693 réponses à ce sujet

[tmelange]

Halfheart wrote...

Haha I like your style Zenn. I agree with everything in the OP plus more, but I'm too lazy to create a list.

ZennExile wrote...

mabalogna wrote...

12)  Because running through the end of the game with an Assault Rifle that never overheats is a lot of fun.  Seriously the ME1 combat system was really flawed, and the game designers tried to come up with a way of creating a more challenging combat experience, so they elected to introduce an ammo system, that would force a player to be more critical of where they shoot...how is that so wrong.  Sure it didn't make sense plot wise, but as a game mechanic it had to be done. 

Gonna focus here cause everything else you wrote was like Charlie Brown adults.  You know "Wah Wahwahwah?  Wah wah wah wah.  wah?  WAh WAHHH!!"  You get the idea.

What's the difference between thermal clips and a gun that overheats?  Nothing.  Semantics.   There is no depth added.  There is no challenge added.  In fact the combat system in ME2 is far easier than in ME1 because it lacks any event mechanics or tactical depth.  Take cover... power power shhhhoooooooooooooot... run run run Take cover... rinse repeat.  And even the levels were linear and mind numbingly predictable.  Hmm I wonder if there will be enemies soon... 0o0o I see short walls and boxes that make absolutely no sense lying about the place.  That must mean it's go time.

Nothing about the combat in ME2 was advanced from ME1.  All they did was make it into an over simplified cover shooter.  It's fluid now for sure.  There is a ton more combat wise you "COULD" do with it.  But instead of adding that depth to the combat Bioware just left it basic as to not frighten the RPG players away.  Basically this resulted in a combat system that is more shooter friendly but doesn't really appeal to either side of the debate now.

That's why it doesn't make sense.

Seriously though they went to a lot of trouble to explain why there was no ammo in ME1.  Jack can teach you how this makes people feel when you 180 on them like this.  Just woo her for a while and change yer mind.  (figuratively speaking.. select the option to change yer mind...)  Guess what happens?

**** OFF!!!! every time you talk to her from then on.  It's the same with ME1 fans and ammo.  Bioware took a 180 on us with blantent disregard for logical sense like everyone is so stupid they won't notice.  Well guess what.  We fukin noticed.

Would also like to add that ammo in ME2 is unlimited... In practically every fight there is a thermal clip or 2 that respawns whenever your ammo gets low. I never ran out of ammo for my weapons (pretty much just the sniper as I found the other weapons to be rather useless in comparison) after I noticed this, I just found the placed clips and camped them. There are some fights that don't have these placed clips, but said fights also tend to be short.

Also agree that ME2 combat is no more complex than ME1. The reliance on cover and the fact that the AI rarely charges you even on insanity (harbinger and Ymirs are the exception but they are also easy to kill and move slowly) makes the game ridiculously repetative.

What insanity are YOU playing, lol. Most everyone seems to rush in my playthrough; Krogans, husks, mechs, varran, those mechanical dogs, most humans will actively attempt to flank you if it is possible. The only time guys weren't coming for me on Insanity was where the terrain prohibited it, e.g. they were on the other side of a bridge or area, or something. I wish I were playing your insanity. lol

[ZennExile]

tmelange wrote...

ZennExile wrote...

Really if it was my baby I would have gone a completely different way (mostly because I have a functional imagination\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\...)
 First off Shepard would not have died.  He woulda got spaced (but not burnt up in re-entry)  Finding Shepard's body preserved by near absolute zero temp would have been 1000000000000 billion times more believable than, "he turned into a comment and we recovered his body and rebuilt him".

Then I woulda made a nuetral entity bring him back out of stasis..

Then I would made the player CHOOSE to work for the council ORRRRR Cerberus.

Then I woulda fleshed out the squad building mechanics through exploration and the completion of missions based on which path the player CHOSE to follow.

Whoa! I LIKE this. It would have given the game replay-ability, because you would have two paths to choose. But I see how this would have been a bit complicated for them, to build out two parallel paths, and have to carry it through to ME3. However, I think that their storytelling is suffering from their own cleverness: in saying that decisions will carryover, and making it a cornerstone of this franchise, they have to make it work within budget, and to do so they've dumbed-down--excuse me, streamlined the narrative so what we have is one glorified mission, with some fancy, cosmetically marketable characters. And still, the "decisions" that they are carrying forward are either trivial, handled trivially (via email) or shunted off to the side (the romances). So, they've tied their hands for little payoff.

I actually think from a writing and design standpoint it woulda been less complicated because it wouldn't really be two different paths.  You'd be on the same path for different reasons.  You'd develop relationships based on those reasons again using the overarching story elements to justify them instead of supprize someone just came into your life.  Please choose option a) seduce make fun of c) accept their existance and mvoe on.   That just didn;t do it for me.

I coulda put this story together in a way that simplified the deisgn requirements AND made it feel more complex.  Bioware seems to have gone the polar extreme route by dumbing everything down and eliminating all complexity in favor of easy to digest chunks of action based gameplay.  Shooters are awesome but Mass Effect is an RPG first.  or it should have been.

Either way I coulda done it better and made them a truckload more money.  Hindesight being 20/20 though that's not saying much other than "Bioware is slackin".

[HAGA NAGA]

HAGA NAGA wrote...

ZennExile wrote...

Tell that... Haga naga?  WTF is a haga naga?  Just tell that dude his name is stupid."

Yeah he's on the couch and we're laughin at you. 

lol. well, tell "Kenyata" he's not allowed to make fun of others names. he lost that right at birth.

ZennExile wrote...

Oh and my roomate Kenyata says "***ah please.  ***ah's don't say "black guy" (add in sterotypical funny black guy impersonating a white guy voice... think cat williams)" 

but i suppose ***ah's typically sit on white guys' couches and make comments about people in their video game thread all night. i don't know, something tells me Kenyata doesn't have much place making fun of a black guy using the term "black guy". just sayin. seems kinda funny.

[tmelange]

Nightwriter wrote...

ZennExile wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

I would’ve liked it if for each dossier you got TIM would’ve given me a quick rundown of how each recruit had caught his attention and why they were important to the mission, like he did with Mordin. Even if the explanations weren’t all that good.
 
I felt like the dossiers came out of nowhere. They just showed up in my journal. No explanations.
 
I think I could’ve come up with some pretty good reasons for why we needed even some of the more random characters: Thane, Jack, Samara…
 

What woulda really been sweet is if you woulda got sent on a mission to do something useful and you encountered these characters in some plot relavent manner instead of this "supprize we found this dude for you" sort of way.  You know like the story had some depth to it.

Really if it was my baby I would have gone a completely different way (mostly because I have a functional imagination\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\...)
 First off Shepard would not have died.  He woulda got spaced (but not burnt up in re-entry)  Finding Shepard's body preserved by near absolute zero temp would have been 1000000000000 billion times more believable than, "he turned into a comment and we recovered his body and rebuilt him".

Then I woulda made a nuetral entity bring him back out of stasis..

Then I would made the player CHOOSE to work for the council ORRRRR Cerberus.

Then I woulda fleshed out the squad building mechanics through exploration and the completion of missions based on which path the player CHOSE to follow.

Turning ME2 into an action shooter with ZERO depth to story elements and ZERO branching story arcs was like turning if Final Fantasy 7  was turned into a top down vertical aero shooter.  Let's not claim FF8 was much improved over that but still same idea.

Bioware took this whole project on the wrong way and I can honestly say as an amature writer and game designer that I would have done a much better job given the resources Bioware has and the existing lore I would have had to build on.  I garuntee it.

While I am not as vehement in my criticisms of the game as you seem to be, your suggestions do spark the imagination.

Seeing how the story arc touches each of the lives of the characters really brings the whole thing into focus for you. Thane and Garrus are examples of characters it would've been awesome to just "run into" and end up bringing along. Other characters could’ve been tied in differently.

Samara… It'd be cool if the Collectors had a very mysterious and specific interest in a certain rare genetic anomaly: the Ardat-Yakshi. When we find her, her other two daughters have been abducted by the Collectors, and are now gunning for her as the carrier of the anomaly.
 
Jack… as a writer I think I would’ve had her outfitted in childhood with a special, story-significant biotic implant that was never made again and can’t be replicated. TIM finds out later that the rogue cell that gave her this implant based it off of Collector technology.
 
Tali, Legion, Grunt… I don’t know, you come up with one. It’s fun.

Love it! This would have been outstanding, and makes the OP's point, in a much more restrained. I think the game  itself precluded this type of story depth: the fact that you can't talk to characters but on the ship; that you have to initiate all convos, that the plot has to stay somewhat streamlined else it would be impossible to produce all outcomes going forward within the 12-18 month timeline for ME3. I think Bioware created their own monster.

[smudboy]

:|

Modifié par smudboy, 19 février 2010 - 04:39 .

[Halfheart]

tmelange wrote...

Halfheart wrote...

Haha I like your style Zenn. I agree with everything in the OP plus more, but I'm too lazy to create a list.

ZennExile wrote...

mabalogna wrote...

12)  Because running through the end of the game with an Assault Rifle that never overheats is a lot of fun.  Seriously the ME1 combat system was really flawed, and the game designers tried to come up with a way of creating a more challenging combat experience, so they elected to introduce an ammo system, that would force a player to be more critical of where they shoot...how is that so wrong.  Sure it didn't make sense plot wise, but as a game mechanic it had to be done. 

Gonna focus here cause everything else you wrote was like Charlie Brown adults.  You know "Wah Wahwahwah?  Wah wah wah wah.  wah?  WAh WAHHH!!"  You get the idea.

What's the difference between thermal clips and a gun that overheats?  Nothing.  Semantics.   There is no depth added.  There is no challenge added.  In fact the combat system in ME2 is far easier than in ME1 because it lacks any event mechanics or tactical depth.  Take cover... power power shhhhoooooooooooooot... run run run Take cover... rinse repeat.  And even the levels were linear and mind numbingly predictable.  Hmm I wonder if there will be enemies soon... 0o0o I see short walls and boxes that make absolutely no sense lying about the place.  That must mean it's go time.

Nothing about the combat in ME2 was advanced from ME1.  All they did was make it into an over simplified cover shooter.  It's fluid now for sure.  There is a ton more combat wise you "COULD" do with it.  But instead of adding that depth to the combat Bioware just left it basic as to not frighten the RPG players away.  Basically this resulted in a combat system that is more shooter friendly but doesn't really appeal to either side of the debate now.

That's why it doesn't make sense.

Seriously though they went to a lot of trouble to explain why there was no ammo in ME1.  Jack can teach you how this makes people feel when you 180 on them like this.  Just woo her for a while and change yer mind.  (figuratively speaking.. select the option to change yer mind...)  Guess what happens?

**** OFF!!!! every time you talk to her from then on.  It's the same with ME1 fans and ammo.  Bioware took a 180 on us with blantent disregard for logical sense like everyone is so stupid they won't notice.  Well guess what.  We fukin noticed.

Would also like to add that ammo in ME2 is unlimited... In practically every fight there is a thermal clip or 2 that respawns whenever your ammo gets low. I never ran out of ammo for my weapons (pretty much just the sniper as I found the other weapons to be rather useless in comparison) after I noticed this, I just found the placed clips and camped them. There are some fights that don't have these placed clips, but said fights also tend to be short.

Also agree that ME2 combat is no more complex than ME1. The reliance on cover and the fact that the AI rarely charges you even on insanity (harbinger and Ymirs are the exception but they are also easy to kill and move slowly) makes the game ridiculously repetative.

What insanity are YOU playing, lol. Most everyone seems to rush in my playthrough; Krogans, husks, mechs, varran, those mechanical dogs, most humans will actively attempt to flank you if it is possible. The only time guys weren't coming for me on Insanity was where the terrain prohibited it, e.g. they were on the other side of a bridge or area, or something. I wish I were playing your insanity. lol

Hmm, a difference in playstyles I'd assume. Played a soldier long range with my sniper and sent my henchmen in close. Adrenaline rush makes headshots no challenge and anything that moved from cover was dead or quickly dead.

[tmelange]

Halfheart wrote...

Hmm, a difference in playstyles I'd assume. Played a soldier long range with my sniper and sent my henchmen in close. Adrenaline rush makes headshots no challenge and anything that moved from cover was dead or quickly dead.

I'm just a lightweight. ME is the first time I've tried to play a shooter (other than that time I played my nephew's Halo game for 10 minutes while he was in the bathroom), and I have no business playing on insanity, really. But now I can't just give up.  lol Pray for me.

Modifié par tmelange, 19 février 2010 - 05:04 .

[Nightwriter]

tmelange wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

ZennExile wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

I would’ve liked it if for each dossier you got TIM would’ve given me a quick rundown of how each recruit had caught his attention and why they were important to the mission, like he did with Mordin. Even if the explanations weren’t all that good.
 
I felt like the dossiers came out of nowhere. They just showed up in my journal. No explanations.
 
I think I could’ve come up with some pretty good reasons for why we needed even some of the more random characters: Thane, Jack, Samara…
 

What woulda really been sweet is if you woulda got sent on a mission to do something useful and you encountered these characters in some plot relavent manner instead of this "supprize we found this dude for you" sort of way.  You know like the story had some depth to it.

Really if it was my baby I would have gone a completely different way (mostly because I have a functional imagination\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\...)
 First off Shepard would not have died.  He woulda got spaced (but not burnt up in re-entry)  Finding Shepard's body preserved by near absolute zero temp would have been 1000000000000 billion times more believable than, "he turned into a comment and we recovered his body and rebuilt him".

Then I woulda made a nuetral entity bring him back out of stasis..

Then I would made the player CHOOSE to work for the council ORRRRR Cerberus.

Then I woulda fleshed out the squad building mechanics through exploration and the completion of missions based on which path the player CHOSE to follow.

Turning ME2 into an action shooter with ZERO depth to story elements and ZERO branching story arcs was like turning if Final Fantasy 7  was turned into a top down vertical aero shooter.  Let's not claim FF8 was much improved over that but still same idea.

Bioware took this whole project on the wrong way and I can honestly say as an amature writer and game designer that I would have done a much better job given the resources Bioware has and the existing lore I would have had to build on.  I garuntee it.

While I am not as vehement in my criticisms of the game as you seem to be, your suggestions do spark the imagination.

Seeing how the story arc touches each of the lives of the characters really brings the whole thing into focus for you. Thane and Garrus are examples of characters it would've been awesome to just "run into" and end up bringing along. Other characters could’ve been tied in differently.

Samara… It'd be cool if the Collectors had a very mysterious and specific interest in a certain rare genetic anomaly: the Ardat-Yakshi. When we find her, her other two daughters have been abducted by the Collectors, and are now gunning for her as the carrier of the anomaly.
 
Jack… as a writer I think I would’ve had her outfitted in childhood with a special, story-significant biotic implant that was never made again and can’t be replicated. TIM finds out later that the rogue cell that gave her this implant based it off of Collector technology.
 
Tali, Legion, Grunt… I don’t know, you come up with one. It’s fun.

Love it! This would have been outstanding, and makes the OP's point, in a much more restrained. I think the game  itself precluded this type of story depth: the fact that you can't talk to characters but on the ship; that you have to initiate all convos, that the plot has to stay somewhat streamlined else it would be impossible to produce all outcomes going forward within the 12-18 month timeline for ME3. I think Bioware created their own monster.

Thank you! I actually started the ball rolling because I was interested in hearing other ideas along these lines, as well.

If it's all right, I'd be very happy to hear what your take on a specific character would've been. Fun coming up with ideas. From your posts I think you could've created something quite good.

[ZennExile]

HAGA NAGA wrote...

HAGA NAGA wrote...

ZennExile wrote...

Tell that... Haga naga?  WTF is a haga naga?  Just tell that dude his name is stupid."

Yeah he's on the couch and we're laughin at you. 

lol. well, tell "Kenyata" he's not allowed to make fun of others names. he lost that right at birth.

ZennExile wrote...

Oh and my roomate Kenyata says "***ah please.  ***ah's don't say "black guy" (add in sterotypical funny black guy impersonating a white guy voice... think cat williams)" 

but i suppose ***ah's typically sit on white guys' couches and make comments about people in their video game thread all night. i don't know, something tells me Kenyata doesn't have much place making fun of a black guy using the term "black guy". just sayin. seems kinda funny.

I'll be the first one to tell ya Ken is a lazy couch-riding mofo, but he pays his bills and his girlfriend is smokin hawt.  So whatevah works.  Now if I could get him to buy his own food instead of leaving dollar bills in my food containers... we'd be fukin set.

[tmelange]

Nightwriter wrote...

Thank you! I actually started the ball rolling because I was interested in hearing other ideas along these lines, as well.

If it's all right, I'd be very happy to hear what your take on a specific character would've been. Fun coming up with ideas. From your posts I think you could've created something quite good.

Grunt: The original krogan that you're sent after is another scientist working not to cure the genophage but to make a perfect krogan whose genetic makeup rises above the genophage (e.g. he's immune, I guess). Something that would have been more pertinent to the overall plot would be to connect the Mordin quest where we find out that humans are some sort of basic stock that can be used for experiments, and had the krogan warlord be in possession of some sort of research that could be adapted for humans to either resist the collector swarm, or resist indocrination or whatever. And, it could have been a genetic upgrade that Shep has to choose to have done to himself, or not. This way, Mordin doesn't have to come up with the countermeasure out of the blue, or divorced from the plot mechanics (he simply whips it up in a lab).

Modifié par tmelange, 19 février 2010 - 05:01 .

[ZennExile]

Actually Grunt wasn't immune to the genophage at all. EDI mentions this.

[tmelange]

Nightwriter wrote...

Thank you! I actually started the ball rolling because I was interested in hearing other ideas along these lines, as well.

If it's all right, I'd be very happy to hear what your take on a specific character would've been. Fun coming up with ideas. From your posts I think you could've created something quite good.

Thane: I think in order to justify recruiting an assassin, there has to exist some intel that dictates that there'll be a stealth/high finesse component to the mission. Or some immunity that the team needs to capitalize on. One of the things Harbinger says on the Collector ship is "Drell. Insufficient numbers for genetic material..." or some such. I just think that in a dirty dozen storyline, the mission is known beforehand, and people are recruited to handle certain parts of the mission. If they had broken the story up so that part of the mission was known, and Thane was needed to complete it, the whole recruiting scenario would have had more relevancy.

Modifié par tmelange, 19 février 2010 - 05:07 .

[Nightwriter]

tmelange wrote...

Grunt: The original krogan that you're sent after is another scientist working not to cure the genophage but to make a perfect krogan whose genetic makeup rises above the genophage (e.g. he's immune, I guess). Something that would have been more pertinent to the overall plot would be to connect the Mordin quest where we find out that humans are some sort of basic stock that can be used for experiments, and had the krogan warlord be in possession of some sort of research that could be adapted for humans to either resist the collector swarm, or resist indocrination or whatever. And, it could have been a genetic upgrade that Shep has to choose to have done to himself, or not. This way, Mordin doesn't have to come up with the countermeasure out of the blue, or divorced from the plot mechanics (he simply whips it up in a lab).

Oh, okay, I like this a lot! Yes, this would've been cool, especially since Collector technology already went into the making of Grunt and that could've been pivotal to the story, as well.

Also - the idea that one of the dossiers could be for a person who has developed technology that can make humans immune to indoctrination is a brilliant idea, and one you are to be commended for.

[ZennExile]

Randy_Mac wrote...

My eyes are bleeding from all the quoting.

these forums are mostly teh suck.... mostly.

[tmelange]

ZennExile wrote...

Actually Grunt wasn't immune to the genophage at all. EDI mentions this.

I must admit, I fast forwarded through all the convo on that quest. It bored me. What was Grunt's point then?

[tmelange]

Randy_Mac wrote...

My eyes are bleeding from all the quoting.

Sorry. My bad. Fixed it up. Will keep your eyes in mind.

[Aisynia]

OP needs tranquilizers.

[Nightwriter]

tmelange wrote...

ZennExile wrote...

Actually Grunt wasn't immune to the genophage at all. EDI mentions this.

I must admit, I fast forwarded through all the convo on that quest. It bored me. What was Grunt's point then?

I think you will find that Grunt had no point the way you are thinking of it. It was expressed that we needed soldiers and he was a soldier.

It was sort of like, "Well, Okeer's dead and here we have this massive pureblood krogan..." *shrug* "Let's take him with us!"

My reason for Grunt's importance would've had something to do with the Collector technology in him. Okeer already said all his data was consumed in his prototype. I would've focused more on that.

[tmelange]

Nightwriter wrote...

Oh, okay, I like this a lot! Yes, this would've been cool, especially since Collector technology already went into the making of Grunt and that could've been pivotal to the story, as well.

Also - the idea that one of the dossiers could be for a person who has developed technology that can make humans immune to indoctrination is a brilliant idea, and one you are to be commended for.

I think one of the things you would have to deal with is why this group of people. Why recruit a group of laypeople? A group you have to buy, break out of jail, that are not loyal, not trained, don't wear...armor. lol Why not the 11 most kick-ass soldiers? The 11 most kick-ass Seals, or whatever they call spec ops in the ME universe. How about 11 Spectres? The way it's handled it's almost as if the appearance of these teammates was the most important thing, rather than the context. 

Modifié par tmelange, 19 février 2010 - 05:14 .

[MattGlenn]

ZennExile wrote...

Why would these people be able to upgrade the Normandy?  Tali I will give you.  Garrus?  No.  Thane?  No.  They aren't scientists they are soldiers.  As Thane would put it, "Tools".  They shouldn't have any clue even how the Normandy functions let alone how to make it better.

There are so many different ways they could have used exploration and research to implement upgrades to the Normandy that it simply doesn't make sense to "half-ass" it using completely unbelievable dialogue options...

They don't know how to upgrade the Normandy, they have knowledge of technology that might be useful. This is explained in game by the fact you can't actually upgrade anything without Mordin who is stated as a genius and stated he has very high level of technical knowledge hence being able to figure out how to solve the swarmer problem. Combine Mordins genius with EDIs knowledge of the ship and suddenly being able to figure out how to incorporate new technology into the ship is quite plausible.

[theREALsquidmaster]

#16 -- for DLC, bro. I finished the game, then downloaded some new missions and zaeed.



as for the rest, I completely agree. Fire half the people at bioware because they're retarded.



I think all the good people that did ME1 just went to dragon age.

[MattGlenn]

ZennExile wrote...

this isnt my name wrote...

Umm thane/samara are tied in because you are recruiting a team, they are the best and have skills you need, therefore it ties in...Idiot.

Have you ever read a book?  Is this your first RPG? You ever taken a creative writing class or care to take a guess as to what that might entale?

I didn't think so.  But I'm glad you learned to read that's the first step. 

Go read Lord of the Rings again, building the fellowship is almost no different than having files on potential recruits and going and finding them. Basically it is we have to stop in these places and pick up these people who will be useful because they are the best at what they do.

[ZennExile]

tmelange wrote...

ZennExile wrote...

Actually Grunt wasn't immune to the genophage at all. EDI mentions this.

I must admit, I fast forwarded through all the convo on that quest. It bored me. What was Grunt's point then?

it's all about Korgan peen.  Grunt is supposed to be the perfect krogan and only perfect krogan deserve to survive the genophage.  Tip of the spear that sort of thing.  It was overly dramatic and poorly written so I don't blame you for skipping it.

[ZennExile]

MattGlenn wrote...

ZennExile wrote...

this isnt my name wrote...

Umm thane/samara are tied in because you are recruiting a team, they are the best and have skills you need, therefore it ties in...Idiot.

Have you ever read a book?  Is this your first RPG? You ever taken a creative writing class or care to take a guess as to what that might entale?

I didn't think so.  But I'm glad you learned to read that's the first step. 

Go read Lord of the Rings again, building the fellowship is almost no different than having files on potential recruits and going and finding them. Basically it is we have to stop in these places and pick up these people who will be useful because they are the best at what they do.

Holy crap did you just make a fake Fellowship analogy?  Someone get me a rope and I'll start the fire.

Really though have you read the books in the last 20 years?  You seem to be missing a large peace of the puzzle.  The fellowship was formed because those characters were brought together in previous story arcs and they all intertwine later into over arching story elements that are quite complex.  The complexity of the over arching story elements in tokken's writing is remarkable to say the least.  You insult his memory by making up this random crap and pretending you understand the artform.