201 réponses à ce sujet

[Malanek]

JasonPogo wrote...

If you play the game then you should pick up on the trend that everything that has to do with Reapers leads to indoctrination.  Hell even the long dead Reaper corpse you go to turns all the Cerberus researchers into nut job indoctrinated fools.

So even if you set off a bomb to kill just the Collectors on the base Harbinger is still hardwired into it and will just end up turning anyone you send there into his pawns...  So again how would keeping the base around be a good idea??

Indoctrination is deadly, no question. However that is even more reason to keep the base. You desperately need to understand as much as can about it by the time the reapers arrive en-mass and maybe even use it against them. It needs to be studied under a controlled enviroment. The only thing bad about it is having to give it to Cerberus.

[Vaenier]

My way of doing it:

I would save the base. Then when talking to TIM, I would tell him its time to clean up his act, and he had the choice of either doing things right, or me taking him down. Either way, I would gain control of Cerberus (in hole or atleast oversight to TIMs actions) and use all its resources to study the collector base.

First thing is to determine if active indoctrination is in effect. If it is, figure out how to disable it.

My Goals for researching the base:

• Learn how Reapers are constructed, specificaly if thier design contains any exploitable weaknesses.
• Learn how their shielding functions and design weapons that completely bypass it. Possibly plasma or phasic based weapons.
• Learn how their weapons function and design stronger defences against them. Magnetic based shielding possibly.
• Study the Collector bodies and engineer new genetic and cybernetic enhancements for my soldiers.
• Study indoctrination and develope a shielding or jamming system to render it useless.

Post research goals:

• Use accuired research to build a Anti-Reaper Dreadnaught to stand as flagship against the coming invasion.
• Upgrade allies ships with anti reaper technologies.
• Construct additional Anti-reaper frigates.

With this, victory is very likely.

Post Reaper goals:

• Continue research on alternate technological paths including hyperspace travel, and handheld plasma based weapons.
• Replace council with compitant leaders.
• Give council seats to Geth, Rachni, Quarian, and Krogan.

I like to plan ahead ^.=.^

Modifié par Vaenier, 19 février 2010 - 02:59 .

[Lightice_av]

The survey team wasn't indoctrinated, they simply became a cult worshipping the technology they found and some crazy members turned the whole team to husks.

You really, really didn't pay attention, did you? Watch the video journals in the place next time. The people were starting to share each other's memories for crying out loud! You're either ignorant or in serious denial at this point.

[Computron2000]

There is really no right or wrong but we need to look at possible future scenerios and also put some speculation out

i) When Shepard dies and you don't blow up the base, Ceberus ships are shown moving towards the *visible* base. This means they have the IFF codes already. Also having ships on standby (and the wierd smile when TIM learns Shepard is dead) does not point to a person you would want to have advanced tech.

ii) Indoctrination we really have no clue if it is possible to happen. However, if it really occured, what would happen? Letting the enemy have a hidden strike force is not a good idea. Also logically Harbinger should not be so stupid as to have no further control over the base other than projecting a hologram of himself. But we are talking about Reapers so they really could be that stupid.

iii) Then about the hologram. How many of you would think TIM will accept a deal where humanity is saved by becoming a Reaper after Harbinger contacts him with the hologram? Possibly add a few intimidating details about the power of the Reaper fleet to make him feel that its hopeless to fight. Remember he's out to save humanity by all means necessary and if it means we all turn into goo, well thats just life.

iv) The collector ship does not stand up to the upgraded cannons of the normandy. This means their shield and armor tech is not that great. Perhaps their weapon tech is good but its unlikely to be much much more powerful than the upgraded cannons.

v) Why not forget about TIM and call the Alliance? If the Alliance does not call in the Council (or the other major race reps if Council is dead) as well, its is just asking for fear, suspicion even likely preemptive strikes by the other races (why wait until you're so much more powerful than them right?) when news leaks out.

vi) If we call in the council (or race reps) and the alliance, everything will be tied up in red tape as there will be debates on who gets access to the base, what happens to discoveries, how to prevent various races not announcing their discoveries, etc.

Overall, IMO, the base itself is likely not worth the danger, hassle and disunity it brings. The main treasure as someone pointed out is actually the derelict ships. This however is of limited use. The main problem is that technology moves following the Reaper's intentions. We are unlikely to find self learning bioarmor, warp engines, zero point reactors, etc from the debris. This is after we subtract those that are degraded to the point of being unable to be reverse engineered

Modifié par Computron2000, 19 février 2010 - 02:59 .

[Aesaar]

Doesn't seem to be that much there, tbh. At least not much with immediate applications. Particle beams? The Thanix cannon has proven itself to be a more powerful weapon (shreds the collector cruiser in two shots), and even without it, the SR2's Javelins allow it to destroy the ship anyway (it takes more damage, but it's still a single [advanced] frigate killing a cruiser).

The collector cruiser does seem more maneuverable than typical cruisers, and it does have sensors advanced enough to detect the Normandy in stealth mode, but I doubt the reapers will be using IES systems to sneak around the galaxy, so the sensors aren't immediately necessary. Studying indoctrination hasn't worked well yet, and I'm not willing to risk that base becoming another staging area for the reapers.

And why would the explosion destroy the debris field? The Normandy was clear of the blast before she reached the Omega 4's counterpart, and the debris field was pretty much next to it. Even with the base destroyed, there's still plenty of salvage.

Modifié par Aesaar, 19 février 2010 - 03:01 .

[Ramikadyc]

Lightice_av wrote...

The survey team wasn't indoctrinated, they simply became a cult worshipping the technology they found and some crazy members turned the whole team to husks.

You really, really didn't pay attention, did you? Watch the video journals in the place next time. The people were starting to share each other's memories for crying out loud! You're either ignorant or in serious denial at this point.

Apparently I'm not the one who wasn't paying attention, seeing as how we're talking about a side-quest that took place in Mass Effect 1.

[Mr0TYuH]

Ramikadyc wrote...

The survey team wasn't indoctrinated, they simply became a cult worshipping the technology they found and some crazy members turned the whole team to husks. Husks do not = indoctrination. And the MSV Cornucopia was captured by geth after the crew passed into the Perseus Veil. The geth then turned the crew into husks using the Dragon's Teeth and sent the ship back into Council space as a warning to all who enter their territory. Again, husks do not = indoctrination, especially since the geth forced it upon the crew like they did with other colonists after.

The survey team on Trebin built a shrine exactly like the ones the heretics were building to worship Nazara.  That indicates that their was something shaping their devotion in a familiar way.

The crew of the MSV Cornucopia only entered the Veil after they picked up the alien device and began to act erratically.  That indicates the alien device caused the decision to pass into the Perseus Veil.

So, I agree that husks do not equal indoctrination, however, erratic behavior that leads to people walking willingly into becoming husks does suggest indoctrination.

[Zulmoka531]

"The Reapers are the ones who created the mass relays and the Citadel, to ensure organic life develops according to the wishes of the Reapers."



From the mouth..vent..whatever the hell Sovereign had. Legion also has some dialogue on how the Geth sought advancement through Reaper tech and it ended poorly.



I'd rather take my chances with the allies Ive gathered throughout the game, either case scenario could end with Reapers kicking our asses. Id prefer to go down fighting in my own way.

Might make me a hypocrite for riding around in the Normandy though..considering a good chunk of it is made from Sovereign himself >.>

[Lightice_av]

Apparently I'm not the one who wasn't paying attention, seeing as how we're talking about a side-quest that took place in Mass Effect 1.

Been staying up too late it seems. But seeing how another survey team was huskified in ME2 by a Reaper indoctrination device (called that by the game itself) in a sidequest, I wouldn't still take your explanation at face value. Husks and indoctrination aren't synonyms, but indoctrinated people are clearly inclined to huskify themselves given a chance, and indoctrination can happen through devices instead of Reaper presence, as well.

[Ramikadyc]

Mr0TYuH wrote...

Ramikadyc wrote...

The survey team wasn't indoctrinated, they simply became a cult worshipping the technology they found and some crazy members turned the whole team to husks. Husks do not = indoctrination. And the MSV Cornucopia was captured by geth after the crew passed into the Perseus Veil. The geth then turned the crew into husks using the Dragon's Teeth and sent the ship back into Council space as a warning to all who enter their territory. Again, husks do not = indoctrination, especially since the geth forced it upon the crew like they did with other colonists after.

The survey team on Trebin built a shrine exactly like the ones the heretics were building to worship Nazara.  That indicates that their was something shaping their devotion in a familiar way.

The crew of the MSV Cornucopia only entered the Veil after they picked up the alien device and began to act erratically.  That indicates the alien device caused the decision to pass into the Perseus Veil.

So, I agree that husks do not equal indoctrination, however, erratic behavior that leads to people walking willingly into becoming husks does suggest indoctrination.

I can see where you're coming from, but it doesn't seem to be indoctrination to me. At that time no one was aware of the Reapers or their technology, especially random survey teams, and finding advanced technology like that somehow caused them to become mentally unstable. The artifacts recovered by the MSC Cornucopia, as it seemed to me, somehow gave them a new outlook (an unstable one) which caused them to head into the Perseus Veil for unknown reasons, and then the geth sent them back as a warning. I do agree that brainwashing took place, but since the teams studying the Collector base would be totally aware of Reapers and what's happening with them, I don't believe that anything other than direct Reaper indoctrination could brainwash them in any way.

[FOSTER FREEZE1212]

 EXPLOSIONS ARE KOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL!

[Ramikadyc]

Lightice_av wrote...

Apparently I'm not the one who wasn't paying attention, seeing as how we're talking about a side-quest that took place in Mass Effect 1.

Been staying up too late it seems. But seeing how another survey team was huskified in ME2 by a Reaper indoctrination device (called that by the game itself) in a sidequest, I wouldn't still take your explanation at face value. Husks and indoctrination aren't synonyms, but indoctrinated people are clearly inclined to huskify themselves given a chance, and indoctrination can happen through devices instead of Reaper presence, as well.

I forgive you, just please don't rage at me again, you hurt my feelings =(

On a serious note, I do believe that exposure to Reaper artifacts can drive people mad or brainwash them, but every single one one of those cases that's been documented (side quest and story wise), the victims were hapless schmucks who had no idea what they had found. It's feasible to assume that their incredible discovery caused them to have a total outlook change on their lives, and mixed with a little brainwashing material, drove them to cult/crazy status. Indoctrination as a weapon is what a physical Reaper wields, while indoctrination via brainwashing is a passive process without direct influence from a Reaper. The terms, to me, are separate, and thus I don't consider it indoctrination in the same sense.

Modifié par Ramikadyc, 19 février 2010 - 03:10 .

[Computron2000]

Ramikadyc wrote...
I do agree that brainwashing took place, but since the teams studying the Collector base would be totally aware of Reapers and what's happening with them, I don't believe that anything other than direct Reaper indoctrination could brainwash them in any way.

I would disagree. I don't find Saren to be particularly stupid. Even when he knew and tried to find shields or methods to prevent, it failed. Of course this is assuming there is indoctrination waiting to happen. Benezia with her long life and power also could not stand up to indoctrination. Both record cases points that it will fare just as or even more poorly with others even if the indoctrination was by an unconscious Reaper.

Modifié par Computron2000, 19 février 2010 - 03:09 .

[Dessad]

My first post, so trying to make it a decent one.



A few points



The Collectors are what is left of the Protheans, so the base and the relic shipwrecks will probably only date back less than 50,000 years, not millions.



The Reapers left behind the Mass Effect technology intentionally so that all the races would advance along a desired path, Collector technology looks like it is just a bit more advanced than the rest of the galaxy, so it would probably put Cerebus above the Alliance and the other races, but I seriously doubt it will be very effective against the Reapers.



Personally I think the Reapers just gave the Collectors only what they needed to perform their tasks and nothing more, the rest is what the Collectors came up with themselves.



It is not a good idea to give your best toys to minions.



I think the key may be to start heavy R&D away from Mass Effect science, maybe the reason the Reapers wanted everyone using it was because there was another science/tech path that they were aware of that could actually pose a threat. So they left behind all these nice, powerful and easily attainable gifts so that all the races would forget what they were doing before.



Sovereign was taken out by a fleet of warships firing nonstop in a long duration battle. The Normandy took out the Collector ship with two hits from the Thanix cannon, If the Collectors are on par with the Reapers then the simple answer would be to equip all warships with multiple Thanix cannon batteries... just sounds too easy.



Just my opinion, and I could be wrong, but destroying the base felt like the right choice, it just felt too easy and too tempting to save it.

[Vaenier]

Tinfoil hats stop indoctrination! if you dont have any, then wear a pot on your head. also cover the windows with soda can tops tied together to block out their signals.

[Ramikadyc]

Computron2000 wrote...

Ramikadyc wrote...
I do agree that brainwashing took place, but since the teams studying the Collector base would be totally aware of Reapers and what's happening with them, I don't believe that anything other than direct Reaper indoctrination could brainwash them in any way.

I would disagree. I don't find Saren to be particularly stupid. Even when he knew and tried to find shields or methods to prevent, it failed. Of course this is assuming there is indoctrination waiting to happen. Benezia with her long life and power also could not stand up to indoctrination. Both record cases points that it will fare just as or even more poorly with others even if the indoctrination was by an unconscious Reaper.

You're again assuming the larva has the power to indoctrinate. One could argue it does, but I believe that all information points to it lacking the ability to, at least in it's current state. Read my previous posts pertaining to this argument.

Saren and Benezia were not stupid, of course. But they were being directly influenced by a Reaper, which is what I've been saying.

[Computron2000]

Ramikadyc wrote...
You're again assuming the larva has the power to indoctrinate. One could argue it does, but I believe that all information points to it lacking the ability to, at least in it's current state. Read my previous posts pertaining to this argument.

Saren and Benezia were not stupid, of course. But they were being directly influenced by a Reaper, which is what I've been saying.

Actually i would feel its more likely the base itself would have hidden indoctrination structures or artifacts, perhaps able to activate remotely. EDI saying the super structure was a reaper, kind of points to the base having very close Reaper affliated links as in not just a place to build a Reaper but to become part of it. This is just guesswork, but still it would point it out as somewhat too dangerous to save for limited tech

[TOBY FLENDERSON]

Because some people are immoral sociopaths.

[Acero Azul]

Thornquist wrote...

Your indoctrination point is just speculation tough, and you cant deny the logic of the Illusive Man, even if you dont like the guy.

yes, but we also do not know the illusive man's motives or what he is actually planning to do

[Ramikadyc]

Computron2000 wrote...

Ramikadyc wrote...
You're again assuming the larva has the power to indoctrinate. One could argue it does, but I believe that all information points to it lacking the ability to, at least in it's current state. Read my previous posts pertaining to this argument.

Saren and Benezia were not stupid, of course. But they were being directly influenced by a Reaper, which is what I've been saying.

Actually i would feel its more likely the base itself would have hidden indoctrination structures or artifacts, perhaps able to activate remotely. EDI saying the super structure was a reaper, kind of points to the base having very close Reaper affliated links as in not just a place to build a Reaper but to become part of it. This is just guesswork, but still it would point it out as somewhat too dangerous to save for limited tech

I don't remember EDI saying that, maybe I missed it. I'm always playing through the game and I'm about to get the IFF on my current playthrough so I'll pay attention to it again. All I remember is her mentioning it was Reaper technology, which is obvious, not that the structure itself was a Reaper in design. I mentioned in a previous post about the Collectors being controlled through cybernetics and modfication, and how it was unlikely indoctrination would be used in the Collector base because of that fact--because it wasn't needed to control the Collectors, and no one was other than the Collectors were intended to every visit the base.

And your theories may be guesswork but so are mine, and so are everyone elses. Don't let that stop you from formulating more theories, because all we can do is speculate.

[AntiChri5]

The reason i blew up the base was because the Illusive Mans reasons for using it are exactly the same as Sarens reasons for using this massive alien dreadnought he discovered.

[Ramikadyc]

AntiChri5 wrote...

The reason i blew up the base was
because the Illusive Mans reasons for using it are exactly the same as
Sarens reasons for using this massive alien dreadnought he
discovered.

Saren was aiding the Reapers to prove the
organics could be useful and that some of us should be spared for
whatever reason. Kinda the complete opposite of what TIM wants to do, there...

[UnAffectedFiddle]

Mark my words, notice how the Reapers and even the main character have almost biblical/prophecy style names i.e. Sovereign, Harbinger and....Shepard?

Shepards already partially organic and artificial, I am damn well gonna be a new version of human put into a newly designed human Reaper vessel. Mark my words Harbinger, I am Shepard. Humanity comes forward to consume you!!

Come on, a giant new reaper born of a new galactic civilisation with a stand out name like Shepard sent forth to stop the Reapers. Mark my words, its coming!

Modifié par UnAffectedFiddle, 19 février 2010 - 03:36 .

[Chromie]

Shepard will end up like Saren just wait.

[Mr0TYuH]

It is a big assumption to assume there is a difference between "active" indoctrination done by Reapers and "passive" indoctrination done by devices. The derelict Reaper was dead. Nothing it did was active. The Cerberus team on board would have been well aware of the risk and still fell victim, just as Saren and Benezia did.

Mordin speculated that the Collectors were subjected to continuous indoctrination. That accounts for the need to continually replace systems with technology as indoctrination caused various organic systems to fail. Also, we know that Harbinger has a direct line to the base, so it is conceivable that Harbinger can apply some direct indoctrination.

Anyway, I never really meant to get involved in this debate. I'm still trying to talk myself into saving the base. I was merely responding to the statement early in the thread that only Reapers can indoctrinate. I am annoyed, though, that you can't ask the Illusive Man about it while making your decision. Your choices are "this place is grotesque and must be destroyed" or "the technology is necessary." I would have liked to have been able to ask about risks and heard the Illusive Man's take.

Modifié par Mr0TYuH, 19 février 2010 - 03:53 .