201 réponses à ce sujet

[ItsFreakinJesus]

Lightice_av wrote...

You mean the one that was still early in development, the one that is called a LARVA? The one that a squad of three managed to take down with handheld weapons? What makes you think that it has been programmed with the ability to indoctrinate, especially since 1) it's still being developed and is very early on, and 2) there's no one around for it to indoctrinate?

Because it's so basic property of the Reapers that even a dead, cold, 37 million year old derelict still emits full power indoctrination. It's something that defines them. I don't think they could turn it off if they tried, and I think that even the smallest component of their body emits the same influence. Indoctrination is the Reapers and vice versa.

A 37 million year old Reaper that was fully complete had the ability to indoctrinate, not some 2 year old skeleton of a Reaper that didn't even have enough organic components or programming it to do anything more than pretend it was Goku and shoot Kamehameha's while Harbinger called in backup for it.

No way in hell it had the ability to indoctrinate.

Kahlmulandr wrote...

What i wondered is if my ship is the
only ship that can safely travel there because of the IFF why the hell
am i worried about what TIM is going to do with it.

They could easily copy the IFF data.

[ZennExile]

Because if we keep the collector base TIM can finish making a human reaper in private and blaim it on the collectors. That way he'll be able to finish it and pit his human reaper against the rest of the galaxy in an attempt to dominate the galaxy with a Cerberus Reaper leading the charge and Shepard at the wheel. (Completely indoctrinated to the Cerberus reaper of course).

Don't you guys pay attention to anything?

[Lightice_av]

No way in hell it had the ability to indoctrinate.

I'll be laughing hard and loud when the Illusive Man will get indoctrinated in Mass Effect 3. The foreshadowing is pretty blantant.

[Akrylik]

if there was an option to turn it in to the Alliance or Citadel instead of being forced to leave it to TiM, i would've done that instead of asplosion.

[Ramikadyc]

ZennExile wrote...

Because if we keep the collector base TIM can finish making a human reaper in private and blaim it on the collectors. That way he'll be able to finish it and pit his human reaper against the rest of the galaxy in an attempt to dominate the galaxy with a Cerberus Reaper leading the charge and Shepard at the wheel. (Completely indoctrinated to the Cerberus reaper of course).
Don't you guys pay attention to anything?

Reapers are more than just machines. Seeing as how they're living, sentient cybernetic organisms, TIM would have a hell of a time creating more than just a machine that mimicks a Reaper. "Hey guys, you think it's a good idea for me to add the ability for this Reaper to indoctrinate me? Yeah, me neither..."

[Lightice_av]

Reapers are more than just machines. Seeing as how they're living, sentient cybernetic organisms, TIM would have a hell of a time creating more than just a machine that mimicks a Reaper. "Hey guys, you think it's a good idea for me to add the ability for this Reaper to indoctrinate me? Yeah, me neither...

The Illusive Man doesn't understand the Reaper technology any better than anyone else, whatever he might think. He can copy existing designs maybe, but he won't know exactly what they mean. He doesn't know what causes the indoctrination or how. He assumes he doesn't have to worry about such details. He'll be badly mistaken, I'm willing to bet good money for it.

[Heimdall]

I would have saved it if I could have left it in the hands of almost anyone other than TIM. But I couldn't so bye bye Collector base!

[Ramikadyc]

Lightice_av wrote...

Reapers are more than just machines. Seeing as how they're living, sentient cybernetic organisms, TIM would have a hell of a time creating more than just a machine that mimicks a Reaper. "Hey guys, you think it's a good idea for me to add the ability for this Reaper to indoctrinate me? Yeah, me neither...

The Illusive Man doesn't understand the Reaper technology any better than anyone else, whatever he might think. He can copy existing designs maybe, but he won't know exactly what they mean. He doesn't know what causes the indoctrination or how. He assumes he doesn't have to worry about such details. He'll be badly mistaken, I'm willing to bet good money for it.

I don't know how to build a car but I do know that adding dynomite and instant mac n' cheese to the engine is a bad idea/doesn't make sense. The Illusive Man seems to be pretty intelligent, and even if he was directly copying designs I'm sure he'll pay attention to what his team is doing instead of foolishly taking a bigger risk than he already is, considering the tech and that particular project would be pretty important. That, of course, is even assuming he does what you're claiming he will. Which he might, or might not, I dunno, but I don't pretend to know what's going to happen, I just speculate with the information I'm given.

Modifié par Ramikadyc, 19 février 2010 - 02:15 .

[Deflagratio]

I actually think destroying the base is the better option. Why?

Organics in this generation of spacefaring civilization has only lasted so long because of our unpredictable nature. By using reaper tech, we are playing right into their hands. You see this already with Mass Relays. The Reapers place the technology of Element Zero and Mass Relays, and have every concievable counterattack in place for it. Dreadnought saturation does nothing to their barriers, they seemingly are the only things that can control the entire Relay network (And with it, all communication and transportation). Now think of how the Reapers are undone. The Keepers are a bio-engineered, but still Organic race that evolved in an unpredictable fashion. The Reapers were not ready for this, so began the risks that sovereign had to take in order to sieze control of the Citadel-Darkspace relay of Mass Effect 1. The Reapers never expected any civilization to have any reason to pass through the Omega-4 relay to the galactic core, small scout ships are destroyed immedietly, larger vessels (Likely with the plan to attack the collector base) likely hit the "Mass Drift" of the relays, winding up right in the supermassive black hole's maw. A single Frigate attacking the collector base is a "Suicide mission" something that machines could not concieve, thus they were entirely unpepared for a strike team, barely a dozen strong, to storm the stronghold at the galactic core. Again, organic life's unpredictability was our ace in the hole. Surrending that is practically signing over cilvilization to the cratered archives of the previous civiliations.

Keeping the base is too high a risk for likely no reward. While it's concievable to think you could find a weakness with access to the reaper creation process, knowing Cerberus' mentality, it's not unreasonable the "Defense" that comes out of this is simply a contingent of Reaper.

Of course, since it's obviously the biggest choice we see in Mass2, it's obligatory to have one game without, and one game with. So we'll see.

[GreasyMullet78]

Leigion gives us a good clue as to the dangers of getting tech that we do not understand.  The journy to gather the tech is just as important if not more important than the tech.

We know that there has been a huge cycle more times than we can comprehend that this has all happened and each time the reapers have won.  The Reapers want us to use their tech so they can LIMIT us.  I also believe the Pros might have been faced with a similar situation back in their day and siezed that ship in an attempt to take on the Reapers but much like the Mass Relays and Citadel it only would bend to the will of the Reapers and ultimatly was a major part of their undoing.

[st0icr4ven]

Explosions rock, giving TIM anything freely is for suckers

[Lightice_av]

I don't know how to build a car but I do know that adding dynomite and instant mac n' cheese to the engine is a bad idea/doesn't make sense.

Reaper isn't a car, and the Reaper technology is millions of years ahead of humanity. It's like giving nuke to a caveman, to paraphrase Mordin - with just enough instructions to set it off, but nothing else. I don't trust anyone with technology that's designed from ground up to be harmful to anyone but its original creators. It's a bit like trying to use the One Ring for good.



I'm all for developing ultra-advanced technology, and taking influence from those more advanced, but when dealing with entities like the Reapers you have to stay on your toes; everything and anything related to them is a trap, either subtle like the Mass Relays, or direct like the indoctrination. Either way, it's bad idea to rely on anything they've made to fight against them. It's like saying "hey you, why not help me kill you?" They know their technology forward and backward. They'll have ways to turn it against us, to be sure.

[Lightice_av]

Doublepost

Modifié par Lightice_av, 19 février 2010 - 02:20 .

[Marah_Fayne]

Call me way too practical - but it seems to me that ME3 will NOT have two massively different storylines: one where you have the Collector ship and handily kick the Reapers butts after 3 hours of gameplay; and one where you start with nothing, struggle all the way through, and fail totally because you didn't keep the ship. More likely, the decision will only affect a small part of the story.



I mean, really, people are talking like the Collector ship decision will make or break the battle in ME3 - that can't make any sense.

[Esker02]

I had two lines of reasoning that made me consider saving the base. They're both fairly obvious - the first is simply that it would be useful to understand the technology we're up against. Looking at how useful Sovereign's remains proved to be (Thanix cannon, anybody?), it's already established that the enemy is vulnerable to their own weaponry.



The second reason is out of a sense of loyalty or debt owed to the Illusive Man and Cerberus. He didn't just save your life, no, he GAVE you life. And a ship to go along with it, and the authority to manage it how you see fit, and the freedom to make your own decisions and get your own results. The base was actually the first time he asks you for anything in return, IMO, and it felt / feels like a jerk move every single time to cut him off and refuse him.

[Vaenier]

My prediction for ME3 and collector base:

Keeping the base gives you access to advanced ship upgrades and tactical data about how to stop them. But this stops the alliance and citadel fleets from helping you in the final battle. They are too blinded by hate to see the real threat. [See Ashley/Kaiden stupidity]

Destroying it brings you back to square one, but you do manage to get the citadel to listen to you eventually. So you get their fleets to help.



I still pick save the base because that gives you a better chance. Whats better, 5 handguns or a plasma cannon

[Ramikadyc]

I love this decision of the game. There's absolutely no right or wrong choice, and everyone can pick a side and defend it to the death. I've obviously proven that I'm for keeping it (which is what my official playthrough will be) but I'll definitely have a game where I destroyed it, too, and not just to see what happens; I can understand why people would destroy it. Basically it just boils down to what the bigger risk is, and which risk you're willing to take--and that, of course, is a decision unique to everyone.

Destroying the base:
Pros--You minimize the risk of current galactic races from possibly playing into the Reapers plans by using their own tech and watching it backfire. You also remove one more element that could serve the agenda of an organization who looks out for their own race above all else, causing chaos either before or after the Reaper invasion.
Cons--You lose all the incredibly advanced knowledge the base has to offer, knowledge which could turn the tide in the direct confrontation with the enemies of the galaxy. Current civilizations must use their current, self-developed tech to battle an enemy who has committed genocide on every civilization previous.

Keeping the base:
Pros--You learn much from the technology contained there, and you possibly develop significantly useful countermeasures to battle the sworn enemy of organic life. If you're a Cerberus-sympathizer or you're in favor of humanity having the upper-hand with the other races, you give humans a huge trump card. You can also use a bare minimum amount of evidence from the saved base to rally the Council races to prepare for the invasion.
Cons--That huge trump card could very well backfire, causing the destruction of current galactic society if the Reapers had the foresight to realize that, even though this tech was not freely given like the Mass Relays or the Citadel, people may still acquire that information, and that they should prepare accordingly to manipulate our uses of it.

The debate about whether to keep the base is gonna rage on until we see what happens in ME3, but I hope that maybe the upcoming book sheds more light on what we might gain or lose from it.

Modifié par Ramikadyc, 19 février 2010 - 02:32 .

[Lightice_av]

I still pick save the base because that gives you a better chance. Whats better, 5 handguns or a plasma cannon

Which gives the Illusive Man a smaller chance to make mess? You have no idea if he'll even share the stuff with you. He has other projects, and you just did your job, as far as he is concerned.

[DrunkenGoon]

What I did first was keep the technology because I thought like most of the people on here.. Using the tech against the Reapers would be a really strong weapon.. But after I did that I got a sick feeling after hearing TIM talk about human dominance.. Suddenly I got a flash of Grunt, Wrex, Garrus, Tali, Thane.. What about them?



I mean seriously it seems to me that TIM is like David Duke and Cerberus is the KKK. He has no intention on using the technology to help the other species.. He wants to lead humanity to the top to overpower all the other races.. I couldn't in good concious let that happen.. So I went back and blew it up..



Plus as somone said before in no way could this be a MASSIVE decision with two totally different games. I'm sure this will have as much an impact as saving the council in the first game did. Not much other than whispers on the Citadel.

[Vaenier]

Lightice_av wrote...

I still pick save the base because that gives you a better chance. Whats better, 5 handguns or a plasma cannon

Which gives the Illusive Man a smaller chance to make mess? You have no idea if he'll even share the stuff with you. He has other projects, and you just did your job, as far as he is concerned.

Good thing i am going to maintain direct oversight of what goes on there. MINE!

[Mr0TYuH]

I just want to point out that it isn't just direct contact with Reapers that causes indoctrination. In Mass Effect, a survey team on Trebin discovered a device that turned them into "machine cultists." The device had been moved off site before Shepard arrived. The MSV Cornucopia discovered an alien device that "brainwashed" the crew. As a result, they plotted a course directly to the heretics. They were turned into husks, and the device was removed. Cerberus sent "samples" to Chasca. The pathfinder team there was turned into husks. While dragon's teeth were found there, we don't know if they were solely responsible for the transformation. Also, in Mass Effect 2, on Aequitas, an alien device turned a group of miners into husks.



So, it isn't just direct contact with Reapers that results in indoctrination.

[Landline]

Study the base using mechs, they can't be indoctrinated.

[ItsFreakinJesus]

Vaenier wrote...

My prediction for ME3 and collector base:
Keeping the base gives you access to advanced ship upgrades and tactical data about how to stop them. But this stops the alliance and citadel fleets from helping you in the final battle. They are too blinded by hate to see the real threat. [See Ashley/Kaiden stupidity]
Destroying it brings you back to square one, but you do manage to get the citadel to listen to you eventually. So you get their fleets to help.

I still pick save the base because that gives you a better chance. Whats better, 5 handguns or a plasma cannon

I doubt it'll work like that.  At the most, it'll allow the galaxy to survive the attack without fleets being completely decimated.  Destroying the base would keep all defenders on equal footing, but in the end, militaries are practically destroyed. 

Pretty much, keeping the Collector base is like holding the Alliance back against Soverign to sacrifice the Council, and destroying the base is like sending the Alliance to save the Council.  In the end, you achieve victory either way, but one path leads to more destruction.

[GreasyMullet78]

I think there is way way more to TIM than we know. I have serious doubts that he is even human.



I am pretty set in my position on the pros vs cons of this but what interests me the most is how the decision will play out in ME3. Its got to be big enough to matter but not so big that it changes the entire game.

[Ramikadyc]

Mr0TYuH wrote...

I just want to point out that it isn't just direct contact with Reapers that causes indoctrination. In Mass Effect, a survey team on Trebin discovered a device that turned them into "machine cultists." The device had been moved off site before Shepard arrived. The MSV Cornucopia discovered an alien device that "brainwashed" the crew. As a result, they plotted a course directly to the heretics. They were turned into husks, and the device was removed. Cerberus sent "samples" to Chasca. The pathfinder team there was turned into husks. While dragon's teeth were found there, we don't know if they were solely responsible for the transformation. Also, in Mass Effect 2, on Aequitas, an alien device turned a group of miners into husks.

So, it isn't just direct contact with Reapers that results in indoctrination.

The survey team wasn't indoctrinated, they simply became a cult worshipping the technology they found and some crazy members turned the whole team to husks. Husks do not = indoctrination. And the MSV Cornucopia was captured by geth after the crew passed into the Perseus Veil. The geth then turned the crew into husks using the Dragon's Teeth and sent the ship back into Council space as a warning to all who enter their territory. Again, husks do not = indoctrination, especially since the geth forced it upon the crew like they did with other colonists after.