693 réponses à ce sujet

[SurfaceBeneath]

ZennExile wrote...

And fat...

>Implying you aren't

[ZennExile]

Darth_Ultima wrote...

Looks like the OP forgot to take their meds.

i am trying to force myself to stay awake so I get some late night crazy forum freak lulz, and this is the best you come at me with?  Don't make me regret staying up man.  And you owe me a rug man.

[ZennExile]

SurfaceBeneath wrote...

ZennExile wrote...

And fat...

>Implying you aren't

Sorry I didn't get this one.     my bad...

[ABCoLD]

 

Ashkeldir wrote...
I agree, there was a lot of wasted production time (like the dancing) that could have been better spent addressing concerns like the truly shoddy squad AI, and having more of the side stories relevant to the main arc. I agree that most of the loyalty missions are sad, in that they don't relate to the main story at all, and so much more could have been done...

I have read both of Drew's novels, and the main story arc fits - but most of the side stuff is pretty much pointless - it's all about shooting stuff, though, I suppose, so let's dumb it down to make our combat mechanics stand out more (or was there some other reason?) Meeting Mordin on Omega fits (because of the 2nd book), Meeting Grunt fits, because of the genophage, and perhaps his loyalty mission makes the most sense, but ... bah, what's the point - it isn't like Bioware cares anymore...

Ermmm.... I don't think you get what the impetus, the thrust of the ME2 story is.  It's about collecting a group of specialists and unifying them as a team to deal with a threat.  That's the story.  It's not 'Deal with a threat.'  That's just the thing that drives the story.  So you pick up Thane, a ridiculously good assassin because, hey, at some point you might need to infiltrate things and kill people.  You pick up Samara, an Asari Justicar because she's a thousand years old and can squish things she kills until they fit in a dixie cup.  You pick up Zaeed because, obstensibly he's a badass mercenary and another pair of hands never hurts.  (I hate Zaeed by the way.)

You try to help them with your problems... why?  Because you picked them up off the street and why should they trust you with their lives on a suicide mission?!  So you make nice, you help them out with their personal problems.  Or (and here's the fun part) you don't!  Heck, check that out!  It's a choice!  And it's an RPG!  How fancy!  We should try this choice thing more often.  Heck, like if you think Zaeeds a massive tool and you don't want to work with him, maybe you don't recruit him!  Fancy!  More RPGs should do this!

[ABCoLD]

ZennExile wrote...

I told ya bro.  tact = ruins stuff

Oh... I disagree!

And with that, good night, sleep well, you've been a fantastic crowd! 

[ZennExile]

ABCoLD wrote...

 

Ashkeldir wrote...
I agree, there was a lot of wasted production time (like the dancing) that could have been better spent addressing concerns like the truly shoddy squad AI, and having more of the side stories relevant to the main arc. I agree that most of the loyalty missions are sad, in that they don't relate to the main story at all, and so much more could have been done...

I have read both of Drew's novels, and the main story arc fits - but most of the side stuff is pretty much pointless - it's all about shooting stuff, though, I suppose, so let's dumb it down to make our combat mechanics stand out more (or was there some other reason?) Meeting Mordin on Omega fits (because of the 2nd book), Meeting Grunt fits, because of the genophage, and perhaps his loyalty mission makes the most sense, but ... bah, what's the point - it isn't like Bioware cares anymore...

Ermmm.... I don't think you get what the impetus, the thrust of the ME2 story is.  It's about collecting a group of specialists and unifying them as a team to deal with a threat.  That's the story.  It's not 'Deal with a threat.'  That's just the thing that drives the story.  So you pick up Thane, a ridiculously good assassin because, hey, at some point you might need to infiltrate things and kill people.  You pick up Samara, an Asari Justicar because she's a thousand years old and can squish things she kills until they fit in a dixie cup.  You pick up Zaeed because, obstensibly he's a badass mercenary and another pair of hands never hurts.  (I hate Zaeed by the way.)

You try to help them with your problems... why?  Because you picked them up off the street and why should they trust you with their lives on a suicide mission?!  So you make nice, you help them out with their personal problems.  Or (and here's the fun part) you don't!  Heck, check that out!  It's a choice!  And it's an RPG!  How fancy!  We should try this choice thing more often.  Heck, like if you think Zaeeds a massive tool and you don't want to work with him, maybe you don't recruit him!  Fancy!  More RPGs should do this!

The justification for it that you came up with is awesome but it's just your imagination trying to force you to believe the story makes sense.  If you have to use your imagination to fill in the content gaps the story teller wasn't doing his job so well.

That's why the title is stuff without sense.  Cause you can put your own sense into it, but by itself, not so much sense.



And it doesn't count unless you do it right.

 smiley five!

[SurfaceBeneath]

ABCoLD wrote...

ZennExile wrote...

I told ya bro.  tact = ruins stuff

Oh... I disagree!

And with that, good night, sleep well, you've been a fantastic crowd! 

G'night!

[ZennExile]

ABCoLD wrote...

ZennExile wrote...

I told ya bro.  tact = ruins stuff

Oh... I disagree!

And with that, good night, sleep well, you've been a fantastic crowd! 

OMFG.  Tell me yer not a dude so I can pretend loving you is ok...

[Darth_Ultima]

ZennExile wrote...

Darth_Ultima wrote...

Looks like the OP forgot to take their meds.

i am trying to force myself to stay awake so I get some late night crazy forum freak lulz, and this is the best you come at me with?  Don't make me regret staying up man.  And you owe me a rug man.

I owe you a rug?  Why don't you use your moms you dirty boy you.

[Ashkeldir]

ABCoLD wrote...

 

Ashkeldir wrote...
I agree, there was a lot of wasted production time (like the dancing) that could have been better spent addressing concerns like the truly shoddy squad AI, and having more of the side stories relevant to the main arc. I agree that most of the loyalty missions are sad, in that they don't relate to the main story at all, and so much more could have been done...

I have read both of Drew's novels, and the main story arc fits - but most of the side stuff is pretty much pointless - it's all about shooting stuff, though, I suppose, so let's dumb it down to make our combat mechanics stand out more (or was there some other reason?) Meeting Mordin on Omega fits (because of the 2nd book), Meeting Grunt fits, because of the genophage, and perhaps his loyalty mission makes the most sense, but ... bah, what's the point - it isn't like Bioware cares anymore...

Ermmm.... I don't think you get what the impetus, the thrust of the ME2 story is.  It's about collecting a group of specialists and unifying them as a team to deal with a threat.  That's the story.  It's not 'Deal with a threat.'  That's just the thing that drives the story.  So you pick up Thane, a ridiculously good assassin because, hey, at some point you might need to infiltrate things and kill people.  You pick up Samara, an Asari Justicar because she's a thousand years old and can squish things she kills until they fit in a dixie cup.  You pick up Zaeed because, obstensibly he's a badass mercenary and another pair of hands never hurts.  (I hate Zaeed by the way.)

You try to help them with your problems... why?  Because you picked them up off the street and why should they trust you with their lives on a suicide mission?!  So you make nice, you help them out with their personal problems.  Or (and here's the fun part) you don't!  Heck, check that out!  It's a choice!  And it's an RPG!  How fancy!  We should try this choice thing more often.  Heck, like if you think Zaeeds a massive tool and you don't want to work with him, maybe you don't recruit him!  Fancy!  More RPGs should do this!

That's the point.  ME told us a story, and it was interesting because it kept a lot hidden. That was a part of the intrigue. ME2 tells us a very short story, and includes people we need to recruit because there isn't much else to tell about the story, other than who the Collector's are, what they're doing, and why we need to stop them. 

I get the impression that the recruiting and loyalty missions were created for filler, because there wasn't much more of the main story to tell...  There is no intrigue in doing Zaeed's loyalty mission - I don't learn anything new, other than some info about the Blue Suns and his ties to them, which are completely unrelated to the main arc.

ME1, Drew was the lead writer (and also wrote the prequel and in between novels) but he isn't the sole writer now. Why is that?  

The main arc in ME1 kept me riveted until the end, without too much intolerable fluff in between. The main arc in ME2 tells us who the Collector's are, what they're doing, and who they work for.  That's it...  The way that was done is great storytelling, but the rest...

I enjoyed Dragon Age : Origins because they tell a story throughout the game.  I enjoyed NWN (etc) because they tell a story throughout the game.  I enjoyed Baldur's Gate (I & II) because they tell a story throughout the game, I enjoyed ME because they tell a story throughout the game.  But, in ME, the side missions with your squad mates felt more natural - not 'forced' - if you helped them, it was because you wanted to,  not because their survival in the end game might depend on your help.  And tying in special skills that they can't use unless they are loyal?  Besides making the game mechanics unreasonable at higher difficulties until you've gained their loyalty, it also implies that they are so useless without Sheperd that they couldn't have learned those skills on their own - yet these are supposed to be the best of the best - after all, that's why we recruit them, isn't it?  Sure, you can look at it either way - Sheperd's leadership inspires them to learn a new skill, because they have become more powerful, because they have come into their own... But it still rings pretty fake to me...

In ME, the epic missions were related to the main arc, and the side quests were relatively short. Pick an epic mission and it told you something about the story.  In ME2, the main story arc is extremely short, and the loyalty missions are much longer, taking up more of the game than the epic story arc.  I'd be ok with it if there was more to the main arc, but I find it all sadly lacking - things like the lack of Council involvement, after the major ME decision as to whether or not to save them, have left a sour taste in my mouth, and I used to have hope that Bioware would listen - to the right people - but they catered to the wrong crowd, IMO.  

I liked the Mako - I hate planet scanning (though I've found a pretty fast way to do it, it is still a huge waste of my time, assuming I want to do most of the upgrades...)

ME2 has its good side and its bad side - the good being things like the new inventory setup - no more spending hours turning junk into omni-gel - but they let so many important things slide so they could spend production time on things like dancing and planet scanning, it leaves me disappointed.  But hey, that's just my opinion, and after all, it's not like I'm a paying customer, right?  

[ZennExile]

11 pages and 11 hours and I'm spent. Got more updates for tomorow.

[SurfaceBeneath]

ZennExile wrote...

11 pages and 11 hours and I'm spent. Got more updates for tomorow.

Be sure to hurry back now. We very much couldn't have a truly Comprehensive thread concerning things that don't make sense without ZennExile around to show us from example.

[Lmaoboat]

Is this thread still here? I guess you guys are trying to feed him until he explodes.

[Ashkeldir]

The_Juggern0tt wrote...

9) This one I largely agree with you on. It’s fine on the 1st play through but on ensuing ones it gets very tedious. I would be happy if they removed it, gave you more money for missions, and then made research cost money instead. Course’ that might make buying stuff from stores seem odd, so I dunno. Bottom line: I dislike planet scanning to; don’t know how to fix it without making research of tech seem dumb. Maybe if they highlighted regions on planets that had resources so you only had to scan within highlighted regions and didn’t have to scan every inch on a nondescript space rock.

I did my first play through with a new character (ie, without importing my ME chars) and determined (as many others likely already have) that you don't need to scan every planet for resources - but it gets better.

I hate planet scanning, but since it's a required mechanic if you want to do all upgrades/research, I found the best way to do it, and still do all the side missions, and get enough resources, without having to spend all my time doing it.  This is on the PC version (I have a mouse that allows me to switch DPI on the fly, so I can move the mouse very quickly over the planet surface) - I can't imagine how tedious it must be on the Xbox...

Enter the orbit of any planet in any system and EDI tells you if she's detected an anomaly.  Yes, I know that part is obvious. If there is no anomaly and the planet is not 'rich', move on to the next planet.  On rich planets, pick a column on the grid, top or bottom, and slide the scanner to the top - move over two squares and move in the opposite direction.  Don't stop for anything other than massive spikes.  If you get a massive spike, you're going to find the sweet spot in the four or five grid squares near the scanner's current location.  Launch probe.  Continue by rotating the planet (duh) and finish near where you launched that first probe (duh).  This also helps save credits (since probes aren't free ... duh)

It may seem obvious to some, but for those who haven't figured it out yet, it works well, and though I hate planet scanning, it made it much less tedious than it was when I first started (because when I first started, I didn't know you didn't need all those resources).  Hope this helped at least one person.  

Modifié par Ashkeldir, 19 février 2010 - 09:08 .

[MIlkman88]

Problem, zennexile?

[IbramSkyheart]

ZennExile wrote...

ABCoLD wrote...

 

Ashkeldir wrote...
I agree, there was a lot of wasted production time (like the dancing) that could have been better spent addressing concerns like the truly shoddy squad AI, and having more of the side stories relevant to the main arc. I agree that most of the loyalty missions are sad, in that they don't relate to the main story at all, and so much more could have been done...

I have read both of Drew's novels, and the main story arc fits - but most of the side stuff is pretty much pointless - it's all about shooting stuff, though, I suppose, so let's dumb it down to make our combat mechanics stand out more (or was there some other reason?) Meeting Mordin on Omega fits (because of the 2nd book), Meeting Grunt fits, because of the genophage, and perhaps his loyalty mission makes the most sense, but ... bah, what's the point - it isn't like Bioware cares anymore...

Ermmm.... I don't think you get what the impetus, the thrust of the ME2 story is.  It's about collecting a group of specialists and unifying them as a team to deal with a threat.  That's the story.  It's not 'Deal with a threat.'  That's just the thing that drives the story.  So you pick up Thane, a ridiculously good assassin because, hey, at some point you might need to infiltrate things and kill people.  You pick up Samara, an Asari Justicar because she's a thousand years old and can squish things she kills until they fit in a dixie cup.  You pick up Zaeed because, obstensibly he's a badass mercenary and another pair of hands never hurts.  (I hate Zaeed by the way.)

You try to help them with your problems... why?  Because you picked them up off the street and why should they trust you with their lives on a suicide mission?!  So you make nice, you help them out with their personal problems.  Or (and here's the fun part) you don't!  Heck, check that out!  It's a choice!  And it's an RPG!  How fancy!  We should try this choice thing more often.  Heck, like if you think Zaeeds a massive tool and you don't want to work with him, maybe you don't recruit him!  Fancy!  More RPGs should do this!

The justification for it that you came up with is awesome but it's just your imagination trying to force you to believe the story makes sense.  If you have to use your imagination to fill in the content gaps the story teller wasn't doing his job so well.

That's why the title is stuff without sense.  Cause you can put your own sense into it, but by itself, not so much sense.



And it doesn't count unless you do it right.

 smiley five!

Even if I actually agreed with anything you've written, this comment alone would make me discount everything you've said thus far.  Why is it that it's everyone elses imagination forcing them to believe the story makes sense?  That just screams of "everything I say is right, everyone else is wrong.  Well... unless they agree with me, then they're right too."

I came to the same explanation... that you're recruiting complete strangers to go on a suicide mission with very little hope of survival, and very high hope of death.  How would the game make any sense if you'd just picked them up with the collective opinion that they can throw themselves on their swords for him.  The loyalty missions aren't about literally gaining their loyalty so they won't die... it's about gaining their trust... showing them that he'll do everything in his power to keep them alive but if it goes wrong then they died for a just cause, not just taken some random guys word for it.

Oh, and I didn't think it up on my own as you accused others of... it's the feeling I got throughout the game itself.

[Ashkeldir]

The_Juggern0tt wrote...
12) Yes it’s different then ME1, and yes I thought the explanation in ME1 for no ammo was pretty cool. However, it adds more complexity to combat which is a good thing. Also, it’s not that out of canon with the story. Weapons overheated in ME1 as well, you just had to wait till they cooled down. Instead, you now just pop in a new thermal clip. Not a big deal for me, and well worth it because it added depth to combat and to the different weapons.

BUT

In ME2 you can't fire if you have no thermal clips - which makes no sense.  In ME1, yes, overload could do you in, but time would allow the weapon to cool down.  The Codex entry on ammunition in ME1 explains how shards are sheared off blocks of (Tungsten?) solid and therefore a 'clip' has thousands of rounds of ammunition.

I agree that the thermal clips is an interesting mechanic - but there should be an option for shooting even without thermal clips - once your clip has run out, you shouldn't be SOL until you find another thermal clip - if you wait for a reasonable amount of time, it should be ready to go again - even if it doesn't allow as many shots as it would with a thermal clip in place.

The only change in the description is that the weapons were 'upgraded' with new tech to now include thermal clips - which is great if you believe that the weapon couldn't cool itself off like it did in ME ...  

My computer uses heat sinks and they are very efficient.  Fans blow and pull the heat away from the heat sinks, keeping them cool.  A less effective heat sink in an ME2 weapon would work as a temporary solution until you can find another 'replaceable' heat sink...  For example, I imported a char from ME into ME2, an infiltrator - she gets to fire 12 shots from her sniper rifle and can't fire any more until she finds more sinks...  That's beyond ridiculous, considering what weapons were capable of in ME. The whole idea of not allowing soldiers to use their weapons in a time of battle is idiotic - yea, ok, it was done for the sake of the game mechanics, but if they had put in a 'temporary' heat sink, like I mentioned above, something that is less efficient, and overheats fairly quickly, at least you'd be able to use that weapon to work towards getting that thermal clip that's sitting 30 feet in front of you that you can't pick up because your cloak is going to go down before you get to it and get back to safety...  Once my imported Infiltrator has used up her 12 shots, she has to switch to a pistol... Not much of a sniper if you ask me!  Pretty much defeats the purpose of having unlimited ammunition - and no military on this planet would revert to something that limits their force's effectiveness - so again, I say, it makes no sense.

Modifié par Ashkeldir, 19 février 2010 - 01:17 .

[Ashkeldir]

IbramSkyheart wrote...
Even if I actually agreed with anything you've written, this comment alone would make me discount everything you've said thus far.  Why is it that it's everyone elses imagination forcing them to believe the story makes sense?  That just screams of "everything I say is right, everyone else is wrong.  Well... unless they agree with me, then they're right too."

I came to the same explanation... that you're recruiting complete strangers to go on a suicide mission with very little hope of survival, and very high hope of death.  How would the game make any sense if you'd just picked them up with the collective opinion that they can throw themselves on their swords for him.  The loyalty missions aren't about literally gaining their loyalty so they won't die... it's about gaining their trust... showing them that he'll do everything in his power to keep them alive but if it goes wrong then they died for a just cause, not just taken some random guys word for it.

Oh, and I didn't think it up on my own as you accused others of... it's the feeling I got throughout the game itself.

I may be mistaken, but I believe the point he was making was that, unlike in ME where the main story arc was the main focus, the side stories in ME2 take up a large portion of the story, and don't add anything to it - they are just filler, to give us something to do.  

Yes, you can justify them by saying some of the things you said, like you can't expect complete strangers to go on a suicide mission with someone they don't trust - but that has nothing to do with the main story, and it doesn't bring the story forward. Peter Jackson's Lord Of The Rings cut out portions of the story to fit the movie screen, because they didn't move the story forward. This game does the opposite.  Rather than spending more time following the main story, (there could have been a lot more - Drew is a pretty talented writer!), they made the side stories take up a very large portion of the game. I am disappointed because I expected something else. I expected the story telling to be as good as it was in ME.  That's why I bought the collector's edition...

Forget complaints about game mechanics, changes people like or don't like, etc.  The biggest downfall of this game is the lack of story telling related to the Mass Effect storyline.

PS I was waiting for the epic storyline to kick in. I knew I had to recruit those people for the mission to succeed, and I knew I had to gain their loyalty to get their special skills to kick in, but it felt like a game mechanic, not a well written 'work of art' storytelling like ME was. The whole point of ME was to tell the story of the history of how humanity learned of the Mass Effect, and the other races, and then the threat to all organics, and so on. The whole point of ME2 is supposed to be figuring out who the bad guys are, and why, and what to do about them - but IMO, far too much of my time is spent doing side missions that could have been much shorter, and the main story line could (should) have been much more involved. Many of the people slamming the OP are those who have just accepted that Bioware cut corners in the story telling department, and decided to fill in the blanks for themselves. You can accept that it makes sense that you wouldn't expect Zaeed to be as effective on a suicide mission without trusting you (even though he's been paid a fortune by TIM), but that doesn't mean that the story telling is a work of art.  

It is all about perspective, isn't it...  Some choose to be happy with the game because they'd rather not be disappointed, like I am, but I was expecting more from Bioware - this is the first time I feel that they have truly let me down, by not telling the story like I knew they could have done.

I suppose this whole thing stems from Drew no longer working alone on the writing... 

Modifié par Ashkeldir, 19 février 2010 - 09:48 .

[tsd16]

Ive never seen anybody hate on a game so much that wasnt rife with bugs. Get over it, you hate the game, move on.

You arent going to change anyone's mind. I loved the game, no amount of you whining like a 2 year old is going to change that.

and after your "experience" with me2, I am sure you will pre order three and continue posting drivel once you finish that and it doesnt "live up to YOUR (you are ONE person afterall) expectations",   There are plenty of games I hate others love, i dont continue to post on a board of a game I hate trying to change others minds, cuz it aint gonna work.  I move on and play a different game.

Modifié par tsd16, 19 février 2010 - 09:46 .

[IbramSkyheart]

EDIT: Actually, the guy above succinctly won the entire thread, so nevermind.

Modifié par IbramSkyheart, 19 février 2010 - 09:44 .

[Onyx Jaguar]

Wow, I leave this thread for a couple hours assuming it died and it just explodes!



Maybe it was an exploding corpse judging by the past few pages!

[Ashkeldir]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

Wow, I leave this thread for a couple hours assuming it died and it just explodes!

Maybe it was an exploding corpse judging by the past few pages!

My corpse, exploding multiple times - largely due to the sadly lacking squad AI, but don't get me started on that  

[Ashkeldir]

mabalogna wrote...

4) Nothing about Zaeeds backstory is unbelievable. He's a merc who co-founded one of the largest merc groups in the Terminus system.  Seems to tie in well with how f'n awesome he really is.

But he isn't really f'n awesome until you gain his loyalty - is he? 

[SurfaceBeneath]

Ashkeldir wrote...

I may be mistaken, but I believe the point he was making was that, unlike in ME where the main story arc was the main focus, the side stories in ME2 take up a large portion of the story, and don't add anything to it - they are just filler, to give us something to do.  

Only on the surface are the missions about recruiting a team for the suicide mission. In reality, the story is about Shepard maturing as a figure capable of uniting vastly differing ideoglogies which would never work together in order to face a common threat. The Reapers fear a Galaxy united against them... however that has never happened before because there has never been a leader who could effectively get the races of the Galaxy to ignore their petty squabbles to focus on the larger threat. At the beginning of ME1, Shepard was an adept military commander who definitely had the loyalty of his troops... however Shepard had only led human troops who were united behind a common cause. Shepard becomes a Specter, hunts down Saren, and uncovers the plot of the first one, however there is no real advancement in Shepard's ability to lead or inspire trust in others since all of the people who join Shepard on that mission pretty much just throw themselves at them or are already committed to Shepard's cause. In ME2, Shepard has to convince people who have vastly different priorities to join a "suicide mission", the same kind of "suicide mission" that the Galaxy is going to have to join together to fight the Reapers for. If Shepard cannot earn the trust of these people, than Shep will fail, just as Shep will fail to lead the Galaxy to survival.

The plot of ME2 is not weaker than the first. It's just more internal rather than external, motivated by future dangers rather than present ones, and focused on characterization. ME2 is going to be much more connected to ME3 was than ME1 was to either. The perceived "lack of plot" is mostly because people are not used to this kind of narrative.

[ZennExile]

tsd16 wrote...

Ive never seen anybody hate on a game so much that wasnt rife with bugs. Get over it, you hate the game, move on.

You arent going to change anyone's mind. I loved the game, no amount of you whining like a 2 year old is going to change that.

and after your "experience" with me2, I am sure you will pre order three and continue posting drivel once you finish that and it doesnt "live up to YOUR (you are ONE person afterall) expectations",   There are plenty of games I hate others love, i dont continue to post on a board of a game I hate trying to change others minds, cuz it aint gonna work.  I move on and play a different game.

So where does it say I don't like the game again?  I missed that part and my memory kinda sucks can you help me find it?  thanks pal.

 smiley five

Modifié par ZennExile, 19 février 2010 - 10:00 .