do in a fight.
Tali: How so? The Normandy is built for stealth, not combat.
Garrus: But the stealth drive adds a new tactical level to a space combat as we know it. Surprise attacks, undetected flanking maneuvers…
Tali: If it comes to a fight, I’d prefer a flotilla ship. It’s easier to trust what you’ve worked on yourself.

Tali: Do you ever regret leaving Citadel Security to pursue Saren, Garrus?
Garrus: Fighting a rogue Spectre with countless lives at stake and no regulations to get in the way? I’d say that beats C-Sec.
Tali: I’m pleased that the imminent destruction of all organic life has improved your career opportunities.

Modifié par Collider, 20 mai 2010 - 09:00 .

[Cerrydd]

@ Raga: When you decide to kill your husband, it's murder. That's different from Sidonis. He did not decide to kill Garrus and his team. He did not pick up a gun and shot down the 10 men. He did not approach the mercs to say, "Hey, that Archangel guy? There he is." He was approached by them, threatened to be killed if he didn't tell them. That's the difference in my eyes. He did not decide to give the information so that team would die, but he decided he wanted to live. He was afraid. And a coward. He joined Garrus with good intentions, betrayed him, and regretted it. That's why I don't see him doing it again, he is not a mean person, but a coward. Garrus would probably sacrifice himself to save his team, but not everyone has the guts for that.

[Nivenus]

Collider wrote...

Garrus and Tali dialog:

Garrus: The Quarians endangered the whole galaxy when they let the Geth break free. I hope your people are properly contrite, Tali.
Tali: As the Turians are properly contrite for releasing the genophage upon the Krogans?
Garrus: You’re assuming that sterilizing them was a mistake.

Interesting, especially given Tali's conversation with Wrex about the genophage. Perhaps she does think it was a mistake, she was just being properly snarky to Wrex's baiting her.

Collider wrote...

Garrus: You seem to be attracting unwanted attention, Tali. Several passersby were staring at you.
Tali:
Many think less of Quarians for traveling in the flotilla, and for
creating the Geth. They see us as scavengers, little better than
thieves.
Garrus: It is natural for people to dislike rootless
wanderers. If Quarians would just settle another homeworld, you would
not run into such concerns.

Hmm? Subtle speciesism on Garrus' part? Interesting. Obviously he overcomes it eventually, but it's an interesting touch of how ingrained anti-quarian prejudices are.

Collider wrote...

Garrus: Your choice in armor is awfully limited, Tali. Couldn’t you wear something without a helmet?
Tali: No. Living in the clean environment of the flotilla has weakened our immune systems. The environmental suits protect against diseases.
Garrus: So your people are forever wandering, and now they couldn’t settle if they wanted to. I’m sorry.

Interesting he didn't know that, since ME2 in particular gives the impression that this is a well-known fact. I do remember though that ME1 acted as if it wasn't all that well known. A retcon, perhaps, given that all the players know it by the time ME2 pops up. Or maybe the Terminus Systems inhabitants are simply more familiar with quarian physiology given their exile from Council Space.

Collider wrote...

Tali: Do you ever regret leaving Citadel Security to pursue Saren, Garrus?
Garrus: Fighting a rogue Spectre with countless lives at stake and no regulations to get in the way? I’d say that beats C-Sec.
Tali: I’m pleased that the imminent destruction of all organic life has improved your career opportunities.

Ah, yes, Tali's got a deadpan snarker streak that's so easy to miss if you're not paying attention.

[Nivenus]

I don't think Sidonis is innocent. He's guilty. I just don't think he deserves to die.

[Collider]

It's a tough question Nivenus and I think both routes are right.

[Nivenus]

Collider wrote...

It's a tough question Nivenus and I think both routes are right.

And I respect and understand your opinion, even if I disagree with it.

[Nivenus]

I'm against capital punishment in general, so that's where I'm coming from, just to be clear. I think killing in war's justified, because it's a clear-cut kill or be killed situation, though in a way, I still consider each death a sin. I just accept their necessity as part of the nature of what war is.

[Collider]

Interesting, especially given Tali's conversation with Wrex about the genophage. Perhaps she does think it was a mistake, she was just being properly snarky to Wrex's baiting her.

If I'm not mistaken, this is what Tali says:



Wrex: You Quarians messed up the whole galaxy when you let the Geth break free. Do your people ever talk about it?

Tali: Do the Krogan talk about a foolish war that resulted in the Turians sterilizing your people?

Wrex: All the time.

[Cerrydd]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

Nivenus wrote...

I don't think Sidonis is innocent. He's guilty. I just don't think he deserves to die.

This I can get behind.  Prison would be much better.  Or anything really, but again you enter the problem with their being no legal authority.  Your options are: kill him or talk to him and hope for the best.  It just depends on your outlook I guess.  I'm fifty fifty.  I kill him sometimes and sometimes I let him live, but I always feel sorry for him.  I always wish for a better solution.

Yes, I just think death is too much for this. (my opinion of course) He turns himself in afterwards, but of course C-Sec can't do a thing about it. He probably knew this, but still turns himself in. He could have just go home and forget it. The fact that he at least tries to turn himself in is a good sign for me. Of course it's always a wild bet, but sometimes I'm just an optimist. Heh.

Now we'll wait and see what happens. (please BW, not just an e-mail!)

[Nivenus]

Collider wrote...

Interesting, especially given Tali's conversation with Wrex about the genophage. Perhaps she does think it was a mistake, she was just being properly snarky to Wrex's baiting her.

If I'm not mistaken, this is what Tali says:

Wrex: You Quarians messed up the whole galaxy when you let the Geth break free. Do your people ever talk about it?
Tali: Do the Krogan talk about a foolish war that resulted in the Turians sterilizing your people?
Wrex: All the time.

Yeah, I know. It's just interesting. By itself you can take it in context as thinking that the krogan deserved what they got - sort of how Wrex is subtly implying the quarians got what was coming to them, even though I'm sure he's just barbing her as he tends to do with all characters.

But in light of her conversation with Garrus it seems as though she was just dryly turning around his barb, rather than coldly condemning the krogan.

Which seems more in character, really, though she can be occasionally unforgiving and ruthless.

[Cerrydd]

Nivenus wrote...

I'm against capital punishment in general, so that's where I'm coming from, just to be clear. I think killing in war's justified, because it's a clear-cut kill or be killed situation, though in a way, I still consider each death a sin. I just accept their necessity as part of the nature of what war is.

I haven't even made up my mind about this IRL. Capital punishment is a no-go for me, although I won't shed a tear when a serial killer/rapist dies. I just try to stay out of trouble. And it works. The police stopped me once, but that was only because they were wondering why a 17-years old girl on a bicycle was delivering a Valentine's card at 3 AM in the middle of nowhere.

[Kim Shepard]

My main Shepard is a Paragade too, and she let Garrus kill both Saleon and Sidonis. That's the same thing she would have done. I don't think Garrus will turn into Saren though. I like Saren, but he and Garrus are very different characters... I just think a change that big would be unrealistic. He might get more Renegade, but I doubt he would get any more Renegade than my Shepard, who seems to be somewhere between Garrus and Saren.

@Nilfalasiel: I think she still said "Sir" right when Shepard was leaving. I'm pretty sure of that, because I don't think I've ever heard her say anything else. So my MaleShep might still be safe for now? I haven't saved his talk with Liara yet, but I did look at the options so I could check back here - it was the very first one where he asks how she is, mentions Chakwas, etc. The "tell me about yourself" option goes to the talk about her work, where my Shepard will not make a comment about her job getting lonely because that one sounds like an obvious romance dialogue. I figure the one where he says "you must like something about your job" (neutral response) should be alright. Also, there was that part where Shepard can tell her not to treat him like a test subject, or something like that. xD I haven't tried out the alternate response yet.

And thanks for reminding me, it was Conatix. I guess I thought they were connected with the Alliance, for some reason.

[Nivenus]

In case anyone's wondering, I still end up being paragade on my main, in spite of my merciful inclinations. Must be all the times I punch people. And get pissed off. And occasionally break my morals as the necessities of war.

[Nilfalasiel]

Wow, I didn't realize there was a whole Sidonis debate going on while I was typing that last post

Thanks a lot Collider, that's extremely helpful. And yes, it does show that Garrus has a prejudicial trait. I still don't see the "brother and sister" connection between him and Tali, but at least they do converse quite a lot.

I've already voiced my stance on Sidonis before, but here's a structured version, for the sake of discussion.

- Saleon was a heartless psychopath who never displayed any regret for his actions. Given a chance, he'd do it again, he's proved as much. And yet, I wouldn't kill him, just because a successful case against him relies on evidence and testimony. If he's not there to provide that, it weakens the chances of punishing him. And I believe that lifelong imprisonment (which is most probably what Saleon would've gotten) is a harsher punishment than a quick execution.

- By comparison, Sidonis "only" chickened out. Yes, it had dramatic, horrible consequences, but the point is, he didn't kill in cold blood. He was simply a coward, who buckled under duress, and he's torturing himself over it. Given how clearly he regrets what he's done, I'm certain he'll never do it again and is willing to atone for his mistakes. He turns himself in to the only legal authority he knows, C-Sec, even though he's probably aware that they can't do much. It's the symbolism that matters, in this case. In fact, I always take Garrus to listen to this announcement on the news after his LM. Even if he doesn't react, I believe it's important that he hears it, from an RP perspective.

- However, while the straightforward interpretation of letting Sidonis go is the Paragon line of "giving people a second chance" and "never taking a life unless absolutely necessary", I also see a clear Renegade streak in it. It's not straightforward brutality, but you are letting him live with what he's done. His biggest punishment is what his guilt is doing to him: I can't think of anything more fitting than that. You do something, you live with the consequences. You don't get an easy way out. It's the equivalent of lifelong imprisonment for Saleon, but harsher.

- The way Garrus plans the whole Sidonis scenario comes dangerously close to what Sidonis allowed to be done to the rest of Garrus' team. He sets up an elaborate trap for an unarmed, unsuspecting victim. Heck, he does even worse: Sidonis wasn't actually there to kill any of his teammates. Garrus is most definitely there to pull the trigger. Letting him go through with it would turn him into what he's hunting, in my eyes. And that's definitely not a solution to his problems. It might be short-term relief, but I can't possibly think that it won't have heavier long term consequences. As someone previously mentioned, it makes taking a life a little easier. Especially since Sidonis used to be Garrus' friend: an emotional barrier gets crossed.

- Yes, Sidonis needs to be punished, but no, Garrus doesn't need to have blood on his hands as well for that to happen. No, it's not easy to just let him go, but the right decision isn't always easy, and it's certainly not often black or white. In fact, if you're going the "live with the consequences" line, Sidonis was Garrus' responsibility just as much as his other teammates. This is a consequence he needs to live with. He can't simply wipe the slate clean and start again. This is a living being you're talking about, not just an expendable commodity that you can simply throw away when you're not happy with how it turned out.

[Collider]

I still don't see the "brother and sister" connection between him and Tali, but at least they do converse quite a lot.

It's that they go back and forth with each other but are still friends. Like how I can make fun of my sibling but in reality I don't really mean what I say and I'm on good terms with them. Tali & Garrus are clearly friends IMO.

[Nivenus]

Collider wrote...

I still don't see the "brother and sister" connection between him and Tali, but at least they do converse quite a lot.

It's that they go back and forth with each other but are still friends. Like how I can make fun of my sibling but in reality I don't really mean what I say and I'm on good terms with them. Tali & Garrus are clearly friends IMO.

I don't think they're "brother and sister" like in ME1. But by ME2, I think they are. I think, like Shepard's relationship with each of them, it's something that grows with time.

Garrus is a good friend in ME1, but in all honesty, Wrex felt closer (he was sort of an equal, whereas Garrus was this guy you took under your wing). Likewise with Tali.

By ME2 though, so much has gone on between all three characters that I think it's inevitable they'd be close to one another if they didn't hate eachother (which they don't seem to).