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Garrus Love and Adoration v.2


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#2151
Nightfire78

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So much to comment on...

    I don't think "cold" or "cold-hearted" are really fitting descriptions of Garrus. Aside from not having the Spectre status to "justify" his actions, he's not really doing anything much different from what a Paragon Shep. does. For instance, the batarian bartender who poisons Shep., the Paragon-point enabled charm ability let's you incite the crowd against the bartender and get him killed. Shep. isn't an idiot, so if even I knew that was going to be the likely outcome of inciting them in this manner, I'm sure Shep. knows and that would qualify as calculating in my book, but it's not "cold" or "cold-hearted" because the bottom line is that the guy is a serial killer and the "authorities" (not that there appear to be any on Omega) are obviously not doing or going to do anything about it. You can't just leave him to kill everyone he comes across and doesn't like. It's still calculating, but it's not "evil" or renegade or "cold-hearted". I don't see that Garrus' attempts to stop the mercs from harming innocent civilians is hugely different. Sure he's actually physically fighting them himself, but you can hardly say they're not armed (heck, they even have a gunship) and it's not like he can get them arrested by the non-existant Omega police.

     As for Sidonis, I think Garrus' impulse is understandable given that he knows the police can do nothing about it (as evidenced by the fact that if you stop Garrus and go to the Citadel, you hear Sidonis has turned himself in but c-sec can't even do anything about it then, leaving Sidonis to figure out his own means of penance). And it's not like it's a chess game where figures get knocked out and you can say "good move" to your opponent... people got killed. Really, I think it shows that Garrus is *not* cold-hearted that he backs off when he sees that Sidonis is wracked with guilt about what he's done. If he were cold-hearted he'd have said "ok let him go" and then shot him anyway as soon as he was clear of Shep. Again, I have to say the whole thing isn't that much dif. from things Shep. does... pretend to be a merc ally and then shoot the guys who crossed the bridge ahead of you in the back, that's pretty darn calculating and "cold" as well.
     I think Garrus has a very strong sense of justice and an instinct to protect people, sometimes he just needs someone to go "hey, there's another way we can handle this" (but of course he'll run with it if the person instead says "that's the way to do it Garrus, eye for an eye"). I guess for me, cold or cold-hearted would mean he doesn't care if there is another way, and he doesn't care who gets hurt in the process (ie. if he has to mow down the entire terminal full of people to get Sidonis, that's fine too).

    I also don't think Garrus is a racist. If he were actually racist, he sure wouldn't be running of with a human and taking a human's orders. He is prejudiced based on the past actions of certain peoples, certainly, quarians made the geth, krogans tried to expand all over the place through war, etc., but he doesn't refuse to work with any of them, he doesn't refuse to interact with them, he doesn't throw around slurs about them (as a matter of fact he talks to them directly and factually about the issues he has with the past actions of their peoples) and in the end he obviously judges them on their merit as individual people (the interaction between him and Tali in several areas of ME2 clearly show that they're friends). Comparing that to actual racists I've run into... I'd say he's not a racist :P

    And finally, the initiating line of the romance. I actually liked it or, better said, found it more realistic for Shep/Garrus than the "I don't know if it's love but I feel something"(Thane) or "is it time to move things along a little faster"(Jacob) lines, but that could be just because of my personal experience. The one time I noticed that I had developed more than friendly feelings for a friend of mine I also initiated the "maybe we could be more than friends" talk with a flirty line/joke off something he said. Everything else I thought of seemed really forced or awkward and left little room for him to indicate he didn't feel the same way without the situation becoming weird or unpleasant. I guess, in my imagination of how my Shep. is as a person, it also fit her character well because I don't think she does awkwardness well, but deadpan serious as she is "at work" (most of the time :P) she jokes around enough with Joker and the others on the side to convince me she's actually a well-disguised barrel of laughs :D and Garrus also seems to communicate things with jokes a lot, so for me it fit in that romance (though it wouldn't have in the others).

#2152
Guest_aynxalot_*

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So much to comment onn, indeed! O_O



siltsonata: I read Animorphs- And, now that you mention it, you're quite right-! The turians are like frakking Andalites, on two legs. Funny how I never made that connection....so, amended: not *racist*, but naturally a bit elitist and ignorant of how other races percieve it.



Romance: I agree with those who say bedroom behavior does not necessarily equal normal, everyday behavior. In my fic, I tried to keep it equal- though Shep was fairly drunk so she got a little more slopp- er, aggressive. They have a particularly unconventional relationship that way- they are very much alike in many ways, very well-matched in their fighting skills, tactical minds, etc. But Shep does have an edge in the area of social skills and romance in particular. This is another thing I would attribute not just to Garrus, but to Turians as a people- like is mentioned in the game, humans have "this emotion called love." Not that turians don't "love", it's just expressed very differently for them. Garrus 'loves' Shepard, but he feels and expresses it in a way that is fittingly alien to us. To a human, it looks more like a powerful respect and admiration with a touch of affection thrown in.



Hence, also, the constant joking- he has a chronically hard time finding the right words to say things to Shepard, so keeping it light and playful is a way for him to not "mess it up." I also truly believe that, when initiating the romance, the feelings/indications were already there. Shep just makes a leap, realizing that 'subtle' isn't going to work so well anymore, and hopes for the best. If it seems she comes on strong...well, she's a strong person who knows what she wants. Garrus...doesn't know as often what he really wants.

#2153
Sialater

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aynxalot wrote...

So much to comment onn, indeed! O_O

siltsonata: I read Animorphs- And, now that you mention it, you're quite right-! The turians are like frakking Andalites, on two legs. Funny how I never made that connection....so, amended: not *racist*, but naturally a bit elitist and ignorant of how other races percieve it.



At least the turians and the humans have THAT much in common.  They both think they're better than the other.  God help Citadel Space if they ever unite. ;)



Romance: I agree with those who say bedroom behavior does not necessarily equal normal, everyday behavior. In my fic, I tried to keep it equal- though Shep was fairly drunk so she got a little more slopp- er, aggressive. They have a particularly unconventional relationship that way- they are very much alike in many ways, very well-matched in their fighting skills, tactical minds, etc. But Shep does have an edge in the area of social skills and romance in particular. This is another thing I would attribute not just to Garrus, but to Turians as a people- like is mentioned in the game, humans have "this emotion called love." Not that turians don't "love", it's just expressed very differently for them. Garrus 'loves' Shepard, but he feels and expresses it in a way that is fittingly alien to us. To a human, it looks more like a powerful respect and admiration with a touch of affection thrown in.

Hence, also, the constant joking- he has a chronically hard time finding the right words to say things to Shepard, so keeping it light and playful is a way for him to not "mess it up." I also truly believe that, when initiating the romance, the feelings/indications were already there. Shep just makes a leap, realizing that 'subtle' isn't going to work so well anymore, and hopes for the best. If it seems she comes on strong...well, she's a strong person who knows what she wants. Garrus...doesn't know as often what he really wants.



Frankly, I think they'd both end up laughing their way that initial awkwardness. 

#2154
Nissun

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Regarding that dominance matter...

This afternoon I played his loyalty mission. The very last line, there is something Shepard says that made me smile. Garrus says he needs to get out here, walks out the screen, and Shepard says "I'm with you", or something like that, before the mission ends.

The thing is that it sounded just like Garrus' distinctive "right behind you, Shepard". I absolutely feel like their relationship is that of very close friends, and not that of a commander and a subordinate at all. I guess the same thing can be said for Tali, but I haven't played with her as much.

I also felt kinda dissapointed. I expected more undertones between male Shepard and Garrus. Considering how amazingly emotional their dialogues were in his mission, playing with femShep... It's probably Meer's monotone delivery. That, or my m/m underlying tension detector isn't working well... :(

Modifié par Nissun, 03 mars 2010 - 06:13 .


#2155
siltsonata

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Sialater wrote...

aynxalot wrote...

So much to comment onn, indeed! O_O

siltsonata: I read Animorphs- And, now that you mention it, you're quite right-! The turians are like frakking Andalites, on two legs. Funny how I never made that connection....so, amended: not *racist*, but naturally a bit elitist and ignorant of how other races percieve it.



At least the turians and the humans have THAT much in common.  They both think they're better than the other.  God help Citadel Space if they ever unite. ;)


Oh God, they'd get some spaceship-equivalent of a kid's treehouse, with a password and everything.  Instead of no girls allowed, a sign that says, "No Asari allowed."

#2156
silentstephi

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siltsonata wrote...

Sialater wrote...

aynxalot wrote...

So much to comment onn, indeed! O_O

siltsonata: I read Animorphs- And, now that you mention it, you're quite right-! The turians are like frakking Andalites, on two legs. Funny how I never made that connection....so, amended: not *racist*, but naturally a bit elitist and ignorant of how other races percieve it.



At least the turians and the humans have THAT much in common.  They both think they're better than the other.  God help Citadel Space if they ever unite. ;)

Oh God, they'd get some spaceship-equivalent of a kid's treehouse, with a password and everything.  Instead of no girls allowed, a sign that says, "No Asari allowed."


/snarfs soda

Ooooooooooowwwww

Can someone draw this?  Please?  I'm imagining it being slightly chibbish for some reason... and I fail at Chibi

#2157
Sialater

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siltsonata wrote...

Sialater wrote...

aynxalot wrote...

So much to comment onn, indeed! O_O

siltsonata: I read Animorphs- And, now that you mention it, you're quite right-! The turians are like frakking Andalites, on two legs. Funny how I never made that connection....so, amended: not *racist*, but naturally a bit elitist and ignorant of how other races percieve it.



At least the turians and the humans have THAT much in common.  They both think they're better than the other.  God help Citadel Space if they ever unite. ;)


Oh God, they'd get some spaceship-equivalent of a kid's treehouse, with a password and everything.  Instead of no girls allowed, a sign that says, "No Asari allowed."


~Chokes on lunch, laughing~

For some reason this is now reminding me of the Valor's Confederation series by Tany Huff.  (Humanity is one of the war-like species that defend the wussier "evolved" species from the insect-like Others which are bent on galactic domination.  There is actually a species in there that vaguely resembles the turians.  The protagonist, Staff Sgt. Torin Kerr (a woman) kicks ass and takes names.)

Modifié par Sialater, 03 mars 2010 - 06:39 .


#2158
shnellegaming

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Hey guys, just wanted to let you know that I just finished datamining all the ME2 audio files. I looked around to see if a post-game romance audio file would be in there even though its not in the game. I'm sad to say I couldn't find it. If its in there its someplace weird. I found Tali's file just to compare where the location would be and neither Garrus or Thane have one in that location. If it is in there I can't find it. I don't think its there though cause I even found same-sex romance dialogue in there and thats certainly not in the game.  Here's to hoping they give us a patch.

Though I'm going to continue poking around in case they just stuck them in some off by themselves folder. It's really fun listening to some of the stuff you miss. Garrus has a line that I haven't found in the game yet. No clue where it could be.

"No, I'll be sure to ask him right after I put a shot through his skull."

Modifié par shnellegaming, 03 mars 2010 - 08:08 .


#2159
Sialater

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Actually, I think I've heard that. It's in regards to Sidonis. I told him he should talk to Sidonis and find out why he did what he did.

#2160
shnellegaming

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Do you know which dialogue tree this is? Wait is this a renegade Garrus from ME1?

#2161
aznsoisauce

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shnellegaming wrote...

Hey guys, just wanted to let you know that I just finished datamining all the ME2 audio files. I looked around to see if a post-game romance audio file would be in there even though its not in the game. I'm sad to say I couldn't find it. If its in there its someplace weird. I found Tali's file just to compare where the location would be and neither Garrus or Thane have one in that location. If it is in there I can't find it. Here's to hoping they give us a patch.

Though I'm going to continue poking around in case they just stuck them in some off by themselves folder. It's really fun listening to some of the stuff you miss. Garrus has a line that I haven't found in the game yet. No clue where it could be.

"No, I'll be sure to ask him right after I put a shot through his skull."


To quote MarginalBeast:

BIOWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRE!

#2162
Kim Shepard

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I don't think "cold-hearted" is a good word to describe Garrus either. Just to use an example, one of my Shepards is a cold-hearted person. He'll use anyone to get what he wants, he doesn't care about who gets hurt as long as he accomplishes his goals (he's the kind of guy who would think Saren's ideas like "blow up a bunch of innocents as a distraction" are brilliant), and for a good in-game example, he's the type of guy who wouldn't Paragon-hug Tali during her loyalty mission because he thinks it's strange that she got so emotional.

Garrus is the opposite - he obviously cares about his teammates if he wanted to revenge their deaths. My Shepard #14 wouldn't go out of his way to revenge a teammate's death, but he does go out of his way to get revenge on someone who betrayed him or messed up his own plans (and this is where the "calculating" part comes in - he put Udina on the new Council just in case he got the chance to sacrifice them again).

Besides, even if some of Garrus' actions could be considered Renegade, he's still just trying to fight crime and protect innocents. It's the same thing as Shepard taking a few Renegade choices - it doesn't make him/her an evil person. :) My main Shepard is Paragade, and I think Garrus probably is too.



Also, I don't think Garrus is racist. From one of his elevator conversations with Wrex, it just seemed like he had a pre-conceived idea about krogan (and probably other species too) based on the ones that he met and the way turians talk about them, but spending time with Wrex changed those ideas. Some of my Shepards were a little predjudiced against the batarians (mostly those with the Colonist background), but even they wouldn't be considered racists. xD They just have to try very hard not to generalize them all as the slaver types, it's not that they hate batarians.

#2163
Pacifien

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I think viewing Garrus as racist depends on what you view as racist. Garrus seems to have been raised in a mostly Turian environment, he sees from their point of view, he sees what they accomplish as Turians. In a sense, I view Ashley the same way. A lot of people cry racist with her, but she's never really been outside of human space and can't comprehend an alien galaxy until she's forced to.

I like to think joining C-Sec was a culture shock to Garrus in a way, and ever since then he's discovering what non-Turians accomplish. He sees they're different but just as good. That's why he points out his surprise at Kirrahe's STG and why I think he pauses when Shepard propositions him. It never occurred to him to think outside of the box.

Which is really the crux on the whole Garrus/Shepard relationship for me. Garrus has tremendous potential stifled by being a Turian, but being with Shepard allows him to evolve.

I also don't like trying to quantify who Garrus is by comparing him to either a Paragon or Renegade Shepard. He's not like either.

#2164
Guest_aynxalot_*

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Pacifien wrote...

I think viewing Garrus as racist depends on what you view as racist. Garrus seems to have been raised in a mostly Turian environment, he sees from their point of view, he sees what they accomplish as Turians. In a sense, I view Ashley the same way. A lot of people cry racist with her, but she's never really been outside of human space and can't comprehend an alien galaxy until she's forced to.

I like to think joining C-Sec was a culture shock to Garrus in a way, and ever since then he's discovering what non-Turians accomplish. He sees they're different but just as good. That's why he points out his surprise at Kirrahe's STG and why I think he pauses when Shepard propositions him. It never occurred to him to think outside of the box.


This ^ sums it up pretty perfectly for me. :) It also helps explain why he's so attached to either Shep- he starts to realize what he can be if he separates himself from conventional expectations.

Hey, a little tangent here- did anyone start to romance Thane and then switch over to Garrus? I'm pretty sure that's what I'm gonna do next playthrough. My first time through I tried to hit on Jacob but he just kept rebuffing me, and so I finally gave up on him. Thane, on the other hand, liked me right off the bat. Posted Image 

#2165
aznsoisauce

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aynxalot wrote...
Hey, a little tangent here- did anyone start to romance Thane and then switch over to Garrus? I'm pretty sure that's what I'm gonna do next playthrough. My first time through I tried to hit on Jacob but he just kept rebuffing me, and so I finally gave up on him. Thane, on the other hand, liked me right off the bat. Posted Image 

Unsurprisingly, leading Thane on then dumping him is less tragic than actually romancing him. He says something sweet like "I hope you will not mind if I continue to carry these feelings for you, siha."

I honestly couldn't do anything like that to the guy. I just want him to be happy with what he has left and use his time to continue bonding with his son, not coddling some unrequited feelings. Regardless, he comes to care for FemShep romantically even if you don't initiate it. That's what it seemed like to me, anyway.

#2166
MsKlaussen

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Garrus: "I thought you knew baby! Turians don't have tongues. I mean, cause what for?"

FemShep: "We're done here."

/romance

#2167
Kim Shepard

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I agree, it does depend on the players' own opinions for how they will view a certain character. I think Ashley isn't very trusting of aliens (and Pressley is the same way), and she does say a few things about aliens that some of my Shepards would find offensive, but she stands up to Saracino in the end. Those Terra Firma protestors all seemed racist to me, so at least she didn't agree with them. xD Although, I don't even think the Illusive Man is that bad compared to them... If he told Shepard to recruit certain aliens because he considered them the best in their fields of expertise (instead of just choosing the best human for the job), then he doesn't appear to be one of those extremist "kill off the aliens" racists like the protestors. But he is a human supremacist. o_o; I'm surprised my turian-loving Shepard likes him so much.



@aynxalot: I completed Garrus' loyalty mission before I recruited Thane (I know, I did the missions really out of order), and I didn't even see a flirting option for him. xD And what conversation options did you choose to make Jacob not like your Shepard? I'd like to know which ones are not the romance options because my Shepard ended up ignoring him after a while.



Also, I think I read a conversation here several pages back about Miranda being hard to kill in the suicide mission. There's a good chance I won't be able to regain her loyalty, so if there are certain choices to keep her alive (even though my Shepard for this playthrough doesn't like Miranda, she still doesn't want anyone to die), it would be nice to know. :) I'm planning on choosing Garrus for the fire team leader both times, and taking Garrus and Tali to the final battle.

#2168
aznsoisauce

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MsKlaussen wrote...

Garrus: "I thought you knew baby! Turians don't have tongues. I mean, cause what for?"

FemShep: "We're done here."

/romance

As funny as that is, we know Turians have tongues...it's a dark blue almost violet color, iirc.
But still...I lol'd. :lol:

@Kim - I'm pretty sure a disloyal Miranda will survive so long as you don't pick her for ANYTHING. But do have someone like Grunt or Garrus Hold The Line while you fight the Human Reaper (affectionately known as Pants).

#2169
Pacifien

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It hurts me more to romance Thane than not to. If I cut him off, I learn he'll always have a place for me in his heart that I've just said I couldn't reciprocate. If I follow through, then I'm loving a dead man. My Shepard didn't need that garbage, so I left it as friends. Really really close friends.



Garrus was another problem 'cause he's my favorite friend. I wasn't going to mess that up just to help release some tension. Since my previous relationship with Kaidan was all kinds of screwed up, I certainly wasn't going to bring the possibility of that happening with my favorite friend.



Oddly, no matter how I spoke to Jacob, the relationship aspect never came up. Dodged a bullet there.

#2170
Pacifien

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Kim Shepard wrote...
Also, I think I read a conversation here several pages back about Miranda being hard to kill in the suicide mission. There's a good chance I won't be able to regain her loyalty, so if there are certain choices to keep her alive (even though my Shepard for this playthrough doesn't like Miranda, she still doesn't want anyone to die), it would be nice to know. :) I'm planning on choosing Garrus for the fire team leader both times, and taking Garrus and Tali to the final battle.


This depends on the loyalty of your other squadmates, the upgrades you have managed, and who (if any) you send back with your rescrued crew. From your chosen plan, I'm inclined to think Miranda will survive your run. Although I've never taken Garrus with me to the final battle, and I know he is a key "hold the line" player. However, Grunt is also a key "hold the line" player, and everyone still came out okay when I took him to the final battle.

#2171
Nissun

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Kim Shepard wrote...


Also, I think I read a conversation here several pages back about Miranda being hard to kill in the suicide mission. There's a good chance I won't be able to regain her loyalty, so if there are certain choices to keep her alive (even though my Shepard for this playthrough doesn't like Miranda, she still doesn't want anyone to die), it would be nice to know. :) I'm planning on choosing Garrus for the fire team leader both times, and taking Garrus and Tali to the final battle.


Yeah, it was me. From what I've read, leaving her holding the line with other good, loyal defenders should be fine. Almost unkillable, as they say.

(edit) ...what was said above...

Modifié par Nissun, 03 mars 2010 - 09:35 .


#2172
Kim Shepard

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Thanks for the advice, everyone. :) That's good to know. I was going to let Grunt hold the line, and send Mordin to escort the crew back to the ship because I've heard he can randomly die if left there. I'd like to use that Renegade option to regain Miranda's loyalty, but I only have a few main missions left and the option still isn't there, so I don't think it'll happen.

@aznsoisauce: ...The Human Reaper is affectionately known as "Pants" now? xD I must have missed how this nickname came about.

#2173
MsKlaussen

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aznsoisauce wrote...

MsKlaussen wrote...

Garrus: "I thought you knew baby! Turians don't have tongues. I mean, cause what for?"

FemShep: "We're done here."

/romance

As funny as that is, we know Turians have tongues...it's a dark blue almost violet color, iirc.
But still...I lol'd. :lol:

@Kim - I'm pretty sure a disloyal Miranda will survive so long as you don't pick her for ANYTHING. But do have someone like Grunt or Garrus Hold The Line while you fight the Human Reaper (affectionately known as Pants).


Hehe - just factoring things down to what counts ;)

I had no idea they had tongues. I thought I checked that twice when I realized Garrus could be romanced. All I saw were really sharp jagged teeth, which would be like getting lovin from Jaws :crying:

You were right about Miranda. My first playthrough I sided with Jack in their little spat and at the end Miranda was under the beam dead. When I played through the second time and did the same thing, I had Garrus lead both splinter groups on the suicide mission, kept Miranda with me until the Hold the Line point, and then sent her with that group. I actually had Grunt and Thane with me to fight the reaper and everyone including Miranda still made it.

#2174
Brass_Buckles

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MsKlaussen wrote...

Hehe - just factoring things down to what counts ;)

I had no idea they had tongues. I thought I checked that twice when I realized Garrus could be romanced. All I saw were really sharp jagged teeth, which would be like getting lovin from Jaws :crying:


I don't think that would be a smart way to "get loving" from Garrus in the first place.  Remember, Do Not Ingest.  Same probably goes for him.

#2175
cedardryad

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Every time someone mentions Garrus's sharp pointy teeth I think of this:
www.youtube.com/watch

On an unrelated topic, I got a friend request on Facebook from Jacob.

Brass_Buckles wrote...

MsKlaussen wrote...

Hehe - just factoring things down to what counts [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/wink.png[/smilie]

I
had no idea they had tongues. I thought I checked that twice when
I realized Garrus could be romanced. All I saw were really sharp jagged
teeth, which would be like getting lovin from Jaws [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/crying.png[/smilie]


I don't
think that would be a smart way to "get loving" from Garrus in the
first place.  Remember, Do Not Ingest.  Same probably goes for him.

That is what dental dams are for. :blink:

Modifié par cedardryad, 03 mars 2010 - 10:32 .