252 réponses à ce sujet

[Sn0wst0rm]

SirGladiator wrote...

I think that some folks are making the claim that based on 2010 scientific knowledge there is no way for a human and a quarian to have a child. I imagine that is true. Certainly there have been some mighty long posts about why that works the way it does, and Im sure thats all very accurate. However the game is set in the future, WAY off in the future, where all sorts of things happen that would be impossible by today's scientific knowledge and experience.

Mass Effect is set roughly 170 years into the future, that's not all that way off. Obviously there are leaps in scientific knowledge, read the codex.

SirGladiator wrote...

We know that in the future not only can men and women of different species have children, WOMEN and women of different species can have children, just ask Liara about that .

Asari use a modified form of parthenogenesis, they do not exchange DNA. Therefore, the children that are produced are not really biological reproduction in terms of the Asari in questions partner. This has been covered in the thread.

SirGladiator wrote...

There is literally nothing stopping Shepard (of any gender) from having a child with Tali, if he/she wants to. All it would take is some kind of high tech scientific device or drug or procedure or whatever, and they could explain in detail how it works or not explain it at all, either way would be fine, because the bottom line is this is Science Fiction, and stuff like that is just as possible as your imagination allows it to be. My imagination allows it to be 100% possible .

Did you read the thread or are you only posting to support Tali babies? Most of this stuff has been covered. Of course works of fiction allow for imagination. That is why there is an enormous amount of fan fiction available on the web. I never said that science would never one day allow the possibility of something like this happening. I did say that the story in the trilogy clearly makes an effort to show it would be unlikely or impossible. The games reference things that are happening, and allude to things that might happen in the near future. Nothing about having hybrid babies is referenced, there is only information that makes it unlikely. Throwing it in the last game for kicks makes it a cheap story element.

Modifié par Sn0wst0rm, 26 février 2010 - 07:25 .

[khaos974]

A longish answer to the problem of a hybrid child:

Prologue: read carefully what Uberpenguin7 wrote, then read my post, otherwise it would be unclear.

1) Uberpenguin7 perfectly explained why natural reproduction would be
impossible due to the dextro-levo amino acids problem. In his second post he
bypassed that problem by using uber-science; let's see what happens by using
more uber-science. I am also going to bypass this Dextro-levo problem; it could
as well be a human/drell child.

2) I'm going to expand the last part of his 2nd explanation. Humans have 23 pairs
of chromosomes, which are made of gene sequences. An approximation would be to
say that a single gene is the code to make a molecule, so a gene sequence would
contain the information needed to carry out a function. Where it gets tricky is
that we have pairs of chromosomes, one from each parent, this means that to
carry out the same functions, we have two parallel sequences, those sequences
could work together (hair color), or one could dominate another (some genetic
diseases).

2.1) Now, to carry out a function, cellular processes will read a specific
sequence, let's say chromosome 12, sequence 1239, OOPS, the human half reads
ok, the quarian half read "end of sequence 234, beginning of sequence
235", it even codes an entirely different function, the human half reads “eye
color” and the quarian half reads “brain cell composition”. And the quarian DNA has
93 sequences to code for eye structure while the human DNA only has 43 sequences,
OOPS again.

2.2) How should we get read of this pesky little problem? Simple, for every
shared function (building a specific protein, oxygen absorption mechanism maybe...),
let's select the appropriate gene sequences and pair them together, cool! And
for every function that only exists in one of the parents , let's get the
entire pair from one parent since the equivalent does not exist in the other;
or simple bin that specific sequence if there already is a similar function.
And one should not forget to order the gene sequences to make it readable,
cool! Problem solved! Wait... Selecting the genes from each parent, does it
sound awfully like eugenics? OOPS! Wait again... remapping an entire genome
with chosen gene sequences, that sounds like creating a new species, double
OOPS!!! (Never mind the level of knowledge required to do that).

2.3) Now that we have the theory to work out the Tali/FemShep baby (just to add
to the absurdity of the situation even if I support this pairing). Let's
consider what this baby is: a mesh of Quarian/Humain DNA, in an order that
wouldn't make it the genetic child of either parents, OOPS! An individual which
entire genome was decided by the team of scientists working on its creation
OOPS again! A unique individual who could only have a child naturally which
another individual of the same species (and there are none other in the whole
universe) triple OOPS! A zoo animal!

2.4) Now let's talk about the means to get such a baby, the most advanced
biosciences I've seen in ME were the recreation of the Rachni (easy, they had
an egg), the genophage (easy again=virus that affect the viability of fetuses),
and trying to cure the Drell problem of living in humid places: the Hanar are
motivated about it, there are hundreds of thousands of surviving Drells and it
will take YEARS to complete.

And of course, re-adapting the quarian immune system to their homeworld =>
60 years, to another world => 600 years, the scales are given by Tali in her
loyalty mission. Rewriting part of the human DNA (the part for the immune system)
in dextro amino acids based DNA, adapting it to quarian bodies and injecting them
into the quarian genome should be considerably easier that doing the same thing
for the whole genome, shouldn't it?

Scale wise, the two last project combined don't reach a hundredth the scale of
creating a human/quarian hybrid OOPS. If one had the money and expertise to do
so, they should solve both the Quarian and Drell problems first. OOPS again.
And how many unviable specimens are you going to make before getting a viable
one, triple OOPS!!!

3) One last comment, reversing the DNA orientation and copying/pasting DNA is
the ONLY way to make a hybrid. This situation is the same water boiling: at
1bar, on earth, water will always boil at 100°C. You can’t bypass this no
matter how advanced your technology will be.

To finish,

Ah, yes, the "hybrids", the alledged possibility of alien babies violating common sense, we have dismissed that claim.

Edited the part about the quarian immune system to make it clearer

Modifié par khaos974, 26 février 2010 - 03:34 .

[Sith_exar_kun]

khaos974 wrote...

A longish answer to the problem of a hybrid child:

Prologue: read carefully what Uberpenguin7 wrote, then read my post, otherwise it would be unclear.

1) Uberpenguin7 perfectly explained why natural reproduction would be
impossible due to the dextro-levo amino acids problem. In his second post he
bypassed that problem by using uber-science; let's see what happens by using
more uber-science. I am also going to bypass this Dextro-levo problem; it could
as well be a human/drell child.

2) I'm going to expand the last part of his 2nd explanation. Humans have 23 pairs
of chromosomes, which are made of gene sequences. An approximation would be to
say that a single gene is the code to make a molecule, so a gene sequence would
contain the information needed to carry out a function. Where it gets tricky is
that we have pairs of chromosomes, one from each parent, this means that to
carry out the same functions, we have two parallel sequences, those sequences
could work together (hair color), or one could dominate another (some genetic
diseases).

2.1) Now, to carry out a function, cellular processes will read a specific
sequence, let's say chromosome 12, sequence 1239, OOPS, the human half reads
ok, the quarian half read "end of sequence 234, beginning of sequence
235", it even codes an entirely different function, the human half reads “eye
color” and the quarian half reads “brain cell composition”. And the quarian DNA has
93 sequences to code for eye structure while the human DNA only has 43 sequences,
OOPS again.

2.2) How should we get read of this pesky little problem? Simple, for every
shared function (building a specific protein, oxygen absorption mechanism maybe...),
let's select the appropriate gene sequences and pair them together, cool! And
for every function that only exists in one of the parents , let's get the
entire pair from one parent since the equivalent does not exist in the other;
or simple bin that specific sequence if there already is a similar function.
And one should not forget to order the gene sequences to make it readable,
cool! Problem solved! Wait... Selecting the genes from each parent, does it
sound awfully like eugenics? OOPS! Wait again... remapping an entire genome
with chosen gene sequences, that sounds like creating a new species, double
OOPS!!! (Never mind the level of knowledge required to do that).

2.3) Now that we have the theory to work out the Tali/FemShep baby (just to add
to the absurdity of the situation even if I support this pairing). Let's
consider what this baby is: a mesh of Quarian/Humain DNA, in an order that
wouldn't make it the genetic child of either parents, OOPS! An individual which
entire genome was decided by the team of scientists working on its creation
OOPS again! A unique individual who could only have a child naturally which
another individual of the same species (and there are none other in the whole
universe) triple OOPS! A zoo animal!

2.4) Now let's talk about the means to get such a baby, the most advanced
biosciences I've seen in ME were the recreation of the Rachni (easy, they had
an egg), the genophage (easy again=virus that affect the viability of fetuses),
and trying to cure the Drell problem of living in humid places: the Hanar are
motivated about it, there are hundreds of thousands of surviving Drells and it
will take YEARS to complete.

And of course, re-adapting the quarian immune system to their homeworld =>
60 years, to another world => 600 years, the scales are given by Tali in her
loyalty mission. Rewriting part of the human DNA in dextro amino acids
based DNA and injecting them into the quarian genome should be considerably
easier that doing the same thing for the whole genome, shouldn't it?

Scale wise, the two last project combined don't reach a hundredth the scale of
creating a human/quarian hybrid OOPS. If one had the money and expertise to do
so, they should solve both the Quarian and Drell problems first. OOPS again.
And how many unviable specimens are you going to make before getting a viable
one, triple OOPS!!!

3) One last comment, reversing the DNA orientation and copying/pasting DNA is
the ONLY way to make a hybrid. This situation is the same water boiling: at
1bar, on earth, water will always boil at 100°C. You can’t bypass this no
matter how advanced your technology will be.

To finish,

Ah, yes, the "hybrids", the alledged possibility of alien babies violating common sense, we have dismissed that claim.

Best post ever.
I hope this will shut down all the hybrid fans.
And I hope Bioware will put some dialogue line about that somwhere

[tiberius_adamantine]

khaos974 wrote...

A longish answer to the problem of a hybrid child:

Prologue: read carefully what Uberpenguin7 wrote, then read my post, otherwise it would be unclear.

1) Uberpenguin7 perfectly explained why natural reproduction would be
impossible due to the dextro-levo amino acids problem. In his second post he
bypassed that problem by using uber-science; let's see what happens by using
more uber-science. I am also going to bypass this Dextro-levo problem; it could
as well be a human/drell child.

2) I'm going to expand the last part of his 2nd explanation. Humans have 23 pairs
of chromosomes, which are made of gene sequences. An approximation would be to
say that a single gene is the code to make a molecule, so a gene sequence would
contain the information needed to carry out a function. Where it gets tricky is
that we have pairs of chromosomes, one from each parent, this means that to
carry out the same functions, we have two parallel sequences, those sequences
could work together (hair color), or one could dominate another (some genetic
diseases).

2.1) Now, to carry out a function, cellular processes will read a specific
sequence, let's say chromosome 12, sequence 1239, OOPS, the human half reads
ok, the quarian half read "end of sequence 234, beginning of sequence
235", it even codes an entirely different function, the human half reads “eye
color” and the quarian half reads “brain cell composition”. And the quarian DNA has
93 sequences to code for eye structure while the human DNA only has 43 sequences,
OOPS again.

2.2) How should we get read of this pesky little problem? Simple, for every
shared function (building a specific protein, oxygen absorption mechanism maybe...),
let's select the appropriate gene sequences and pair them together, cool! And
for every function that only exists in one of the parents , let's get the
entire pair from one parent since the equivalent does not exist in the other;
or simple bin that specific sequence if there already is a similar function.
And one should not forget to order the gene sequences to make it readable,
cool! Problem solved! Wait... Selecting the genes from each parent, does it
sound awfully like eugenics? OOPS! Wait again... remapping an entire genome
with chosen gene sequences, that sounds like creating a new species, double
OOPS!!! (Never mind the level of knowledge required to do that).

2.3) Now that we have the theory to work out the Tali/FemShep baby (just to add
to the absurdity of the situation even if I support this pairing). Let's
consider what this baby is: a mesh of Quarian/Humain DNA, in an order that
wouldn't make it the genetic child of either parents, OOPS! An individual which
entire genome was decided by the team of scientists working on its creation
OOPS again! A unique individual who could only have a child naturally which
another individual of the same species (and there are none other in the whole
universe) triple OOPS! A zoo animal!

2.4) Now let's talk about the means to get such a baby, the most advanced
biosciences I've seen in ME were the recreation of the Rachni (easy, they had
an egg), the genophage (easy again=virus that affect the viability of fetuses),
and trying to cure the Drell problem of living in humid places: the Hanar are
motivated about it, there are hundreds of thousands of surviving Drells and it
will take YEARS to complete.

And of course, re-adapting the quarian immune system to their homeworld =>
60 years, to another world => 600 years, the scales are given by Tali in her
loyalty mission. Rewriting part of the human DNA (the part for the immune system)
in dextro amino acids based DNA, adapting it to quarian bodies and injecting them
into the quarian genome should be considerably easier that doing the same thing
for the whole genome, shouldn't it?

Scale wise, the two last project combined don't reach a hundredth the scale of
creating a human/quarian hybrid OOPS. If one had the money and expertise to do
so, they should solve both the Quarian and Drell problems first. OOPS again.
And how many unviable specimens are you going to make before getting a viable
one, triple OOPS!!!

3) One last comment, reversing the DNA orientation and copying/pasting DNA is
the ONLY way to make a hybrid. This situation is the same water boiling: at
1bar, on earth, water will always boil at 100°C. You can’t bypass this no
matter how advanced your technology will be.

To finish,

Ah, yes, the "hybrids", the alledged possibility of alien babies violating common sense, we have dismissed that claim.

Edited the part about the quarian immune system to make it clearer

I've been talking w/ Uberpenguin7 regarding this topic, so I know some of the problems that may exist.
That said, they are POTENTIAL problems. The genetic code, and how it differs from humans, of any alien
race is UNKNOWN. It seems that many assumptions made on why this can't work are based on these
problems which may or may not exist, and the degree of the problem could also be in question. The legal
issue really isn't one, after all many places operate outside of council or alliance jurisdiction. The potential
for the neccessary technology exists as this work is science fiction, it has knowledge that we don't. It has
already happened a number of times where people say, this isn't possible/this can't happen, but then it does.
With new knowledge and new technologies, different possibilites open up. I think it is premature to say that
something isn't possible when all the facts aren't known.

As for people, who doubt the story potential, what you are actually questioning is the competence and skill of the writers, an insult i'm sure they don't deserve. No one said that this would/should take the focus away from the reapers,the suggestion of this taking away from the plot is just unfounded. A skilled writer could integrate this into the story without diminishing the rest of the plot. The bigger issue here isn't whether it could happen, but if it should happen. Those with human-alien relationships might like the idea. Those who don't have this
relationship shouldn't care so much.

[Sith_exar_kun]

You are crazy man, listen, i want Tali ready to kick some synthetic ass not feeding a useless hibrid.

You are always repeating the same thing, and everyone's telling you it's impossible!

Liek breeding a human/cat hybrid.

You just can't.

[khaos974]

tiberius_adamantine wrote...

I've been talking w/ Uberpenguin7 regarding this topic, so I know some of the problems that may exist.
That said, they are POTENTIAL problems. The genetic code, and how it differs from humans, of any alien
race is UNKNOWN. It seems that many assumptions made on why this can't work are based on these
problems which may or may not exist, and the degree of the problem could also be in question.

Occam's razor principle, would it be more reasonnable to assume that to life forms that evolved in totally
seperate places managed to end up with the same genetic structure? Or to assume that they somehow ended
up with similar function? I would remind you that convergent evolution is a similitude of functions and not of genetic sequences. I admit that statistically the chance of ending up with a similar genome is not equal to zero, but
it is akin a man getting hit by a meteorite made of pure gold; that is to say that the chance of it happening is so ridiculously low that it can be considered zero in practice.
Just because something is UNKNOWN does not mean one cannot make accurate assumption on this subject: I don't know how whisky is made, but based on other known alcoholic beverages, I can have a pretty accurate idea of the stages of whisky's fabrication. Same thing with DNA.

The legal issue really isn't one, after all many places operate outside of council or alliance jurisdiction.

I wasn't talking about a legal issue, but from a moral one. Why would someone make an artificial child which would be "eugenically correct" and the sole member of their own species.

The potential for the neccessary technology exists as this work is science fiction, it has knowledge that we don't. It has already happened a number of times where people say, this isn't possible/this can't happen, but then it does. With new knowledge and new technologies, different possibilites open up. I think it is premature to say that
something isn't possible when all the facts aren't known.

As I wrote previously, if such a high level of genetic engineering was available, both the Drell problem and the quarian immune sytem problem would have already been solved a long time ago since the level of bioengineering needed is much lower that of making a hybrid.

As for people, who doubt the story potential, what you are actually questioning is the competence and skill of the writers, an insult i'm sure they don't deserve. No one said that this would/should take the focus away from the reapers,the suggestion of this taking away from the plot is just unfounded. A skilled writer could integrate this into the story without diminishing the rest of the plot. The bigger issue here isn't whether it could happen, but if it should happen. Those with human-alien relationships might like the idea. Those who don't have this
relationship shouldn't care so much.

You should read my post better, at no point, I wrote that I doubted the story potential of such a plot, but since we are at it, there are 3 alien LIs (4including Liara) out of a total of 9 LIs. That means only a third of the possibilities are concerned by such a scenario. Amongst this third, based on this thread, a lot of people are not interested by such a possibility. That means the devs would have to make three slightly different side stories for a minor player population. In short, it would too expensive if they made a big plot point for a minority of players and the number of problems with the creation of a hybrid are too numerous to solve as a minor side quest. Result: it won't be done.

To sum it up:

1) Mesh human/quarian DNA is still a big scientifically speaking.
2) The creation of such a child is morally questionable
3) You are in fact talking of genetic engineering a new species
4) Such a high level of bio engineering is unheard of in ME.

As of now, the issue raised in my previous post remain unsolved.

5) Making such a scenario is a low return on investment project for Bioware  (the only really new point in this post)

In my opinion, solving points 1 to 4 would involve Reapers using their own tech, we have no idea of their capacities and their motivations, morals are not an issue for them. But making this scenario work without turning it into a Deus ex Machina or an overly crazy plot idea would be near impossible.

Without contradicting the existing canon or introducing whole new elements, making a hybrid would be impossible.

And please re-read carefully this post and my previous one before your next answer, I feel that some points I made were not clear to you and that you missed the subtleties in it since they were not addressed in your answer. It could be because I am not a native English speaker, but if the problems you have my my post are due to linguistic mistakes, please ask me to clarify.

PS: If the devs succeed at making a real plot out of a hybrid out of Shepard and Tali, kudos to them, because there is a 99.99% chance that it will turn into fanservice.

Modifié par khaos974, 26 février 2010 - 06:58 .

[Jazharah]

Skimming over the OP I keep thinking "You can't inseminate rats with human semen either. Well, you could, but without any effect. Even though DNA structures are 96% similar."

You can put more stuff in the thing more stuff goes into, but it won't make a baby.

Sorry snookums, you'll have to resort to adopting.

[khaos974]

Despite my (very) long posts, I forgot to mention the most important point, the one that allow my arguments to make sense: genre rules.

The Mass Effect universe as we are shown follows all the rules of physics as we know except for one thing: element zero and the mass effect. As such, it can be qualified as "hard" SF. The rules are internally consistent and consistent with current physics.

Creating space babies, and not taking into account the points I mentionned above would be breaking out of the genre. If Tali was an elf, Shepard a human and biotics the Force, I would have no problem with hybrids, simply because it would be space opera, which takes a lot of liberties with science and ethics.

Modifié par khaos974, 26 février 2010 - 07:12 .

[Sn0wst0rm]

tiberius_adamantine wrote...

I've been talking w/ Uberpenguin7 regarding this topic, so I know some of the problems that may exist.
That said, they are POTENTIAL problems. The genetic code, and how it differs from humans, of any alien
race is UNKNOWN.

Even on Earth, similar structures(ie. organs) in different species have different genetic sequences that code for them(This is a problem). You say that genetics of an alien race are unknown, yet we know that they are based on an incompatible amino acid. Even if that isn't a problem in ME(We already know it is, listen to the quarian talking to the turian in the club on Illium), their dna would have to be otherwise identical to ours for viablilty. It obviously isn't, as we can see structural differences through their suits(ie, hands, feet, legs, glowing eyes).

tiberius_adamantine wrote...

It seems that many assumptions made on why this can't work are based on these
problems which may or may not exist, and the degree of the problem could also be in question. The legal
issue really isn't one, after all many places operate outside of council or alliance jurisdiction.

Even if they could get around council and alliance jurisdiction, why would they? That is just something that does not fit with Tali's character. Plus, there is already a big plot item set up with Tali for ME3(No spoilers, if you don't know what I am talking about you need to play ME2 again).

tiberius_adamantine wrote...

The potential for the neccessary technology exists as this work is science fiction, it has knowledge that we don't. It has already happened a number of times where people say, this isn't possible/this can't happen, but then it does.
With new knowledge and new technologies, different possibilites open up. I think it is premature to say that
something isn't possible when all the facts aren't known.

I already covered this in my last post. But to clarify, in ME, Humans are relatively close in scientific knowledge to where we are now. If illegal bioengineering of hybrid children was going to be a plot point, they would have brought it up as Shepard cruises around in ME2(Again Spoilers, Play ME2 if you don't know where you are).

tiberius_adamantine wrote...

As for people, who doubt the story potential, what you are actually questioning is the competence and skill of the writers, an insult i'm sure they don't deserve. No one said that this would/should take the focus away from the reapers,the suggestion of this taking away from the plot is just unfounded. A skilled writer could integrate this into the story without diminishing the rest of the plot. The bigger issue here isn't whether it could happen, but if it should happen. Those with human-alien relationships might like the idea. Those who don't have this
relationship shouldn't care so much.

You are not a Bioware writer, so do not assume I would slight their writing abilities. I have played through ME 1 about 10 times, and am on my 6th play through of ME 2, I clearly enjoy them. I have played through all the potential MaleShep romances. I am not saying that it is bad because they are aliens. I am saying it is bad because adding it as a story element at the end of the trilogy just does not mesh with the quality writing they have written so far. The games are tied together very well, and this would be a last minute addition. What I am questioning is your reasoning since you are the one bringing up having them add something that they have made nearly impossible in all manners of its meaning,.

Modifié par Sn0wst0rm, 26 février 2010 - 07:25 .

[Harbinger of your Destiny]

as i said in another thread

you are more closely related to a palm tree than a quarian.

[Sn0wst0rm]

khaos974 wrote...

Despite my (very) long posts, I forgot to mention the most important point, the one that allow my arguments to make sense: genre rules.

The Mass Effect universe as we are shown follows all the rules of physics as we know except for one thing: element zero and the mass effect. As such, it can be qualified as "hard" SF. The rules are internally consistent and consistent with current physics.

Creating space babies, and not taking into account the points I mentionned above would be breaking out of the genre. If Tali was an elf, Shepard a human and biotics the Force, I would have no problem with hybrids, simply because it would be space opera, which takes a lot of liberties with science and ethics.

+1

[Sn0wst0rm]

Harbinger of your Destiny wrote...

as i said in another thread

you are more closely related to a palm tree than a quarian.

True dat.

Unfortuantly, the OP just wants it in the game. There have been plenty of arguments about this in the forums, he is just the most subborn, and adament about getting it into the game, because "it can work".

Modifié par Sn0wst0rm, 26 février 2010 - 07:36 .

[Sn0wst0rm]

tiberius_adamantine wrote...

Given what we know, what is yet unknown, and Mass Effect’s future technology they can make it work. All it will take is an explanation from the developers, either ingame or outside. This explanation wouldn’t need to get too detailed, just enough to confirm what I’ve already said. Hopefully we can make this work and I look forward to seeing the different responses to this forum.

That is not a formula for good science fiction writing. This is exactly why it should not be in ME3, and why what you want is FANSERVICE.

Edit: Pulled this from OP's modified first post.

Modifié par Sn0wst0rm, 26 février 2010 - 07:46 .

[brianstar]

You hating vermits, tiberius_adamantine has a good point, and you should believe it!! closed minded fools!

[Andaius20]

Wow he's still harping on about this?

[tiberius_adamantine]

I think that in regards to this topic, many people are looking at this the wrong way. Technology in this universe is miles ahead of where it is now. In ME 1, Anderson comments that finding the prothean cache on mars jumped humanities technology forth 200 years. Given this, and how many years this is in the future, new incredible technologies are a given. Research also gains a benefit because different species are able to work together and bring all kinds of new knowledge to the table, also a given.

What isn’t readily known is how much research goes into genetic and bio-engineering. Some have argued that the creation of a hybrid child isn’t likely because there are more pressing concerns in the galaxy than the very small minority of cross-species couples, asari-related couples
excluded because they can breed regardless. Many might not be willing to research into the creation of a hybrid child, but can end up with that result indirectly. Many promising new products and scientific information have their roots in military projects. The internet, for example, was originally, in its previous form, developed by the military but then became adapted and further developed for civilian use. Since then the internet has changed considerably.

So what does this have to do with the topic? This shows that the technology for creating hybrid children could plausibly come from a source that intended to use the information for other purposes. Genetic engineering has already solved a number of problems. In the alliance’s case:
“Most governments provide free assessments and corrective therapy for genetic diseases in prospective parents. This has nearly eliminated everything from cystic fibrosis to nearsightedness.” This is already an indication of changes to what is currently known in genetic engineering, although it is currently being explored.

However, even this has its limitations. Despite how well this works, there are still limitations that could not be addressed so easily within every race. But what one can’t address another might be able to. Sometimes “aliens” have useful genetics that could be adapted to better yourself. So in all likeliness, genetic research is likely being conducted to find ways of using alien traits to address a number of medical concerns and for other genetic enhancement projects, both legal and otherwise.

So what does this matter in terms of plot? As with anything, such engineering could be used with noble intentions or ones far less so. Some are likely researching into this to create such things as “super soldiers” and as potential bio-weapons. Both good and bad potentials are part of the same coin, the potential for a hybrid child being the rim not so commonly thought of.

So then a potential story mission is to investigate a bio/genetic engineering device that has these capabilities. Whether this is new technology, or one created by a previous race doesn’t matter. Sheppard would have to fight his way through enemies also seeking this device for various reasons, such as the Shadow Broker and Cerberus. Who he fights isn’t really important either, but I thought these would be good enemies. After Sheppard finds the device, there comes a debate over what to do with it. Both the potential for good and for bad are stated so Sheppard must now decide what to do with it.

Now, here is where the fun begins! Even though it was designed for different reasons, the possibility of using it to create cross-species children comes up. However, this would receive a small amount of additional, but very interesting, dialog if Sheppard romanced an alien LI (asari excluded). It then turns into a decision on whether or not to destroy the device or keep it, and then how to use it later.

Working the mission this way, different results are able to be achieved based on the player’s personal preference. Those who want to pursue the possibility of using it for medical development could do that, those who want to use it to develop modifications for soldiers and potentially a weapon, could do this, those who want to use it for the hybrid child as a side request could do so, or the player could simply decide that it is too dangerous and destroy it.

This then becomes a mission deemed important in terms of plot that also can have more personal meaning to Sheppard. The way this works is that it has enough options to be used in different ways. You can choose to preserve it for medical research, with or without the hybrid child factor, use it for war, or simply destroy it. This solution should work well for the players, even given differing opinions on the issue.

Naturally the mission doesn’t have to work quite like this, but I think that the general idea is good. It provides something that everyone could enjoy, for one reason or a few. Those who don’t think the technology is close enough to achieve the result, consider this: The Reapers created the keepers using bio-engineering, they also created the husks and the collectors using advanced techniques. Although this differs from the intended use of the device, it remains a stepping stone and leaves the potential for others to also stumble upon some of this field’s secrets.

Even though the player has the option to seek out the hybrid child subplot, it won’t manifest in the story’s quest-line. So then why does it matter? Seeking this option will still provide some interesting dialog with the player’s LI once they have returned to the ship. Additionally, it will also climax within the end movie. One might think that this means the developers will have to make many different ending, but in perspective this isn’t really true. They can set up general guidelines where the issue simply allows all LIs to occupy the same place in the endgame, like what they already do for their in-game movies. A scene involving a child would also work in the same way and not take up too much space.

It has been argued, even if this were legal would it be ethical? My answer is that yes, it is ethical and from a certain perspective not seeking it out would be unethical. Why? Because the issue of “race” often poses a challenge to unity and stability. Sometimes this issue can create problems as the different peoples can be more indifferent to what happens to the others because they are a different race, a different group. Intermarriage has often been a beginning step in resolving differences between these groups who only thought that they were different. In reality they find they are more alike than unalike. This becomes strengthened by the possibility of a hybrid child, said child would blur the walls that divide the different species. It will be difficult at first, such changes usually are at first, but such a development could in the long run benefit the galaxy. Although explaining this isn’t essential to the idea’s potential, I felt it deserved the time to be addressed.

Hopefully this starts to put things into a new perspective. The plan isn’t perfect but the general design should help. I welcome ideas to help improve upon this idea. I know that not everyone will like this, but not everyone is ever happy with anything. Still, I think this is a good compromise. If you must criticize the idea, I ask that you discuss the idea in an overall statement instead of trying to criticize it paragraph by paragraph. It would be frustrating to be criticized with a point that is discussed later after all.

Modifié par tiberius_adamantine, 27 février 2010 - 01:30 .

[tiberius_adamantine]

khaos974 wrote...

I wasn't talking about a legal issue, but from a moral one. Why would someone make an artificial child which would be "eugenically correct" and the sole member of their own species.

You should read my post better, at no point, I wrote that I doubted the story potential of such a plot,

 
I quoted you for a referance, but wasn't talking specifically to you.
I was addressing all people who raised these perspectives.

[staldore13]

i would usualy bust out some freshman biology crap but this is where the fi comes in for sci fi



if you want it hard enough get on your knees and beg to bioware



and they will consider it



it was done for spock they can do it for littlebabymutantshep give him a shot at life

personaly i hope not or at least put in a wear condom choice

[PyroFreak301]

It's gonna be one hell of an ugly kid.

[Sn0wst0rm]

tiberius_adamantine wrote...

I think that in regards to this topic, many people are looking at this the wrong way. Technology in this universe is miles ahead of where it is now. In ME 1, Anderson comments that finding the prothean cache on mars jumped humanities technology forth 200 years. Given this, and how many years this is in the future, new incredible technologies are a given. Research also gains a benefit because different species are able to work together and bring all kinds of new knowledge to the table, also a given.

What isn’t readily known is how much research goes into genetic and bio-engineering. Some have argued that the creation of a hybrid child isn’t likely because there are more pressing concerns in the galaxy than the very small minority of cross-species couples, asari-related couples
excluded because they can breed regardless. Many might not be willing to research into the creation of a hybrid child, but can end up with that result indirectly. Many promising new products and scientific information have their roots in military projects. The internet, for example, was originally, in its previous form, developed by the military but then became adapted and further developed for civilian use. Since then the internet has changed considerably.

So what does this have to do with the topic? This shows that the technology for creating hybrid children could plausibly come from a source that intended to use the information for other purposes. Genetic engineering has already solved a number of problems. In the alliance’s case:
“Most governments provide free assessments and corrective therapy for genetic diseases in prospective parents. This has nearly eliminated everything from cystic fibrosis to nearsightedness.” This is already an indication of changes to what is currently known in genetic engineering, although it is currently being explored.

However, even this has its limitations. Despite how well this works, there are still limitations that could not be addressed so easily within every race. But what one can’t address another might be able to. Sometimes “aliens” have useful genetics that could be adapted to better yourself. So in all likeliness, genetic research is likely being conducted to find ways of using alien traits to address a number of medical concerns and for other genetic enhancement projects, both legal and otherwise.

So what does this matter in terms of plot? As with anything, such engineering could be used with noble intentions or ones far less so. Some are likely researching into this to create such things as “super soldiers” and as potential bio-weapons. Both good and bad potentials are part of the same coin, the potential for a hybrid child being the rim not so commonly thought of.

So then a potential story mission is to investigate a bio/genetic engineering device that has these capabilities. Whether this is new technology, or one created by a previous race doesn’t matter. Sheppard would have to fight his way through enemies also seeking this device for various reasons, such as the Shadow Broker and Cerberus. Who he fights isn’t really important either, but I thought these would be good enemies. After Sheppard finds the device, there comes a debate over what to do with it. Both the potential for good and for bad are stated so Sheppard must now decide what to do with it.

Now, here is where the fun begins! Even though it was designed for different reasons, the possibility of using it to create cross-species children comes up. However, this would receive a small amount of additional, but very interesting, dialog if Sheppard romanced an alien LI (asari excluded). It then turns into a decision on whether or not to destroy the device or keep it, and then how to use it later.

Working the mission this way, different results are able to be achieved based on the player’s personal preference. Those who want to pursue the possibility of using it for medical development could do that, those who want to use it to develop modifications for soldiers and potentially a weapon, could do this, those who want to use it for the hybrid child as a side request could do so, or the player could simply decide that it is too dangerous and destroy it.

This then becomes a mission deemed important in terms of plot that also can have more personal meaning to Sheppard. The way this works is that it has enough options to be used in different ways. You can choose to preserve it for medical research, with or without the hybrid child factor, use it for war, or simply destroy it. This solution should work well for the players, even given differing opinions on the issue.

Naturally the mission doesn’t have to work quite like this, but I think that the general idea is good. It provides something that everyone could enjoy, for one reason or a few. Those who don’t think the technology is close enough to achieve the result, consider this: The Reapers created the keepers using bio-engineering, they also created the husks and the collectors using advanced techniques. Although this differs from the intended use of the device, it remains a stepping stone and leaves the potential for others to also stumble upon some of this field’s secrets.

Even though the player has the option to seek out the hybrid child subplot, it won’t manifest in the story’s quest-line. So then why does it matter? Seeking this option will still provide some interesting dialog with the player’s LI once they have returned to the ship. Additionally, it will also climax within the end movie. One might think that this means the developers will have to make many different ending, but in perspective this isn’t really true. They can set up general guidelines where the issue simply allows all LIs to occupy the same place in the endgame, like what they already do for their in-game movies. A scene involving a child would also work in the same way and not take up too much space.

It has been argued, even if this were legal would it be ethical? My answer is that yes, it is ethical and from a certain perspective not seeking it out would be unethical. Why? Because the issue of “race” often poses a challenge to unity and stability. Sometimes this issue can create problems as the different peoples can be more indifferent to what happens to the others because they are a different race, a different group. Intermarriage has often been a beginning step in resolving differences between these groups who only thought that they were different. In reality they find they are more alike than unalike. This becomes strengthened by the possibility of a hybrid child, said child would blur the walls that divide the different species. It will be difficult at first, such changes usually are at first, but such a development could in the long run benefit the galaxy. Although explaining this isn’t essential to the idea’s potential, I felt it deserved the time to be addressed.

Hopefully this starts to put things into a new perspective. The plan isn’t perfect but the general design should help. I welcome ideas to help improve upon this idea. I know that not everyone will like this, but not everyone is ever happy with anything. Still, I think this is a good compromise. If you must criticize the idea, I ask that you discuss the idea in an overall statement instead of trying to criticize it paragraph by paragraph. It would be frustrating to be criticized with a point that is discussed later after all.

I applaud the work you put into this, much improved over you original post; but here are a couple of the problems with your idea...

As khaos974 mentioned, Mass Effect is a "hard" science fiction universe. In "hard" science fiction there is a logical scientific progression toward new technologies, and discoveries. The Star Trek and Star Wars Universes are soft science fiction, and use their settings as allegories for present situations. The kinds of technologies in these universes do not follow the laws of science closely(ie. Segmented lasers, fortanium alloys, and a Vulcan/Human hybrid). Hybrid children are used in science fiction as a form of social commentary, and great liberties are made with scientific reality in order to make them possible (ie. automagic technologies). While they have literary potential, they are absolutely not consistent with the style of science fiction that this universe is built upon. Especially with the facts and conversations that are within the games.

Introducing something like this at the last minute is still poor story telling. If it was going to be a compelling plot element, it would have needed to be alluded to from the first game. Missions involving illegal research into sapient race hybridization, or something to that effect. Think of all the Cerberus experiments that you run into in ME1 , and how they tie into the plot of ME2. One of the things that makes the ME Universe so compelling and aids immersion is the way that it references events that have or might happen(ie. news feeds, and characters you have met popping up). With your particular argument, you keep pushing for a Quarian-Human Hybrid, when every indictation given is that this would be impossible(as with Turians). So you would need to not only fix the problem of amino acid incompatibility, but also introduce illegal bioengineering efforts focused on creating hybrids of Humans and Quarians.

The reason that some posts have been picked apart is that it is easier to point out fallacies, and things a poster might be avoiding. If you base your argument or thesis on things that do not hold true, it will throw the entire thing into question. Unavoidable reality.

Also, you keep avoiding my allegation that this is fanservice. It seems rather clear to me that it is. It is an element that is unnecessary to the storyline(Ie. Reaper smash). Are you willing to admit that it would be?

Modifié par Sn0wst0rm, 27 février 2010 - 03:43 .

[Tekyu]

Puh-leeze. Of course it's possible! Mordin is the Frankenstein/MacGuyver hybrid of Mass Effect, he could have Tali cured and spitting out Shepard's pups in a day or two. Besides, think of the benefits of a Human/Quarian hybrid amongst the migrant fleet? That'd make their efforts to build a working immune system among their people develop that much faster to the point that they could at least colonize.



Just sayin.



Granted, She and Shepard could probably never share a meal without Shepard twisting over and probably dying... But at least the kids'll have the best of both worlds.

[Sn0wst0rm]

I already addressed the genetic engineering issue in one of my last posts. In species genetic engineering is one thing. Bioengineering hybrids is another thing entirely. Just because we gain an understanding of how to cure disease or augment ourselves does not mean that we have the knowledge of how to combine two completely different species to create a hybrid that gains any advantage.

If the ethics around modifying individual species is suspect, *cough*Genophage*cough*, I find it rather presumptuous for you to assume it is ethical to combine species. There are a number of considerations involved which you flat out ignore by doing so. I would suspect that these are the grounds on which this form of bioengineering was made illegal in the ME Universe in the first place.

Again, I do not see the motivation for adding this to the story, when things are setup up so well without it.

Edit: grammar.

Modifié par Sn0wst0rm, 27 février 2010 - 04:26 .

[Sn0wst0rm]

Tekyu wrote...

Puh-leeze. Of course it's possible! Mordin is the Frankenstein/MacGuyver hybrid of Mass Effect, he could have Tali cured and spitting out Shepard's pups in a day or two. Besides, think of the benefits of a Human/Quarian hybrid amongst the migrant fleet? That'd make their efforts to build a working immune system among their people develop that much faster to the point that they could at least colonize.

Just sayin.

Granted, She and Shepard could probably never share a meal without Shepard twisting over and probably dying... But at least the kids'll have the best of both worlds.

Thank you for taking the time to read the entire thread. Oh wait...Nice troll.

Modifié par Sn0wst0rm, 27 février 2010 - 04:04 .

[tiberius_adamantine]

Sn0wst0rm wrote...

Tekyu wrote...

Puh-leeze. Of course it's possible! Mordin is the Frankenstein/MacGuyver hybrid of Mass Effect, he could have Tali cured and spitting out Shepard's pups in a day or two. Besides, think of the benefits of a Human/Quarian hybrid amongst the migrant fleet? That'd make their efforts to build a working immune system among their people develop that much faster to the point that they could at least colonize.

Just sayin.

Granted, She and Shepard could probably never share a meal without Shepard twisting over and probably dying... But at least the kids'll have the best of both worlds.

Thank you for taking the time to read the entire thread. Oh wait...Nice troll.

Be polite. Being optimistic isn't bad. And for the love of all that is good, stop calling this fanservice! Also note that not everything gives you a heads up, and sometimes it does but is real subtle.

Modifié par tiberius_adamantine, 27 février 2010 - 04:43 .

[tiberius_adamantine]

PyroFreak301 wrote...


It's gonna be one hell of an ugly kid.

Such rude things you say, tsk tsk tsk. She'll look much better than that when the finally show her face.

Modifié par tiberius_adamantine, 27 février 2010 - 04:49 .