693 réponses à ce sujet

[tsd16]

ZennExile wrote...

tsd16 wrote...

Ive never seen anybody hate on a game so much that wasnt rife with bugs. Get over it, you hate the game, move on.

You arent going to change anyone's mind. I loved the game, no amount of you whining like a 2 year old is going to change that.

and after your "experience" with me2, I am sure you will pre order three and continue posting drivel once you finish that and it doesnt "live up to YOUR (you are ONE person afterall) expectations",   There are plenty of games I hate others love, i dont continue to post on a board of a game I hate trying to change others minds, cuz it aint gonna work.  I move on and play a different game.

So where does it say I don't like the game again?  I missed that part and my memory kinda sucks can you help me find it?  thanks pal.

 smiley five

I don't know you tell me.  Maybe its the senior thesis you wrote about everything you hate in the game.

[Ashkeldir]

SurfaceBeneath wrote...
Well, I agree it would be nice if the AI was tightened a bit up, it just never ruined my enjoyment of the game much to constantly be telling them where to go and what to do. I suppose it's my Baldur's Gate upbringing that finds it for some reason an acceptible gameplay mechanic to have to pause the game every 2 seconds to initiate another order . It always annoys my friends if they're watching me play DA:O because battles for me take three times as long as they took (though, to be fair, I play on a higher difficulty). I think the AI was at least a little better than in ME1 although with the spammability of powers in ME1, it did a lot to cover for the fact that your teammates were dumb as a sack of bricks.

I think you hit it bang on with the power spamming covering up the AI holes in ME. I don't believe there is any difference in it now, at least as far as when you tell it to go to a specific spot to take cover, and it goes around the corner, or runs out in front of the bad guys, right in their LOS, when it didn't have to, etc.

I think DAO pausing is different, because there are so many more options there.  I have a lot of characters (my profile stopped updating correctly at some point, but I stopped caring) and have played all levels of difficulty multiple times.  There is so much more to the tactics in DAO that I expect pausing to happen far more often - but for me, those pauses don't have to be every 5 seconds...  So in ME2, I either micromanage continuously, or I just go it alone, because if I tell Miranda to go to cover in a particular location, and she doesn't quite get exactly where I need her to be, I often have to come out of cover to be able to target the exact spot I want her to be (that's not a problem in DAO, since we can move the camera) and I get shot at, and often don't have time/shields to let off a power of my own before I have to duck again, and then find that Miranda still isn't standing right at the corner of the salvage crate, so she's not shooting around the corner like I wanted her to - she's just facing away from the enemy and not shooting, not using her powers... So I have to pause it again and come out of cover again and try to get her to move to the corner - but she won't - she'll just tell me she's going and then just stand in that same spot, so I have to tell her to move 6 feet away from that spot and then when she gets there, I tell her to go back (all this happens between me ducking behind cover and having to expose myself to enemy fire to get the right angle or else I end up telling her to climb on top of a crate or something ridiculous), and hope she goes to the corner this time - and of course, by the time she actually gets there, the guys I wanted her to stop (wanted her to use a power or shoot at them, or something, anything) they're on top of her, bashing her or just blasting her face off...  It's pretty sad, really..  But oh well, can't get my money back now  

[Ashkeldir]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...
They could be really good writers and the intent is to leave you with questions more than answers.  

If they were really good writers, we wouldn't be filling this thread with page after page of complaints about how the story wasn't very well executed...  It isn't just the story, it's the presentation, and the lack of cohesion, and so much more...

If we want to compare the two games, lets say ME is a 1000 page novel filled with captivating writing, but ME2 is a 350 page novel with 150 pages of filler that I could have done without - and I feel like I got ripped off - and the only reason to read it is because parts of it tie it to the first and third books...  I'm sure the third will feel more epic, but it may not actually be any better written, and even more issues may crop up, which is highly possible, considering the slide down the slippery slope that Bioware took with ME2.

If ME3 succeeds, it will be in spite of ME2, not because of it, and it is sad that it is too late to change this episode in Bioware's history.

Modifié par Ashkeldir, 19 février 2010 - 01:01 .

[holyfrog77]

All of a sudden I feel obligated to erect a monument in memory of all those who lost their lives in this flame war. I'll have Rev. Bowman deliver a beautiful eulogy.

[Ashkeldir]

SurfaceBeneath wrote...
I understand that the story of ME2 may not have been your cup of tea. But don't make the mistake of assuming this is due to any amount of less quality on the part of the writers or story. It's just a different kind of tea.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

They made tea for the prequel, sequel, and ME.  I bought ME2 expecting tea and I didn't get tea - I got unfiltered water from the Ganges.

They catered to a completely different audience and did not satisfy those of us who were expecting tea.  

All of that aside, I still feel that the writing was not up to par.  I never felt like I was part of the story.  In ME, I felt like I was driving the story.  In ME2, I was just a passenger along for the ride.  I can get more than that from just reading a book.

It isn't only about the lack of epic story being told, it is also about the presentation. If I am not the central character in the game, I might as well be watching a movie.  I didn't feel like the central character.  In every other game Bioware has ever made, I have always felt like the central character.  I have always felt like I was driving the game. Bioware can't just go off and take a successful franchise and turn it on its head to completely change the feelings it elicits from its loyal fan base and not expect repercussions. 

But, I'm sure they don't care.  If they did, I wouldn't have posted this in the first place.  

Modifié par Ashkeldir, 19 février 2010 - 01:42 .

[ABCoLD]

So. I'm awake again and have read what's been posted here. I thought I should respond. Because this is the internet, and if we don't all randomly espouse are opinions every three seconds our computer monitors will explode.



I don't mind the story of ME2, it's actually alright. The way it's presented is a big flaming pile of bad writing.



I found most of the voice actors did a passable job of getting their dialogue across effectively, but really? Can anyone say they really liked Jacob (for example) for any reason other than his roguish good-looks?





On a bizarre rant now:

It's a bit like getting a great big slice of apple pie (as a metaphor for the first game) and saying, "Oh, I quite like this!" and you go about for two years and then someone shows up with a big box of Mama Shepard's Pie and you're like... I like pie! Then you open the box and you find a quiche. It's not that I dislike quiche, but I kinda wanted pie. And it didn't even have to be apple pie, it could have been lemon or even cherry and I would have been happy. But instead it's this bizarre egg-filled concoction that vaguely resembles what I remember liking.

[SurfaceBeneath]

Ashkeldir wrote...
If they were really good writers, we wouldn't be filling this thread with page after page of complaints about how the story wasn't very well executed...  It isn't just the story, it's the presentation, and the lack of cohesion, and so much more...

You couldn't be more wrong. After KOTOR 2 was released, fans came in droves saying how terrible they thought the story was. They hated that none of the old characters they loved returned ('sides the droids), they hated that the storytelling was so ambigious, and they hated how it just "wasn't the first game".

Turns out, KOTOR 2 is today is highly regarded for its mature storytelling and alternative take on the Star Wars universe. The fact that these forums are so split down the middle on the issue pretty much shows that one side sees something the other doesn't. Also, these forums represent about 1% of the total ME2 playerbase's opinions on the game... the most annoyingly petulent and arrogant 1%. Never underestimate the ability of fans to crowd the forums shouting their discontent on a video game forums.

Opinions are opinions and the fancies of any crowd can shift at moment. You may not personally like the story, but as I've said before, never assume your "opinion" is in any way, shape, or form representitive of any larger "fact".

[SurfaceBeneath]

Ashkeldir wrote...
All of that aside, I still feel that the writing was not up to par.  I never felt like I was part of the story.  In ME, I felt like I was driving the story.  In ME2, I was just a passenger along for the ride.  I can get more than that from just reading a book.

See, now in the original ME, I considered the story a pretty superficial rehash of KOTOR's "hunting for Star Maps", and while conceptually a strong game, it's story never did anything vastly different from any other "Epic Sci-Fi adventure" released in the past 60 years.

Meanwhile, ME2's much more intimate look of their universe along with actual contemplation of actual moral issues. The justification of the genophage through Mordin, Geth and Quarian relations through Tali and Legion, and the fact that as advanced as man has become, there still lies that heat of darkness and savagry through Jacob's mission were more interesting to me than any ideas that ME1 ever brought up.

[Madecologist]

Another aspect with ME2 is that you went to signature spots. Well hard to call em that. Since it is only two games. But places that hold lore and talked about in the Lore. Tuchanka, the Migrant Fleet, Omega, and the new settings were more compelling: a Geth controlled former Quarian colony, a prison ship, a dumping ground for spaceships, and an established Asari Colony on the Fringe of Citadel space. A much stronger setting to be in.

In ME1 it was like... why do I even care about these places. Citadel was the only setting strong piece from already known lore. (Might be the first game but you had the novel and synopsises.) It felts like you were going to the equivelent of the Galactic suburbs for your missions.

[TekFanX]

ZennExile wrote...

TekFanX wrote...

Wall'o'Text...

On the Mako:
I friggin hated that thing.
Not because of gravimetric differences or such, but because it became boring in the second playthrough to drive from one point to the other. Although I liked the fights.
Scanning is now boring too, but at least it's mostly faster than the cruising-tours with the Mako.

You know they actually put peppers up those poor animals asses.    They make them eat gunpowder too.  Sick bastards put peppers up horse's asses too to make them prancy...  I don't know enough about horses to know the venacular but it makes them dance kinda sorta.  Anyway.. peppers in asses = no laughing matter.

I'll also touch on the Mako comment because I think you glossed something profound without knowing it.

You attempt to identify the "why" part of what you didn't like about the mako.  I commend you for being more mentally developed than 95% of the gaming population.  Truly /bow.  No joke.

BUTTTT...

You liked the fights with the Mako which I assume means (correct me if I'm wrong) you likey da vehicle combatz?!?!?  Driving around empty wastelands was quite boring, I have to agree there, but what didn't make sense to me (and MANY MANY other people) is that instead of making the Mako (bacon with macon lulz) better they just cut an essential part of both RPGs and popular shooters out of the picture.

It's not that the Mako was awesomesauce and I want to slather it's ranomd portholes with lube and "explore" them.  It's that exploration is a huge play motivation for MILLLIONS of RPG fans and vehicles are enormously popular in modern shooters.  ENORMOUSLY popular.  Yet for some reason Bioware drop kicked the vehicle content in favor of "Really Captain?... Probing Uranus."

That's where the lack of sense comes in. 

Yes, I liked the vehicle-combat.
Especially the "jump-jets" of the mako are nice things I just encountered in Vehicle-Combat when playing MechWarrior 3 and 4.
Not quite the same, since Mechs resemble more "humanoid" structures, but keeping out of fire by jumping over the Missiles/Projectiles was kinda fun.
Also tactical choose of the point where you shoot from was fun...although it was only needed if you ran for "sniping" enemies, rather than circling them or hide behind obstacles.

I agree completely that the vehicle-component of the Mako is neat in this form and that the shooter-element of it really carries through.
It definetely was fun exploring the universe at the first time.
But then...second playthrough:
If you keep out the encounters with Thrasher-Maws, fortified bases and foot-troops, it was just: Driving there, make that mini-game to find resources or enter one of  the bases to clear it.
Sometimes you found something remarkable...so remarkable that you got a little text on the screen to describe what it was.
And seriously: If you watch the landscape you fall asleep in most time.
If you're lucky, there was one non-hostile species on the planet, except for grass and rocks with roots.
About the atmosphere, that was a downer.

They could have improved it, no argue about that.
Maybe they did with the Hammerhead.
Making it a DLC...not quite the best decision, I agree.
But then again there's more in economy than bringing out the game when all is in.
Having a understanding for that in the way of accepting it, I'm waiting for pricing and content of the DLC that's to come, before I judge all about vehicle-combat in ME2.

[Ashkeldir]

Madecologist wrote...

Another aspect with ME2 is that you went to signature spots. Well hard to call em that. Since it is only two games. But places that hold lore and talked about in the Lore. Tuchanka, the Migrant Fleet, Omega, and the new settings were more compelling: a Geth controlled former Quarian colony, a prison ship, a dumping ground for spaceships, and an established Asari Colony on the Fringe of Citadel space. A much stronger setting to be in.
In ME1 it was like... why do I even care about these places. Citadel was the only setting strong piece from already known lore. (Might be the first game but you had the novel and synopsises.) It felts like you were going to the equivelent of the Galactic suburbs for your missions.

I can agree with this, in that a lot of the places tie in with what was mentioned in previous lore, and a lot more seemed to tie in with the second novel - there were a lot of references (Omega, the Cyniad, Cerberus attacking the migrant fleet ship to kidnap the biotic child, etc), but that doesn't change the fact that I felt like a passenger, not the driver.

As far as KOTOR & KOTOR II (and their predecessor), I enjoyed them all.  They were well written, and different enough to produce a different experience each time, but still a very enjoyable experience each time. Sure, some things were added and some things removed, but I felt like I was getting to know the universe.  However, in ME2, I already knew a lot of what was going on in the universe because I read the second novel, and hearing the Quarians mention how they had already been betrayed by one of their own was just there because it was there. It didn't add anything to the story - it was there so they could say 'we made a reference to the novel'.  They didn't really expand on a lot of things, other than the main story arc with the Collectors, they just gave us back story on characters to fill in the lore of the galaxy, which is nice, as an ideal, but as Zenn mentioned, pretty much every one of the missions with these new squad mates could have been put out as news reports in ME, or in ME2, or even a Codex entry to tell me about Zaeed and his background would have served the same purpose.  It feels like they had to write the game this way because they couldn't find anything to divulge in ME2 without spoiling ME3, and to me, that makes a lot of it merely fluff and filler that I could have read about in a short blurb somewhere.

When I bought the game, I was expecting epic storytelling.  Outside of the (fairly short) main story related to us in ME2, I feel like all I got was footnotes and appendix entries.

There were no epic plot twists and turns, there was no constant wonder of what was going on - right from the start you know who the real enemy is, if you played ME, and you are introduced to the Collectors early enough that there are no surprises, other than who they were and where the suicide mission takes place. I didn't spend the game searching for something, or trying to find answers. I spent the game helping squad mates get their lives in order before the suicide mission, and sparsely interspersed amidst all of that, I got to see little blurbs of the real story - the story I care about - the one that made me want to read the second novel, the one that made me want to buy ME2, above all other reasons, the one that made me want to know what happens in ME3 before ME2 even came out - because the whole point was that it was story driven.  I wanted more of the real story.  I could have read the rest in an appendix or codex entries.  Hopefully that gets my point across because there isn't much point in continuing this, is there?  

To each his own, I suppose.  I know they could have done a lot more, and I'm disappointed because of that, and I'm disappointed because they didn't live up to their reputation - they didn't meet their own quality standards. Others aren't (as) disappointed because they choose to accept what they see without questioning Bioware's motives (or lack thereof), and they are willing to accept the relatively poor delivery of the subject matter because they choose to.  That doesn't make either of us wrong - we already know you can't please all the people all the time - but when a fan base is this divided, as you said it is, it proves that they did mess it up enough that half the people out here feel the need to complain or vent - they could have told the story in a way that didn't upset that half of the folks - and the rest would have been happy anyway (since they seem to be content with accepting whatever Bioware chooses to feed them, regardless of the vehicle).

Cheers

Modifié par Ashkeldir, 19 février 2010 - 08:56 .

[Turkeysock]

I was REALLY hoping this thread would die out, but since it isn't going to any time soon, I'll just put in some more money.

Ashkeldir wrote...
If they were really good writers, we wouldn't be filling this thread with page after page of complaints about how the story wasn't very well executed...  It isn't just the story, it's the presentation, and the lack of cohesion, and so much more...

Ummm... Can I ask you, where are these pages upon pages of complaints in this thread? Almost half of the responses are from Zenn, who isn't even arguing, he's just telling people they are wrong or making fun of their names. And the other half of the posts on here can be split into three groups, trolls, people who disagree and those who agree with Zenn. In which case, if you actually look at those arguing with Zenn and those against Zenn, you have more who are against him than with him. So yeah, that sort of busts your bubble.

ZennExile wrote...

I get it the idea behind compelling writing is appealing to your audience but ... really Cheerleader?  That's kinda pushing the envelope of laziness.  It is a hugely successful SciFi IP we are talking about here.  It's street cred comes from complex story telling and compelling psuedo realism.  Busting out the cheerleader comments is kinda benieth astudio like Bioware.  It's too easy.  Too... American...  it narrows the possible appeal way down even within the target audience and kinda dumbs the whole character down in my opinion.

OMG, you are so right. Using a word that completely fits Miranda is totally a lazy way to go about it! In fact, I think that the game being in english (or what ever language you play it in) is way too lazy! BioWare should've made them speak some kind of pseudo future speak! Cause come on, it's like over 100 years in the future. I mean, just having them speak current vernacular is totally ruining the the complex story telling and pseudo realism! It's just too easy having them speak vernacular! Shame on you BioWare for taking the easy way out!

Modifié par Turkeysock, 19 février 2010 - 09:06 .

[Ashkeldir]

Turkeysock wrote...

Ashkeldir wrote...
If they were really good writers, we wouldn't be filling this thread with page after page of complaints about how the story wasn't very well executed...  It isn't just the story, it's the presentation, and the lack of cohesion, and so much more...

Ummm... Can I ask you, where are these pages upon pages of complaints in this thread? Almost half of the responses are from Zenn, who isn't even arguing, he's just telling people they are wrong or making fun of their names. And the other half ot the posts on here can be split into three groups, trolls, people who disagree and those who agree with Zenn. In which case, if you actually look at those arguing with Zenn and those against Zenn, you have more who are against him than with him. So yeah, that sort of busts your bubble.

I get the impression that you didn't bother reading any of my other commentaries on why I consider ME2 a flop. It's either that, or you aren't able to find anything constructive to add, nor any criticism to dispel what I'm saying.  Considering the troll segment of thread posters you mentioned, I think your post fits more into that than anything else, since all you're trying to do is point out the fact that you think you somehow 'burst my bubble'. I have made many valid points - I'm part of a discussion - even if it doesn't fit the general tone of this thread - and there have been several other valid points made by people on 'the other side of the fence', if you will - but it isn't just this thread, it is all over the forums.  

The fact that you're dwelling on Zenn's rant about the use of the word 'cheerleader' indicates to me that you aren't concerned with more important issues...  So, thanks for comin out, but...

Modifié par Ashkeldir, 19 février 2010 - 09:15 .

[overkill373]

dont like it? dont play it..its that simple

[BattleVisor]

Some of those points really dont hold any water, and most can be explained

[Turkeysock]

Ashkeldir wrote...

Turkeysock wrote...

Ashkeldir wrote...
If they were really good writers, we wouldn't be filling this thread with page after page of complaints about how the story wasn't very well executed...  It isn't just the story, it's the presentation, and the lack of cohesion, and so much more...

Ummm... Can I ask you, where are these pages upon pages of complaints in this thread? Almost half of the responses are from Zenn, who isn't even arguing, he's just telling people they are wrong or making fun of their names. And the other half ot the posts on here can be split into three groups, trolls, people who disagree and those who agree with Zenn. In which case, if you actually look at those arguing with Zenn and those against Zenn, you have more who are against him than with him. So yeah, that sort of busts your bubble.

I get the impression that you didn't bother reading any of my other commentaries on why I consider ME2 a flop. It's either that, or you aren't able to find anything constructive to add, nor any criticism to dispel what I'm saying.  Considering the troll segment of thread posters you mentioned, I think your post fits more into that than anything else, since all you're trying to do is point out the fact that you think you somehow 'burst my bubble'. I have made many valid points - I'm part of a discussion - even if it doesn't fit the general tone of this thread - and there have been several other valid points made by people on 'the other side of the fence', if you will - but it isn't just this thread, it is all over the forums.  

The fact that you're dwelling on Zenn's rant about the use of the word 'cheerleader' indicates to me that you aren't concerned with more important issues...  So, thanks for comin out, but...

Actually I did... And your about the only person who's actually trying to argue your point across. Which on some points I do agree with, and others I don't. But from that quote I took from ya, your basically IMPLYING that this whole thread is full of people who are agreeing with you. I pointed out that this is not so, and that if you move out all of Zenn's trolling responses, which is practically most of them, the other miscellaneous trolls, and anything else that has nothing to do with the topic (IE people either just agreeing or disagreeing with Zenn), than you'd see that most of the posts on here aren't agreeing with you. Honestly though, when it comes down to it, when it comes to the story and what YOU think is a flop, is entirely based upon YOUR OPINION. Not something that is concrete fact or even logic. Everything you have written has been your opinion on why you THINK ME2 is a flop. And yes, there have been those who disagree and those who agree with you. I agree with some of the stuff you said, but at the same time I still love the game and I'm enjoying it on my 5th play through of it still.

What "more important issues" are you talking about? I've been in the ME2 OCQaS forum since the game came out. I've read just about EVERY thread that has to do with people who hate ME2 (If you're so passionate to write how much ME2 has let you down and diss about everything in the game that it takes 5 pages to print, than I consider that more along the lines of hate then simple dislike). You haven't said anything that hasn't already been brought up in those many other threads. So what "more important issues" are you talking about? Everything that you, Zenn, and everyone else who complained has already been brought up more than 100 times already! I know what a lot of the issues are, and most of them don't bother me at all. If ME2 disappointed you so much or if you hate the game so much, then return it and get your money back!

As for the whole Cheerleader thing, I went to bed last night after I posted that, and I am now not allowed to respond to his post? Yes, it's full of sarcasm (if you didn't catch it), and frankly I've already responded to every thing Zenn has said point by point. He ignored it all because he isn't on here to argue, he's on here to annoy the crap out of people. I just find his stupidity amusing.

As for me being a troll, true, that last segment of the post was more of trolling than anything. But the first part was not, and it did in fact prove that your comment that I quoted was wrong. This thread is not full of complaints, and to top it off, there is nothing new said in here that no one hasn't already seen posted.

I do give you props for actually being polite and posting your thoughts and opinions in a logical way. I might disagree with you, but you have gained a lot of respect in my eyes.

Modifié par Turkeysock, 19 février 2010 - 09:44 .

[Ashkeldir]

Turkeysock wrote...

But from that quote I took from ya, your basically IMPLYING that this whole thread is full of people who are agreeing with you.

I haven't read the rest yet, but I have to comment on this while it is fresh in my mind.

I didn't imply anything.  I stated a fact, and you interpreted it in a way I had not intended.

What I wrote was : "we wouldn't be filling this thread with page after page of complaints about how the story wasn't very well executed"

I didn't specify who 'we' is, and I'm sure you've noticed how many posts I made going into detail about my concerns.  We can be as few as two people, that would be the OP and myself, but there are others as well.  Anyway, I just wanted to clear that up before proceeding.   Cheers!  

[bdawg3103]

tl; dnr



seriously, wow. if you made some more substantial arguments instead of just complaining...

[ZennExile]

ABCoLD wrote...

It's a bit like getting a great big slice of apple pie (as a metaphor for the first game) and saying, "Oh, I quite like this!" and you go about for two years and then someone shows up with a big box of Mama Shepard's Pie and you're like... I like pie! Then you open the box and you find a quiche. It's not that I dislike quiche, but I kinda wanted pie. And it didn't even have to be apple pie, it could have been lemon or even cherry and I would have been happy. But instead it's this bizarre egg-filled concoction that vaguely resembles what I remember liking.

There is nothing bizarre about this.

ME1 was in fact Pie.  It promised pie, it said "Try this yummy pie", and we enjoyed that pie.

ME2 instead made us a fruit cake and told us it was just as good as pie.  But it's universally known that cake if a lie and ME2 is a big stinkin fruit cake of a lie.

[ZennExile]

bdawg3103 wrote...

tl; dnr

seriously, wow. if you made some more substantial arguments instead of just complaining...

Why make arguments that just paint a big fat target on my chest saying "shoot at this please".  See the idea is to just let the thoughts flow without worrying about what some other random jerkoff thinks about what I have to say.

 smiley five

[Skilled Seeker]

Cool story bro.

[ZennExile]

Turkeysock wrote...

Ashkeldir wrote...

Turkeysock wrote...

Ashkeldir wrote...
If they were really good writers, we wouldn't be filling this thread with page after page of complaints about how the story wasn't very well executed...  It isn't just the story, it's the presentation, and the lack of cohesion, and so much more...

Ummm... Can I ask you, where are these pages upon pages of complaints in this thread? Almost half of the responses are from Zenn, who isn't even arguing, he's just telling people they are wrong or making fun of their names. And the other half ot the posts on here can be split into three groups, trolls, people who disagree and those who agree with Zenn. In which case, if you actually look at those arguing with Zenn and those against Zenn, you have more who are against him than with him. So yeah, that sort of busts your bubble.

I get the impression that you didn't bother reading any of my other commentaries on why I consider ME2 a flop. It's either that, or you aren't able to find anything constructive to add, nor any criticism to dispel what I'm saying.  Considering the troll segment of thread posters you mentioned, I think your post fits more into that than anything else, since all you're trying to do is point out the fact that you think you somehow 'burst my bubble'. I have made many valid points - I'm part of a discussion - even if it doesn't fit the general tone of this thread - and there have been several other valid points made by people on 'the other side of the fence', if you will - but it isn't just this thread, it is all over the forums.  

The fact that you're dwelling on Zenn's rant about the use of the word 'cheerleader' indicates to me that you aren't concerned with more important issues...  So, thanks for comin out, but...

Actually I did... And your about the only person who's actually trying to argue your point across. Which on some points I do agree with, and others I don't. But from that quote I took from ya, your basically IMPLYING that this whole thread is full of people who are agreeing with you. I pointed out that this is not so, and that if you move out all of Zenn's trolling responses, which is practically most of them, the other miscellaneous trolls, and anything else that has nothing to do with the topic (IE people either just agreeing or disagreeing with Zenn), than you'd see that most of the posts on here aren't agreeing with you. Honestly though, when it comes down to it, when it comes to the story and what YOU think is a flop, is entirely based upon YOUR OPINION. Not something that is concrete fact or even logic. Everything you have written has been your opinion on why you THINK ME2 is a flop. And yes, there have been those who disagree and those who agree with you. I agree with some of the stuff you said, but at the same time I still love the game and I'm enjoying it on my 5th play through of it still.

What "more important issues" are you talking about? I've been in the ME2 OCQaS forum since the game came out. I've read just about EVERY thread that has to do with people who hate ME2 (If you're so passionate to write how much ME2 has let you down and diss about everything in the game that it takes 5 pages to print, than I consider that more along the lines of hate then simple dislike). You haven't said anything that hasn't already been brought up in those many other threads. So what "more important issues" are you talking about? Everything that you, Zenn, and everyone else who complained has already been brought up more than 100 times already! I know what a lot of the issues are, and most of them don't bother me at all. If ME2 disappointed you so much or if you hate the game so much, then return it and get your money back!

As for the whole Cheerleader thing, I went to bed last night after I posted that, and I am now not allowed to respond to his post? Yes, it's full of sarcasm (if you didn't catch it), and frankly I've already responded to every thing Zenn has said point by point. He ignored it all because he isn't on here to argue, he's on here to annoy the crap out of people. I just find his stupidity amusing.

As for me being a troll, true, that last segment of the post was more of trolling than anything. But the first part was not, and it did in fact prove that your comment that I quoted was wrong. This thread is not full of complaints, and to top it off, there is nothing new said in here that no one hasn't already seen posted.

I do give you props for actually being polite and posting your thoughts and opinions in a logical way. I might disagree with you, but you have gained a lot of respect in my eyes.

Hey Turkydouche, this thread isn't about arguments.  It's about crap that doesn't "MAKE" sense without the player having to "MAKE" sense for it.

This is why I told you your name is Turkeysock and wrote you off like an argumentative child with no valuable input.

You don't even get a smiley five.  Turkeysock...

[ZennExile]

BattleVisor wrote...

Some of those points really dont hold any water, and most can be explained

Yes if you make sense for them using your imagination you can indeed "explain" them.  But without your imagination, they no makah da sense.  Dats kinda da point of da list sir.

 smiley five

[ZennExile]

Turkeysock wrote...

I was REALLY hoping this thread would die out, but since it isn't going to any time soon, I'll just put in some more money.

Ashkeldir wrote...
If they were really good writers, we wouldn't be filling this thread with page after page of complaints about how the story wasn't very well executed...  It isn't just the story, it's the presentation, and the lack of cohesion, and so much more...

Ummm... Can I ask you, where are these pages upon pages of complaints in this thread? Almost half of the responses are from Zenn, who isn't even arguing, he's just telling people they are wrong or making fun of their names. And the other half of the posts on here can be split into three groups, trolls, people who disagree and those who agree with Zenn. In which case, if you actually look at those arguing with Zenn and those against Zenn, you have more who are against him than with him. So yeah, that sort of busts your bubble.

ZennExile wrote...

I get it the idea behind compelling writing is appealing to your audience but ... really Cheerleader?  That's kinda pushing the envelope of laziness.  It is a hugely successful SciFi IP we are talking about here.  It's street cred comes from complex story telling and compelling psuedo realism.  Busting out the cheerleader comments is kinda benieth astudio like Bioware.  It's too easy.  Too... American...  it narrows the possible appeal way down even within the target audience and kinda dumbs the whole character down in my opinion.

OMG, you are so right. Using a word that completely fits Miranda is totally a lazy way to go about it! In fact, I think that the game being in english (or what ever language you play it in) is way too lazy! BioWare should've made them speak some kind of pseudo future speak! Cause come on, it's like over 100 years in the future. I mean, just having them speak current vernacular is totally ruining the the complex story telling and pseudo realism! It's just too easy having them speak vernacular! Shame on you BioWare for taking the easy way out!

Actually the word that would have been appropriate would have been "whhore" rather than cheerleader.  At the very least bitcch.  But yeah Cheerleader is great for a story written to 12 year old girls that would be shocked and cry to mommy if someone said those other words.  But this was written for adults.  Junior.

smiley five

[Ashkeldir]

Turkeysock wrote...

Actually I did... And your about the only person who's actually trying to argue your point across. Which on some points I do agree with, and others I don't. But from that quote I took from ya, your basically IMPLYING that this whole thread is full of people who are agreeing with you. I pointed out that this is not so, and that if you move out all of Zenn's trolling responses, which is practically most of them, the other miscellaneous trolls, and anything else that has nothing to do with the topic (IE people either just agreeing or disagreeing with Zenn), than you'd see that most of the posts on here aren't agreeing with you. Honestly though, when it comes down to it, when it comes to the story and what YOU think is a flop, is entirely based upon YOUR OPINION. Not something that is concrete fact or even logic. Everything you have written has been your opinion on why you THINK ME2 is a flop. And yes, there have been those who disagree and those who agree with you. I agree with some of the stuff you said, but at the same time I still love the game and I'm enjoying it on my 5th play through of it still.

What "more important issues" are you talking about? I've been in the ME2 OCQaS forum since the game came out. I've read just about EVERY thread that has to do with people who hate ME2 (If you're so passionate to write how much ME2 has let you down and diss about everything in the game that it takes 5 pages to print, than I consider that more along the lines of hate then simple dislike). You haven't said anything that hasn't already been brought up in those many other threads. So what "more important issues" are you talking about? Everything that you, Zenn, and everyone else who complained has already been brought up more than 100 times already! I know what a lot of the issues are, and most of them don't bother me at all. If ME2 disappointed you so much or if you hate the game so much, then return it and get your money back!

As for the whole Cheerleader thing, I went to bed last night after I posted that, and I am now not allowed to respond to his post? Yes, it's full of sarcasm (if you didn't catch it), and frankly I've already responded to every thing Zenn has said point by point. He ignored it all because he isn't on here to argue, he's on here to annoy the crap out of people. I just find his stupidity amusing.

As for me being a troll, true, that last segment of the post was more of trolling than anything. But the first part was not, and it did in fact prove that your comment that I quoted was wrong. This thread is not full of complaints, and to top it off, there is nothing new said in here that no one hasn't already seen posted.

I do give you props for actually being polite and posting your thoughts and opinions in a logical way. I might disagree with you, but you have gained a lot of respect in my eyes.

Ok, so technically, it's just myself and a few others who agree (in this thread) - but you said it yourself that all of these complaints have been voiced hundreds of times before - so you were arguing (incorrectly so) that my post was inaccurate because of what I said, and how I said it, specifically (about us filling up pages), not because my point was invalid. 

I haven't read the hundreds of other comments about these problems. I don't usually waste my time on forums (unless I'm in a beta test and need to be there) because it is usually pointless, but I reached a boiling point yesterday because of the AI issues, and had had enough.  I was ready to fling my discs out the window...

I can't take the game back, I pre-ordered the collector's edition and have played it through once already.  That would just be hypocritical.  

My point wasn't that I hate the game - I have played it through and will play it through again - my point was that the side stories aren't obviously necessary to the story.  Yes, the characters may come back in ME3, but until they do, much of this doesn't makes sense (read this thread topic again) as far as moving the main story forward.  If, in ME2, they've introduced a load of characters who will figure into the game in ME3 in epic proportions, then I will probably end up applauding ME2 for having done what it did (sort of...) but I will not applaud how they did it.

As far as you not focusing on more important issues, my comment was pointless.  You replied because you felt it necessary, just as I have been doing.

This thread is full of complaints, and there are enough people who have agreed that my comments on that matter were valid.  Remove the trolls and pointless banter and you will still be able to count a reasonable number of people who agree with the point behind the complaints, if not the sentiment or spirit in which those complaints were voiced.

As far as being polite, it's who I am. I don't feel the need to slam others just because, though I suppose, since I am human, I sometimes do anyway - it isn't my primary objective.  I have a brain and I use it because I choose to. I have a habit of trying to help others understand my point of view.  It isn't that I expect people to change their opinions - I know I can't tell anyone how to feel, or what to feel - it is that I want people to understand why many of us are disappointed - just like I can't change your mind, you aren't going to change my mind.  

If I end up liking ME2 enough to play through more than two more times, it won't be because I love the story telling any more at that point, it will be because I've come to accept it as it is, and have decided to live with its flaws.  I don't know if I'll bother, but who knows - I can't predict the future (yet!)  

I don't expect anyone to change their minds, or understand my opinions. I merely hope that I am able to present my opinion in a way that helps others open their minds to see what may be a different view point, and thereby perhaps end up understanding.  (NB : I am saying I don't expect anyone to understand, I just hope that they will)

Modifié par Ashkeldir, 19 février 2010 - 10:40 .