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[Pacifien]

Nilfalasiel wrote...
Yeah, I'm aware of why the morality shifts were there, but it didn't make them any less jarring. I brought Kaidan and Garrus with me to the final battle on my last ME1 playthrough and was shocked to have Garrus telling me to leave the Council to die. That's something I would've expected from Wrex, but not from Garrus. Similarly, I was shocked when Tali came up with that same line on my first playthrough (had Kaidan along as well).

I'm not so sure about that. Turians strike me as the sort who will sacrifice ten thousand to save millions.

Nilfalasiel wrote...
From what I've witnessed, the relative morality of the ME1 characters goes something like this:

(Paragon) Liara - Kaidan - Tali - Ashley - Garrus - Wrex (Renegade)

It's Kaidan then Liara, actually. I took them both with me once and was surprised to hear Liara make the suggestion to sacrifice the Council as well as be the one of the two who shot Saren in the head again when you ask them to be sure he's dead. However, if you romance Kaidan, you have the chance to "renegade" his outlook, and he will then suggest sacrificing the Council. I suspect he even goes past Wrex on the renegade scale there.

Nilfalasiel wrote...
Out of curiosity, which ME2 squadmates will tell you to keep the Collector base? Because neither Tali, Thane, Grunt nor Miranda (obviously) have told me to keep it. I agree it's silly for them to suddenly change their minds afterwards though.

Here's a rundown. So Grunt actually does advocate keeping the base. However, I can't remember exactly, but I think the squadmates only speak up with their opinion if you get into a debate with the Illusive Man about keeping it... actually, I can't remember. And the person who makes the comment will be whoever isn't using the omnitool at the time.

Modifié par Pacifien, 03 juin 2010 - 04:32 .

[Collider]

Out of curiosity, which ME2 squadmates will tell you to keep the Collector base? Because neither Tali, Thane, Grunt nor Miranda (obviously) have told me to keep it. I agree it's silly for them to suddenly change their minds afterwards though.

http://masseffect.wi.../Collector_base

Depending on the player's response, certain squad mates will react. Should the Paragon response be chosen then Garrus, Legion, Zaeed, Grunt and Mordin will speak in favor of preserving the base, reminding Shepard that it's just data and that destroying it serves no purpose. If the Renegade response is chosen then Tali, Thane, Jacob and Jack while strongly disapprove, reminding Shepard of the sick experiments while Samara and Miranda will have more neutral responses. If the Neutral response is chosen then none of your squad will comment.

[Xsause]

 Gah, ninja'd.

So yeah, that's basically it.

Modifié par Xsause, 03 juin 2010 - 04:32 .

[Cerrydd]

How convenient, I found it:

Garrus: I don't know, Shepard. What happened here was horrible, but we have to stop the Reapers. If we destroy this base then all these people died for nothing.
Grunt: He's right. When your enemy gives you a weapon, you use it. You might not get another chance.
Jack: Seriously? Shepard, he's a user, just like Collectors.
Jacob: It's better because we'll do it? Shepard, this is way over the line.
Kasumi: Shep, he's talking about doing it all again. How will that help anything?
Legion: Shepard-Commander, this facility is data. It has no inherent ethical value. Destroying it will not return those lost. Keeping it may save others.
Miranda: I'm not so sure. Seeing it first hand--using anything from this base seems like a betrayal.
Mordin: Agreed. Collector base horrific. Vile experiments, but should use what's here. Risks galaxy to ignore opportunity.
Samara: You have not really defeated the enemy if you adopt their methods.
Tali: Shepard, we fought to stop it. Us using it doesn't make it right.
Thane: Shepard/Siha, I've made a life of killing those who deserve to die. We must struggle to not become what we hate.
Zaeed: Someone gives you a weapon, you don't complain that it's dirty--you use it.

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/105/index/1804383/1

edit: hundred times ninja'd

Modifié par Cerrydd, 03 juin 2010 - 04:35 .

[Collider]

Regarding commentary by squad mates in ME1, I wouldn't hold much of what they say as something that's part of their character. I mean, when you bring Kaidan and Garrus along and Garrus suggests abandoning the council, but if you bring Wrex and Garrus along, Garrus suggests saving the council, then you know it's just a game mechanic.

Modifié par Collider, 03 juin 2010 - 04:37 .

[Collider]

The Garrus thread is very helpful

[Pacifien]

Cerrydd wrote...
edit: hundred times ninja'd

[Cerrydd]

We are such enthusiasts lol.

Is there anyone who suggests keeping the base that won't turn 180 degrees when you talk to them post-SM? I can't remember. I always destroy it, except on my renegade PT and those PT's I always try to forget as fast as I can

[Collider]

How is it determined who holds the omnitool after the human reaper is defeated? By slot?

[Xsause]

Collider wrote...

How is it determined who holds the omnitool after the human reaper is defeated? By slot?

It's the second person you pick in the party selection screen.

[Sialater]

Xsause wrote...

Collider wrote...

How is it determined who holds the omnitool after the human reaper is defeated? By slot?

It's the second person you pick in the party selection screen.

It can't be the second.  Garrus is always the first squaddie I pick and he held the Omni-Tool last time.  Miranda, on my first run was the second I picked and she held it.  I think it's the "dominant" character stat again.

[Pacifien]

Cerrydd wrote...
We are such enthusiasts lol.
Is there anyone who suggests keeping the base that won't turn 180 degrees when you talk to them post-SM? I can't remember. I always destroy it, except on my renegade PT and those PT's I always try to forget as fast as I can

I'm not sure it's a 180 degree turn in opinion, but they all voice reservations on the Illusive Man's ability to use it wisely. It could be that the squadmates who advocate keeping the base are a lot like some of the posters (including myself) who would have wanted to keep the base, but strongly felt like Cerberus should never have it.

If only I had the option to give the thing to the Salarians. I'd trust Mordin to lead a team of investigators.

[Nilfalasiel]

Pacifien wrote...

I'm not so sure about that. Turians strike me as the sort who will sacrifice ten thousand to save millions.

Maybe so, but it's just that Garrus was so vehement about it. I was kinda like "dude...what did they do to you?"

It's Kaidan then Liara, actually. I took them both with me once and was surprised to hear Liara make the suggestion to sacrifice the Council as well as be the one of the two who shot Saren in the head again when you ask them to be sure he's dead. However, if you romance Kaidan, you have the chance to "renegade" his outlook, and he will then suggest sacrificing the Council. I suspect he even goes past Wrex on the renegade scale there.

Fair enough. The order between Liara and Kaidan was the only one I was iffy on, since I'd never had them in any kind of combination together; I only knew Tali was more Renegade than both of them, and Liara always seemed more goody-goody to me. Good to know then.

Oh, and how do you Renegade Kaidan (or Paragon Ashley, for that matter)? I've heard people say that there were actual Charm/Intimidate options for that, but I've romanced Kaidan twice and never noticed anything like that...Not that I'd ever Renegade him, but just out of curiosity. Is it in one of the Vyrnnus-related convos?

Here's a rundown. So Grunt actually does advocate keeping the base. However, I can't remember exactly, but I think the squadmates only speak up with their opinion if you get into a debate with the Illusive Man about keeping it... actually, I can't remember. And the person who makes the comment will be whoever isn't using the omnitool at the time.

Now I feel silly again. Because Grunt sure as hell didn't tell me anything. Or maybe I was coming down from my Insanity high and didn't notice...It might also have been because Miranda was in the party as well. Or because I made a firm decision and didn't try to discuss it with TIM...

It could be that the squadmates who advocate keeping the base are a lot like some of the posters (including myself) who would have wanted to keep the base, but strongly felt like Cerberus should never have it.

This is an interesting take on it and makes the change of opinion seem less silly. And here I was thinking they all got an acute case of the Alistair syndrome (ninja opinion change ftl).

Modifié par Nilfalasiel, 03 juin 2010 - 05:27 .

[Collider]

I believe you have to ask Kaidan in his romance what side he's on.

[Meltcare]

Nilfalasiel wrote...

Now I feel silly again. Because Grunt sure as hell didn't tell me anything. Or maybe I was coming down from my Insanity high and didn't notice...It might also have been because Miranda was in the party as well. Or because I made a firm decision and didn't try to discuss it with TIM...

When Miranda is in the party she is the only one who comments. At least that was always the case when i got her with me and blew up the base.

[Nilfalasiel]

Meltcare wrote...

Nilfalasiel wrote...

Now I feel silly again. Because Grunt sure as hell didn't tell me anything. Or maybe I was coming down from my Insanity high and didn't notice...It might also have been because Miranda was in the party as well. Or because I made a firm decision and didn't try to discuss it with TIM...

When Miranda is in the party she is the only one who comments. At least that was always the case when i got her with me and blew up the base.

Ah ok, that's it then, thanks. Once again, favouritism

[Collider]

Alright, here's an exercise.



In ME1, one squad mate must comment in favor of the paragon route and another in favor of the renegade route. This meant that depending on who you bring along, squad mates like Garrus could take completely opposite stances.



If instead of that, squad mates only took one, in character stance, what do you think Garrus would advocate in the following scenarios?



Preaching Hanar:

Helena:

Rachni Queen:

Feros Colonists:

Wrex:

Council:

[Meltcare]

Nilfalasiel wrote...

Meltcare wrote...

Nilfalasiel wrote...

Now I feel silly again. Because Grunt sure as hell didn't tell me anything. Or maybe I was coming down from my Insanity high and didn't notice...It might also have been because Miranda was in the party as well. Or because I made a firm decision and didn't try to discuss it with TIM...

When Miranda is in the party she is the only one who comments. At least that was always the case when i got her with me and blew up the base.

Ah ok, that's it then, thanks. Once again, favouritism

Well at least Garrus didn't say anything about keeping the base that way and Miranda disobeyed Cerberus.
Perfect.

[Pacifien]

Nilfalasiel wrote...
*snip*
Oh, and how do you Renegade Kaidan (or Paragon Ashley, for that matter)? I've heard people say that there were actual Charm/Intimidate options for that, but I've romanced Kaidan twice and never noticed anything like that...Not that I'd ever Renegade him, but just out of curiosity. Is it in one of the Vyrnnus-related convos?

I believe you get your chance after Noveria, when you discuss the Rachni. It's a back and forth exchange about humanity needing to prove their worth to the Council versus the Council holding humanity back. It requires some points in Charm/Intimidate, but I've never actually done it. As for Ashley, not sure exactly when the conversation comes up, but she's certainly not the bigot everyone claims she is afterwards.

[silentstephi]

Collider wrote...

Alright, here's an exercise.

In ME1, one squad mate must comment in favor of the paragon route and another in favor of the renegade route. This meant that depending on who you bring along, squad mates like Garrus could take completely opposite stances.

If instead of that, squad mates only took one, in character stance, what do you think Garrus would advocate in the following scenarios?

Assuming that Garrus really is, at heart, a bit of a renegade...

Preaching Hanar: Kick it off the presidium.  It's breaking teh law.
Helena: Arrest her.  She's a crime boss, so what that the guys before her were diriter, she's still dirty.  Though, admittedly, my Renegade let her keep going, simply because as a Spectre... you could always use friends in low spaces... (LAWL SAREN REFERENCE XD)
Rachni Queen: They were wiped out for a reason.  No use in restarting that cycle. 
Feros Colonists: Here, I think he'd actually do his best to save them.  They had the option given that you could, I don't think he'd go out of his way to harm innocent mindless zombies, especially when technically, part of the job is saving them.  I don't think their race would ever cross his mind though.
Wrex: See Shepard's renegade option.  I think he'd have used the same reasoning.  Or shot him.  Either way. ^.^
Council: I've only ever heard him say to sacrifice the council, and I think he'd stick with that.  He's very sacrifice the few to save the many.

Here's an extra one to the list -
Hostages (X57): He'd have sacrificed them to save the colony and other potential terrorist victims of Balak.

[Nilfalasiel]

Collider wrote...

Alright, here's an exercise.

In ME1, one squad mate must comment in favor of the paragon route and another in favor of the renegade route. This meant that depending on who you bring along, squad mates like Garrus could take completely opposite stances.

If instead of that, squad mates only took one, in character stance, what do you think Garrus would advocate in the following scenarios?

Preaching Hanar:
Helena:
Rachni Queen:
Feros Colonists:
Wrex:
Council:

Hmm...interesting.

Hanar: Being C-Sec, Garrus would probably have been in favour of shooing him off, not too ceremoniously at that. Or arresting him if he persists.

Helena: He would never bargain with her. Ie. she'd end up dead.

Rachni Queen: He would probably suggest to nuke her even after hearing her explanation.

Feros Colonists: He'd prefer the stun grenades to outright slaughter, I should think.

Wrex: He'd be waiting in ambush with his sniper rifle waiting on a sign from Shep to fire.

Council: I think he'd actually be in favour of taking the fight to Sovereign ASAP, ie. sending the human fleet in ASAP, which just happens to coincide with saving the Council. It's also sacrificing the few (some human ships) to save the many (the rest of the damn galaxy).

BDtS: He wouldn't let Balak go.

Meltcare wrote...

Well at least Garrus didn't say anything about keeping the base that way and Miranda disobeyed Cerberus.
Perfect.

Except I had Grunt with me, not Garrus >< But I'll try that when I start experimenting on how to get Garrus to catch Shep.

Pacifien wrote...

I believe you get your chance after Noveria, when you discuss the Rachni. It's a back and forth exchange about humanity needing to prove their worth to the Council versus the Council holding humanity back. It requires some points in Charm/Intimidate, but I've never actually done it. As for Ashley, not sure exactly when the conversation comes up, but she's certainly not the bigot everyone claims she is afterwards.

It's not so much that I've never done it...It's that I've never seen a Charm/Intimidate option with either Kaidan or Ashley. Hmm. Maybe it pops up further on in the convo tree, if you pick the right starting option.

Modifié par Nilfalasiel, 03 juin 2010 - 06:00 .

[silentstephi]

Heee, found this on DA:



Garrus Monocle! ^.^

[Collider]

Except I had Grunt with me, not Garrus >< But I'll try that when I start experimenting on how to get Garrus to catch Shep.

From what I heard who catches who is random. But from my own experience whoever was in the second slot was the one who slipped and the one who caught Shepard, but maybe I was just lucky.

[Nilfalasiel]

Collider wrote...
From what I heard who catches who is random. But from my own experience whoever was in the second slot was the one who slipped and the one who caught Shepard, but maybe I was just lucky.

Nah, you can catch one squaddie and then get caught by the other one. It's not always the same person.