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Where ME2 fails


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#1
Terraneaux

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 Alright, this is gonna be long, so here goes: 

First of all, I’ve been a fan of Bioware games since playing Baldur’s Gate I as a kid.  I’m a huge rpg fan, and I’m glad when a new Bioware game comes out, both for the experience of playing the game and for the rewarding experience of being a fan of one of the best electronic game developing companies in the world.  However, it’s exactly because I’m a fan of Bioware that I am writing this post – I think Bioware is a great company who creates great games, but there’s nothing stopping them from being even better.  Basically, I think that some of the aspects of Mass Effect 2 were lackluster, and they were lackluster in a very particular way. 

 

I greatly enjoyed the original Mass Effect, but I acknowledge that it had some flaws – most notably, past a certain point, combat ceased being anything interesting, and the cover system in the game was of questionable value, and most people I spoke to about the game didn’t really use it.  The ‘elevator’ loading times were
also a little frustrating at times.  However, I still consider Mass Effect to be a *great* game, due to things like the quality of voice acting, well-designed characters and interesting character development, a wonderfully immersive world, and an exciting story that had me more or less on the edge of my seat a good portion of the time.  Sovereign’s introduction on Virmire is, in my opinion, one of the best ‘Oh ****!’ moments in any video game I’ve ever played.  So I was of course *eagerly* looking forward to Mass Effect 2. 


 

First of all, the gameplay was vastly improved between the two games.  I died a few times in the beginning as I adapted to the reality of cover being a necessity, and I found the teammate AI behaving much more intelligently. There were actually situations in which I wanted to switch weapons, which was nice.  The graphics were of course greatly improved, but what mattered more to me was the fixing of the problem where, especially in cutscenes, textures would not load immediately.  I was a little frustrated in the first game staring at certain NPCs when their faces hadn’t been fully rendered yet.  So there was definitely an ‘onwards and upwards’ feel to some aspects of the game.  But…

 

The Mass Effect series is a series of rpg’s.  The gameplay is great, and bad gameplay will wreck an otherwise good rpg, but there are a few things that set rpg’s apart from, say, a shooter or action game.  It isn’t quite story, as pretty much all games have a story, although it’s true that a story tends to have a greater impact on the quality of an rpg.  What makes a computer role-playing game is the role that is played.  I feel that in ME1, I was playing a role, in all of my various playthroughs.  In ME2, this feeling is muted.  The few times in which you would expect to be able to express what your character is thinking, such as the reunions with your ME1 LI’s and some conversations with TIM and Anderson, the opportunity is quashed via some completely milquetoast dialog options that don’t allow the character, and the player, to contest the information that is fed to them by NPC’s.  I think I echo the frustrations of a legion of gamers who wish that their character was able to be more forceful with the Council in their refusal to see you or entertain the notion of the Reapers, and that it both stretches the bounds of credulity and closes off what would be the logical avenue for a pro-Council, anti-Cerberus sort of character, in a manner that smacks of railroading.  The other situations I mentioned play out similarly. 

 

Why is this bad?  Why should players be frustrated when they’re not allowed to express what is not a fringe avenue of character development, but the logical one, building on what has happened in the first game Again, this is meant to be a role-playing game, and the Mass Effect series without the ability to play your role is just a bad third-person squad-based shooter.  As much as I enjoy the gameplay of ME2, if I just want to go shoot some aliens, I’ll play Halo. 

 

Now, a big focus of Mass Effect 2 is the team that you assemble.  While I question the utility of assembling a team primarily made up of new characters when a good deal of the first game was spent characterizing your existing team, complaining about that when it’s already happened without offering some constructive comments is pointless.  There is a decent amount of characterization here, and some of the missions are just fun, like storming Nassana Dantius’s tower (playing that at PAX last year left me giddy).  The good parts of these stages of the game play out like a well-written action movie, which is cool.  In particular, Tali’s loyalty mission seemed to me to be *very* well written, and I’m not a huge Tali fanboy.  I didn’t really appreciate some of the characters (I found Jack to be obnoxious and I wouldn’t trust her on a ship, and Samara was cool and all but I found it hard to care about all this Asari culture that just got dumped in my lap, and in any case a Renegade Shepard would probably think of her as a liability) but I didn’t dislike any of them enough to start nerd raging about it, similar to how I found Kaiden obnoxious in ME1: those characters were there to appeal to people in a different demographic than I belong to. 

 

This focus on the teammates and the process of recruiting them and securing their loyalty and emotional stability is interesting, though the main reason I find it to be ultimately disappointing is the lack of the ability to experience that kind of characterization for Shepard.  The Mass Effect games have some awesome characters, but Shepard is the protagonist, and in the end the story needs to revolve around the plot and Shepard.  In Mass Effect 1, the enemy (at least initially) is one who is both threatening the galaxy and who you have reason to have a personal grudge against (as Saren basically calls you a worthless incompetent in front of the Council, and gets away with it, in addition to all the other bad **** he’s done.  Then he kills one of your friends), and there’s an impetus to track that son of a **** down and make his life absolutely miserable.  In ME2, the enemies (Harbinger and the Collectors) are definitely a threat to the galaxy, but the personal reasons for going after them just aren’t there – instead the personal conflicts you have are directed at TIM and your old LI, and possibly the Council, all of whom cause conflicts for the character of Shepard – but none of the tension created by these conflicts is resolved by the end of the game, leaving me with the gamer equivalent of blue balls.  One could argue that this is being set up to be resolved in ME3, but I don’t think that’s the case – I feel that the ME1 cameos of your LIs (Wrex doesn’t count, as his is actually handled well) were thrown in as an afterthought, and in the end they serve to frustrate more than they serve to resolve anything, as there’s no opportunity to defuse the (unjustifiable, in my mind, but relationships don’t always work on logic) feelings of betrayal that Ash and Kaiden express, and the incident itself seems like an attempt to end the relationship despite what the player might want for their character.  I think it would have been handled better had there been more player choice involved in these scenes, but this lack of choice is part of an underlying problem with ME2 – Shepard him/herself is not shown to be much of a character over the course of the game.  The strong points of ME2 are in the characters and how they are shown to the player, but there is little chance to show Shepard, the main character, to the player.  While some might say this is an attempt to make Shepard more easily identified with by the player, I think that in the end it just draws focus away from Shepard and towards the other characters in the game.  I’m not saying they are bad people, but I believe that the writing team fell into the trap of putting more effort into the NPCs as they were ‘their’ characters, as opposed to Shepard, each particular instance of which is more a property of each player. 

 

I’m not saying that ME2 is a bad game, per se.  What I think the fundamental failure of the game is that it fails to provide what I understand as an *rpg* experience.  The game has many high points. For example, Bioware’s ability to find and utilize voice talent makes everyone else in the industry look like amateurs, and the combat is fun and manages to stay fast-paced while remaining about strategic choices in squad composition and power use.  But for Mass Effect to live up to its promises, it needs to be a good rpg. 

 

So I think a few things should be thought about going into
Mass Effect 3:

 

1)      Shepard needs to be given more attention, and his or her choices need to matter
more.  I’d like to see some more chances to express through action or words what’s going on inside Shepard’s head, and I’d like to see how the NPCs and the world around him react to that.  I feel in ME2 exactly the opposite was occurring. 

 

2)      No new teammates beyond what we have.  Going through the trouble of introducing new teammates to the fanbase at this point is going to detract from the plot, and anyone who can’t find a decent amount of the existing ones (collected from both the games) appealing and who demands more is being disingenuous. 

 

3)      A plot which doesn’t serve to box the player in.  In the first game, we had no motivation whatsoever to go work for Cerberus, whereas in the second game a very sizable portion of players would rather be working for someone else, or at least not serving Cerberus faithfully.  So why force it?

 

I threw this together because I wanted to start a thread with a more constructive tone, as opposed to just counter-trolling the people who were trolling people complaining about certain aspects of the game, so please keep things civil, if you care to respond.  

Edit: formatting.

Modifié par Terraneaux, 18 février 2010 - 11:56 .


#2
Terraneaux

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Bump?

#3
DarkNova50

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I more or less agree with your stance on the flaws in the game. Honestly, it really annoyed me the way that you were associated with Cerberus the entire game; given what we know of them from the first game, I can reasonably see a Paragon Shepard refusing to work with them whatsoever. But I think the BioWare writers were focused more heavily on the 'suicide mission' aspect of the story, which might have been more difficult to pull off if Shepard had the option of going back to the Alliance.



I definitely agree that the way in which characters were introduced was much better in the first game. In Mass Effect, you didn't go out looking for these people: you encountered them during your travels, and they organically integrated themselves into your team for specific reasons. In Mass Effect 2, you were given a list of people and told "Here, go find them" regardless of them having no reason whatsoever to really cooperate with you. And the fact that you specifically hunted them down...I understand it, from a plot point of view, but it still felt very forced to me.



Another thing that bothered me was the way the story itself was handled. It felt like I spent far too much time actually recruiting this team and getting their loyalty, and far, far too little time actually using them, or fighting the Collectors themselves. The character specific missions didn't really tie into the main plot, which bugged me.



Finally, I didn't get the same feeling of choice in the levels that BioWare usually has. In KOTOR, ME1 and DAO, your story specific missions all had choices involved somewhere along the line. Would you slaughter the Sand People or negotiate? Save the Zhu's Hope colony, or kill the infected? Bhelen or Harrowmont? The only time I felt I was given this kind of choice in ME2 was at the very end of the game with the station.



I really enjoyed playing Mass Effect 2, don't get me wrong. But I agree that there are a plethora of things that irked me about its design, and that I would like to see changed for the final game.

#4
Sofa - The - Great

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I wouldint really call it working for Cerberus, more like working with them... shepard knows the reapers are a threat and cerberus is the only group willing to help. The council denies the reapers existance.

#5
ZennExile

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I wouldn't really say vastly improved the gameplay. I'd say vastly changed it into cover shooter (Gear of War) but dumbed down the action. If they wanted to go heavy shooter they should have went for the nuts, so to speak.

Sure compared to ME1 it's much more fluid, but that ease of control is wasted on mind numbingly repetative combat scenarios with zero depth or challenge. It was like they wanted to make the combat more shooter friendly but realised at the last minute RPG players in general kinda suck at shooters so they had to tune everything back to a 7+ skill level (yeah as in 7+ years old).

#6
DarkNova50

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Sofa - The - Great wrote...

I wouldint really call it working for Cerberus, more like working with them... shepard knows the reapers are a threat and cerberus is the only group willing to help. The council denies the reapers existance.


They didn't believe in them in ME1, either. But once you brought them evidence, they let you go out and fight the visible threat: Saren and the Geth. With Veetor's data, Shepard has proof of the Collectors, and how they're abducting Human colonies.

I still think it would have been perfectly plausible for Shepard to take the Normandy, tell Cerberus to screw off, get rid of any crew members not willing to fall in line, and go back to the Council and the Alliance. Tell them what happened with Project Lazarus, show them the proof. Suddenly you're back in their good graces, gather up the old team (and whatever new ones you choose to pick up) and there you go: ready to save the galaxy again.

Instead you get railroaded into serving the Illusive Man, who shows at several points throughout the game that he's perfectly comfortable with stabbing you in the back, if it serves his needs.

#7
Chuvvy

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tl;dr

#8
The Angry One

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Sofa - The - Great wrote...

I wouldint really call it working for Cerberus, more like working with them... shepard knows the reapers are a threat and cerberus is the only group willing to help. The council denies the reapers existance.


You know the problem with that is the sheer stupidity both the Council and the Alliance have to have to ignore the threat and thus make Cerberus your only option - they have to carry the idiot ball so Shep has to go with Cerberus.
It feels like a manufactured situation.

#9
Terraneaux

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DarkNova50 wrote...

[Instead you get railroaded into serving the Illusive Man, who shows at several points throughout the game that he's perfectly comfortable with stabbing you in the back, if it serves his needs.


And remember Renegade Shep's line? "Nobody stabs me in the back, Udina!  Nobody!"

#10
Terraneaux

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Slidell505 wrote...

tl;dr


Then it wasn't for you.

#11
Guest_antilles333_*

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Where ME2 failed: Attracting someone as cynical and nitpicking as you,

#12
Terraneaux

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antilles333 wrote...

Where ME2 failed: Attracting someone as cynical and nitpicking as you,


Games should be experienced just like every other medium, and thought of just as critically.  ( I don't mean critically as in negatively, but in the sense of making a valid critique)  I don't believe it's nitpicking as I believe there are flaws in this game, and if those flaws are made note of and removed in the sequel, that would be awesome.  There are plenty of games I love that I also acknowledge have flaws, like Sacrifice or VtM: Bloodlines.  It doesn't mean I don't still like them, but ignoring their flaws is just stupid.

#13
Canez fan 1988

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DarkNova50 wrote...

Sofa - The - Great wrote...

I wouldint really call it working for Cerberus, more like working with them... shepard knows the reapers are a threat and cerberus is the only group willing to help. The council denies the reapers existance.


They didn't believe in them in ME1, either. But once you brought them evidence, they let you go out and fight the visible threat: Saren and the Geth. With Veetor's data, Shepard has proof of the Collectors, and how they're abducting Human colonies.

I still think it would have been perfectly plausible for Shepard to take the Normandy, tell Cerberus to screw off, get rid of any crew members not willing to fall in line, and go back to the Council and the Alliance. Tell them what happened with Project Lazarus, show them the proof. Suddenly you're back in their good graces, gather up the old team (and whatever new ones you choose to pick up) and there you go: ready to save the galaxy again.

Instead you get railroaded into serving the Illusive Man, who shows at several points throughout the game that he's perfectly comfortable with stabbing you in the back, if it serves his needs.



Shep doesn't have any proof of the Lazarus project. The only proof is that space station in the beginning, and that was probably handled by Cerberus, either destroyed or wiped of any incriminating data considering what went on there. Veetor's data would have proven that the human colonies were being attacked, however the Council still would not have acted considering those colonies were in the Terminus systems. Sending fleets in there could trigger an all out war. I believe Horizon was the first colony attacked within Council space. Either way, that storyline would have been predictably bland and unoriginal considering that's the same formula used in ME1.

#14
SkywardDescent

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Didn't you already make this thread?

#15
Terraneaux

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SkywardDescent wrote...

Didn't you already make this thread?


No, I renamed it.

#16
Dinkamus_Littlelog

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I found combat in ME2 to be as, if not MORE bland and boring than in ME1. This mainly comes from the fact that halfway through my first playthrough I could crank the difficulty up to insanity. And its mainly boring because biotcs are crap in ME2 once you hit insanity. I can see the appeal of the crappy rock/paper/scissors mechanic for forcing the player to use different weapons, but when Im playing an adept, I dont expect it to ruin biotics. Plus the game never did explain how shields and armour have somehow managing to block out the nigh unstoppable biotics. So yeah, my suggestion in ME3 is please dont cut the balls of biotics/tech powers to service this stupid mechanic that was probably only designed to support the shooter elements of combat. Its turned biotics into finishing moves only worthy of being used in the last five seconds of each kill.

One thing I think you did nail down was the blandness and general forced and uninteresting nature of Shepard Bioware have worked into ME2. Maybe this is the reason for their "its a third person narrative/Shepard is our character" talk they started peddling before release, contrary to ME1s "Shepard is YOUR character". Well Bioware, my advice is write Shepard better, because in ME2 he felt like a flat, emotionally retarded ******, and a farcry from the ME1 Shepard I really cared about.

Its something of a shame, since this brand new (and very impressive) interrupt system comes along as before I get the chance to really enjoy it, Shepards dialogue and actions are being railroaded far more often. You cant have complete freedom in a standard RPG, and in a shooter with weak RPG elements tacked on, where the character has a voice and certain personality traits its even harder. However, ME1 just did that much of a better job. Compare the endings of ME1 and ME2, and the way I feel about "my" Shepard its just night and day. Seeing Shepard walk away from the council at the end, compared to Shepard walking away from TIM, its hard to believe ME2 is supposed to be the sequel.

Hopefully Bioware arent patting themselves on the back too hard, and actually stop and think "No, actually we got some things right the first time that we completely ignored/ruined in ME2" and incorperate them back into ME3 as an actual improvement this time, instead of side stepping on these things, or making them worse.

Modifié par Dinkamus_Littlelog, 19 février 2010 - 12:41 .


#17
Terraneaux

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Canez fan 1988 wrote...


Shep doesn't have any proof of the Lazarus project. The only proof is that space station in the beginning, and that was probably handled by Cerberus, either destroyed or wiped of any incriminating data considering what went on there. Veetor's data would have proven that the human colonies were being attacked, however the Council still would not have acted considering those colonies were in the Terminus systems. Sending fleets in there could trigger an all out war. I believe Horizon was the first colony attacked within Council space. Either way, that storyline would have been predictably bland and unoriginal considering that's the same formula used in ME1.


It's not necessarily true that the story would have been bland or unoriginal in that case; you could have been working for either the Council or Cerberus in ME2, since you only really contact them via that ansible hologram thing.  It could just as easily have been Keith David on the other end of the line as Martin Sheen.

#18
Habelo

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how you know that his actions wont matter in me3?

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#20
Canez fan 1988

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Terraneaux wrote...

I greatly enjoyed the original Mass Effect, but I acknowledge that it had some flaws – most notably, past a certain point, combat ceased being anything interesting, and the cover system in the game was of questionable value, and most people I spoke to about the game didn’t really use it.  The ‘elevator’ loading times were
also a little frustrating at times.  However, I still consider Mass Effect to be a *great* game, due to things like the quality of voice acting, well-designed characters and interesting character development, a wonderfully immersive world, and an exciting story that had me more or less on the edge of my seat a good portion of the time.  Sovereign’s introduction on Virmire is, in my opinion, one of the best ‘Oh ****!’ moments in any video game I’ve ever played.  So I was of course *eagerly* looking forward to Mass Effect 2. 


ME1 was a great game. Right up until ME2 was released. Now I don't have the patience to sit through that mess. The cover system was not of questionable value, it was just downright horrible. Don't try and suger coat it. ME2 had plenty moments where I was on edge, and so did ME1. Both of those games succeeded in that department.


 


What makes a computer role-playing game is the role that is played.  I feel that in ME1, I was playing a role, in all of my various playthroughs.  In ME2, this feeling is muted.  The few times in which you would expect to be able to express what your character is thinking, such as the reunions with your ME1 LI’s and some conversations with TIM and Anderson, the opportunity is quashed via some completely milquetoast dialog options that don’t allow the character, and the player, to contest the information that is fed to them by NPC’s.  I think I echo the frustrations of a legion of gamers who wish that their character was able to be more forceful with the Council in their refusal to see you or entertain the notion of the Reapers, and that it both stretches the bounds of credulity and closes off what would be the logical avenue for a pro-Council, anti-Cerberus sort of character, in a manner that smacks of railroading.  The other situations I mentioned play out similarly. 


Can you elaborate on this please? Give me an example in-game where Shepard said something that you would have said differently.


The Mass Effect games have some awesome characters, but Shepard is the protagonist, and in the end the story needs to revolve around the plot and Shepard.  In Mass Effect 1, the enemy (at least initially) is one who is both threatening the galaxy and who you have reason to have a personal grudge against (as Saren basically calls you a worthless incompetent in front of the Council, and gets away with it, in addition to all the other bad **** he’s done.  Then he kills one of your friends), and there’s an impetus to track that son of a **** down and make his life absolutely miserable.


That's petty. There was no personal grudge between Shep and Saren, Saren just needed to be stopped because he was going to wipe out the galaxy.



 In ME2, the enemies (Harbinger and the Collectors) are definitely a threat to the galaxy, but the personal reasons for going after them just aren’t there – instead the personal conflicts you have are directed at TIM and your old LI, and possibly the Council, all of whom cause conflicts for the character of Shepard – but none of the tension created by these conflicts is resolved by the end of the game, leaving me with the gamer equivalent of blue balls.  One could argue that this is being set up to be resolved in ME3, but I don’t think that’s the case – I feel that the ME1 cameos of your LIs (Wrex doesn’t count, as his is actually handled well) were thrown in as an afterthought, and in the end they serve to frustrate more than they serve to resolve anything, as there’s no opportunity to defuse the (unjustifiable, in my mind, but relationships don’t always work on logic) feelings of betrayal that Ash and Kaiden express, and the incident itself seems like an attempt to end the relationship despite what the player might want for their character.  I think it would have been handled better had there been more player choice involved in these scenes, but this lack of choice is part of an underlying problem with ME2 – Shepard him/herself is not shown to be much of a character over the course of the game.  The strong points of ME2 are in the characters and how they are shown to the player, but there is little chance to show Shepard, the main character, to the player.  While some might say this is an attempt to make Shepard more easily identified with by the player, I think that in the end it just draws focus away from Shepard and towards the other characters in the game.  I’m not saying they are bad people, but I believe that the writing team fell into the trap of putting more effort into the NPCs as they were ‘their’ characters, as opposed to Shepard, each particular instance of which is more a property of each player.


You say in the beginning of your post that you love Bioware, but then you do a 180 and question how they intend they are going to wrap up this trilogy? You lack of faith in Bioware is disturbing. Once again, can you elaborate on what choices you were deprived of, or what you would have said in that situation with Ash/Kaiden?

 


I’m not saying that ME2 is a bad game, per se.  What I think the fundamental failure of the game is that it fails to provide what I understand as an *rpg* experience. 


If you say so.


But for Mass Effect to live up to its promises, it needs to be a good rpg.


No, it just didn't live up to your personal expectations. 

 

No new teammates beyond what we have.  Going through the trouble of introducing new teammates to the fanbase at this point is going to detract from the plot, and anyone who can’t find a decent amount of the existing ones (collected from both the games) appealing and who demands more is being disingenuous.


Agreed. Your ME3 squad should be comprised of the surviving squad members from the 1st two games.   

 


A plot which doesn’t serve to box the player in.  In the first game, we had no motivation whatsoever to go work for Cerberus, whereas in the second game a very sizable portion of players would rather be working for someone else, or at least not serving Cerberus faithfully.  So why force it?


I thought this was handled pretty well in-game, as to why Shepard would want to work with Cerberus.

 

  
I hope I didn't come off as a d*ck cause I wasn't trying too.

Modifié par Canez fan 1988, 19 février 2010 - 01:05 .


#21
Canez fan 1988

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Terraneaux wrote...

Canez fan 1988 wrote...


Shep doesn't have any proof of the Lazarus project. The only proof is that space station in the beginning, and that was probably handled by Cerberus, either destroyed or wiped of any incriminating data considering what went on there. Veetor's data would have proven that the human colonies were being attacked, however the Council still would not have acted considering those colonies were in the Terminus systems. Sending fleets in there could trigger an all out war. I believe Horizon was the first colony attacked within Council space. Either way, that storyline would have been predictably bland and unoriginal considering that's the same formula used in ME1.


It's not necessarily true that the story would have been bland or unoriginal in that case; you could have been working for either the Council or Cerberus in ME2, since you only really contact them via that ansible hologram thing.  It could just as easily have been Keith David on the other end of the line as Martin Sheen.


The poster specifically said you would go back to work for the COUNCIL, not both. I was responding to that. Now if you had a choice to work for Cerberus or the Council, I'd still work for Cerberus but that's just me. Just going back to the Council would have been a rinse and repeat storyline in ME2.

#22
Akrylik

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The thing with this OP that sets him apart from the usual anti-ME2 users is that he has a brain that he used to type up valid issues allowing for constructive criticism hence intelligent game discussion, that alone gives him win.

Terraneaux wrote...
 

So I think a few things should be thought about going into
Mass Effect 3:

 

1)      Shepard needs to be given more attention, and his or her choices need to matter
more.  I’d like to see some more chances to express through action or words what’s going on inside Shepard’s head, and I’d like to see how the NPCs and the world around him react to that.  I feel in ME2 exactly the opposite was occurring. 

a major RPG standpoint for ME is that when you play as Shepard, you aren't just jumping in to some average RPG protagonist with both internal and external conflicts both irrelevant to the story, when you play Shepard, you are assuming direct control playing a character who has presumably long overcome his personal problems, allowing the player to get a feeling that they know exactly what's going on with shepard as if they were actually him/her, therefore "what's going on in Shepard's head" Bioware attempts and mostly succeeds at making it "what's also going in your head" as well. As for the things you wish could be done while playing as Shepard, well i tend to just live with what you get and choose the most similar choice, which doesn't bother me too much as i never expected Bioware to perfectly capture all of my reactions to a situation and allow me to effectively convey them through Shepard. For example I wanted to backhand Grunt for pummeling me in the cargo bay, but all i could really do is speak claims of my authority at him (while unoticingly pointing a gun in his chest, heh)
And Shepard's choices do matter, nuff said. But do they differ in effect very much? Not really, but that's in order to keep differing story posiblities in balance.

 

2)      No new teammates beyond what we have.  Going through the trouble of introducing new teammates to the fanbase at this point is going to detract from the plot, and anyone who can’t find a decent amount of the existing ones (collected from both the games) appealing and who demands more is being disingenuous.

i would completely agree to this if it weren't for the suicide mission, that's all i have to say on that issue.

 

3)      A plot which doesn’t serve to box the player in.  In the first game, we had no motivation whatsoever to go work for Cerberus, whereas in the second game a very sizable portion of players would rather be working for someone else, or at least not serving Cerberus faithfully.  So why force it?

I believe that the plot of ME2 serves a much bigger purpose than the first, originally the objective was to find and kill Saren for his attempts at iradicating humanity, which Shepard should take offense to due to the fact that he is human. Yet this segways into revealing the "true plot" of the ME series, reapers. In ME2 the fact that Shepard is working with Cerberus is irrelevant to the goal they share of  stopping colectors, and inevitably reapers. so regardless of Cerberus=evil, saving humans and killing bad guys=good despite collaborating with a company claiming a not-so-virtuous past.
besides, time and time again throughout the game you can deny loyalty to Cerberus and disobey TiM in the end, it's only forced in the sense that you would'nt be anywhere without them to start with.

 

#23
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DarkNova50 wrote...

Sofa - The - Great wrote...

I wouldint really call it working for Cerberus, more like working with them... shepard knows the reapers are a threat and cerberus is the only group willing to help. The council denies the reapers existance.


They didn't believe in them in ME1, either. But once you brought them evidence, they let you go out and fight the visible threat: Saren and the Geth. With Veetor's data, Shepard has proof of the Collectors, and how they're abducting Human colonies.

I still think it would have been perfectly plausible for Shepard to take the Normandy, tell Cerberus to screw off, get rid of any crew members not willing to fall in line, and go back to the Council and the Alliance. Tell them what happened with Project Lazarus, show them the proof. Suddenly you're back in their good graces, gather up the old team (and whatever new ones you choose to pick up) and there you go: ready to save the galaxy again.

Instead you get railroaded into serving the Illusive Man, who shows at several points throughout the game that he's perfectly comfortable with stabbing you in the back, if it serves his needs.

I think your choice at the end of ME1 was what detirmined if you supported cerberus.  If you destroy the base, you baisically tell The Illusive Man to screw himself

#24
Terraneaux

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Canez fan 1988 wrote...

ME1 was a great game. Right up until ME2 was released. Now I don't have the patience to sit through that mess. The cover system was not of questionable value, it was just downright horrible. Don't try and suger coat it. ME2 had plenty moments where I was on edge, and so did ME1. Both of those games succeeded in that department.


We basically agree on the ME1 cover system, but I feel that the story in ME2 just didn't grab me the way ME1 did.


Can you elaborate on this please? Give me an example in-game where Shepard said something that you would have said differently.


The conversations with Ash/Kaiden are the most glaring example, and there are a few conversations with Miranda where she 'convinces' you that Cerberus isn't all that bad, and the obvious rebuttal (Akuze, Kahoku) isn't available.

That's petty. There was no personal grudge between Shep and Saren, Saren just needed to be stopped because he was going to wipe out the galaxy.


Saren needed to be stopped the same way the Collectors needed to be stopped, yes, but Saren has also gone out of his way to make *your* life miserable.  The reaction I had towards Saren, which I think a lot of players had, was something along the lines of '**** that lying SOB, I'm going to hunt him down and bring him to justice/give his head to Wrex.'  I think that's part of what made Saren a good villain.  The Collectors, OTOH, don't really have much significant revealed about them until you get to the prothean connection, and that doesn't really reinforce a 'villain' relationship as much as just leave more questions unanswered.  And while they've done bad things, what they've done doesn't really hit home until they abduct your crew.  

You say in the beginning of your post that you love Bioware, but then you do a 180 and question how they intend they are going to wrap up this trilogy? You lack of faith in Bioware is disturbing. Once again, can you elaborate on what choices you were deprived of, or what you would have said in that situation with Ash/Kaiden


Well, the Kaiden/Ash encounter presents a problem (they're mad at you for working for Cerberus) and then leaves you with no choices to make to resolve the situation one way or another.  I think it's choices and decisions like this that would go a long way towards being able to flesh out Shepard as a character, one of the main complaints I have about this game being the lack of opportunities to do that.  As to your comment about my confidence in Bioware, it may ring a bit of bitterness, but the subtext that I got from what happened in ME2 was that the ME1 LIs had run their course, and it seemed to be setting up an excuse for why you could 'move on' in ME2, and I think a lot of characters expected that the relationships they *started* in ME1 were going to be able to continue throughout the trilogy.  What I'm saying about Bioware is that they have a great track record, but ME2 threw me for a bit of a loop in terms of what to expect.  Just because I like the company and their games doesn't mean I think they're omnicompetent.
 

No, it just didn't live up to your personal expectations.


Well, I like to think that my personal expectations have some value.  I mean, I am a customer.  



I thought this was handled pretty well in-game, as to why Shepard would want to work with Cerberus.


Well... I disagree.  It's definitely something that people have been making noise on the forums about, so I assume that you're familiar with the points of people like me who disagree, and have just come to different conclusions, so I won't go into that argument here.

 

  

I hope I didn't come off as a d*ck cause I wasn't trying too.


Mission accomplished.

#25
Terraneaux

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Akrylik wrote...

a major RPG standpoint for ME is that when you play as Shepard, you aren't just jumping in to some average RPG protagonist with both internal and external conflicts both irrelevant to the story, when you play Shepard, you are assuming direct control playing a character who has presumably long overcome his personal problems, allowing the player to get a feeling that they know exactly what's going on with shepard as if they were actually him/her, therefore "what's going on in Shepard's head" Bioware attempts and mostly succeeds at making it "what's also going in your head" as well. As for the things you wish could be done while playing as Shepard, well i tend to just live with what you get and choose the most similar choice, which doesn't bother me too much as i never expected Bioware to perfectly capture all of my reactions to a situation and allow me to effectively convey them through Shepard. For example I wanted to backhand Grunt for pummeling me in the cargo bay, but all i could really do is speak claims of my authority at him (while unoticingly pointing a gun in his chest, heh)
And Shepard's choices do matter, nuff said. But do they differ in effect very much? Not really, but that's in order to keep differing story posiblities in balance.


This is a point that I figured I was going to have to go into.  Let's take a game like, say, Morrowind.  For me, a wonderfully enjoyable RPG, but it occupies a place on the spectrum away from the stereotypical, say, jrpg, with its predetermined characters and fixed storyline.  In Morrowind, basically all the character development was implied by the player.  You definitely got to make a lot of choices based around what you thought your character was thinking, however, in choosing who to work for, which storylines to advance, etc.  Now, in Mass Effect, especially the second one, you don't get to see too much of what's going on inside your character, but I don't think that's due to it meant to be implied, since plenty of other characters in the game express their personality through their actions and words to a much higher degree.  You give the possible explanation that Shepard has all of their baggage squared away, and I guess that's possible - as much as I want my Shepard to be a hardened badass, though, I would like to see the character grow and change over the course of the series, as to me the 'implied character development' doesn't really cut it for a game that's halfway between the 'sandbox' and 'jrpg' camps (and in all honesty swings away from the sandbox a little more than that).  We've got the best voice actors in the business working on this game, great facial animations and character rendering, and it's more than a bit of a waste to not apply this to its fullest extent on the main character.  The main character really needs to be, well, round and not two-dimensional.  

 

i would completely agree to this if it weren't for the suicide mission, that's all i have to say on that issue.


Well, given that the default save for people who haven't imported a character into ME3 will have enough characters to mess around with, I don't think it's out of the question to have people who get their team wiped out in ME2 to have reduced options in ME3.  Things might get a little tight, however, and it wouldn't really make sense to have a sort of 'Biff' type character who fills in if you're missing people.

 

I believe that the plot of ME2 serves a much bigger purpose than the first, originally the objective was to find and kill Saren for his attempts at iradicating humanity, which Shepard should take offense to due to the fact that he is human. Yet this segways into revealing the "true plot" of the ME series, reapers. In ME2 the fact that Shepard is working with Cerberus is irrelevant to the goal they share of  stopping colectors, and inevitably reapers. so regardless of Cerberus=evil, saving humans and killing bad guys=good despite collaborating with a company claiming a not-so-virtuous past.
besides, time and time again throughout the game you can deny loyalty to Cerberus and disobey TiM in the end, it's only forced in the sense that you would'nt be anywhere without them to start with.


I suppose the thing that makes the forced loyalty to Cerberus leave a bad taste in my mouth is that other characters in the world talk about how horrible Cerberus is where you're left with nothing to say but 'yeah, so?' despite the fact that your character may have a horrible, horrible grudge against the organization.  While it would be a little extreme, the logical opportunity to get out from under Cerberus's thumb is actually at the end of the space station you wake up on, when Miranda says that she's taking the one shuttle to go see TIM, when you could hijack it and gtfo.  That was the first time I was like 'Really, Bioware?'

As far as your point that ME2 'serves a much bigger purpose than the first,' I disagree. It's been stated many times that the plot in ME2 doesn't really change much about the state of the galaxy.  The Reapers are still coming, the villains of the game haven't changed the landscape of the setting much.  And while it's true that Cerberus and Shepard are both interested, obviously, in not having all sentient life wiped out by the Reapers, Cerberus's willingness to attack other human interests in advancement of its own goals puts doubt on even their 'for the good of humanity' stance, and I'd consider it very reasonable to assume that Cerberus is not worth working with even on a matter this grave.  While, of course, they're seemingly the only group that believes you about the Reapers, there's the question of why exactly that is.  The Council's denial of the Reaper threat is, frankly, unrealistic, and while I believe the intent of that behavior on their part was to make Cerberus look like your only option, the fact that it was so out of character only made the strange beatific treatment of Cerberus in ME2 even more jarring.