201 réponses à ce sujet

[Satanic Hamster]

For me, it was risk vs. reward.

I had serious doubts about our ability to hold the base.

_________________
Currently listening to Tapping the Vein's Another Day Down

[AntiChri5]

Ramikadyc wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...

The reason i blew up the base was
because the Illusive Mans reasons for using it are exactly the same as
Sarens reasons for using this massive alien dreadnought he
discovered.

Saren was aiding the Reapers to prove the
organics could be useful and that some of us should be spared for
whatever reason. Kinda the complete opposite of what TIM wants to do, there...

I mean his original motivation when he first finds sovereign.

Have you read the first book?

[Mr0TYuH]

Ramikadyc wrote...

[Saren was aiding the Reapers to prove the
organics could be useful and that some of us should be spared for
whatever reason. Kinda the complete opposite of what TIM wants to do, there...

I believe he is referring to Mass Effect: Revelation.  At the end of the book, Saren knew about a dreadnaught, which he believed was Prothean, which was unimagably powerful and capable of influencing the behavior of beings that came into contact with it.  He was planning, originally, to find a way to protect himself from its influence and use it to punish humanity and set the turians above the other races.  It was only after Saren learned the truth about the Protheans and Reapers (and became indoctrinated) that he decided it was better to survive as slaves than be destroyed.

[Ramikadyc]

Sorry, didn't know that. Read the book when it first came out, apparently I need to read it again.



But Saren had no idea what a Reaper was all about at first, right? About the fate of the Protheans and what his fate was going to be? When he learned that, he despaired and became a turncoat. Don't you think that, since TIM knows all this stuff, he could do it differently? I'm under no illusion that he wants to use the technology to advance humans, but he has to stop the Reapers first, right?

[Nightwriter]

It's not that I never saw the logical benefits of keeping the Collector base. I did. Everything that was pragmatic in me wanted to use what was there.



It's that by keeping it I knew I would be turning it over to TIM, a person who could not be trusted with such power and who I could not as a responsible person deliver it to in good conscience.

[Mr0TYuH]

Correct. Saren did not know about Reapers at first. We don't know when he learned the truth. Still, he did not directly interact with Nazara until he felt he was safe from its influence. He misjudged.  Although, Saren said that he used to think like Shepard.  That indicates his first reaction to learning about the Reapers was to fight, but he latter changed his mind to his submission decision, likely due to indoctrination.

One last thing to point out, and, I guess, this one supports keeping the base. Vigil said it sensed the "taint of indoctrination" on Saren. One thing that annoyed me was I wanted to say, "You can detect indoctrination by just scanning someone. Tell me how!" So it is possible to detect indoctrination, if you know how. If Cerberus can figure that out, it would make working on the Collector Base at least feasible.

Modifié par Mr0TYuH, 19 février 2010 - 04:33 .

[Canez fan 1988]

You can't use Reaper tech to beat the Reapers. Plain and simple.

[BlackFlameGhost]

I.... had a tough choice when it came to destroying it or keeping it (The collector base) The biggest problem I saw with keeping the base was aftermath plain and simple. TIM would go too far with the tech, and even if it wasn't TIM (He strikes me as a dark good guy, the kind of guy willing to do the dirty work for the greater good) It would of been Cerberus (his freaking Organization) that did the dirt. Think about it, TIM didn't know about the crap his own people were doing to Jack, and I'm willing to bet TIM didn't know about a lot of the other crap a lot of the branch facilities Cerberus was doing.



I respect TIM because he kept it all the way 100% He is and will always be out for humanity, nothing more nothing less, if that means squashing others to do it so be it. I respect that in him, but it doesn't mean I like it. So in the end, morally I destroyed the base, absolute power corrupts absolutely.



But as a gamer... I kept 2 saves, one with it blown to hell and another with it still intact =D

[Jake71887]

Canez fan 1988 wrote...

You can't use Reaper tech to beat the Reapers. Plain and simple.

And why not? Their weapons are ineffectual against them, their shields don't benefit us? Are you retarded? 

[Spazticus]

Canez fan 1988 wrote...

You can't use Reaper tech to beat the Reapers. Plain and simple.

I'm afraid there is a flaw in your logic, and it's not so simple. You should recall that the Mass Relays were shut down in the previous Reapings, so all the systems would be isolated from the others. Even if the Relays were to be shut down before the Reapers arrive, there would be no alternate way to organize and coordinate proper system defenses. So, I contend that there is middle ground, as the Thanix Cannon is a good example of reverse engineered tech. I still destroyed the base, but there's nothing to stop the Normandy from returning to comb that debris field.

[BlackFlameGhost]

I think he means that the Reapers could pull something out of their mechanical arses and turn their own tech in your ship on you.



The whole "We left the Mass Relays for you to find so you will evolve and grow along a path we determine." Or however Sovereign said it in ME1

[HalfBlindRat]

There is basicly 2 things to do and I can do either one and feel I did the right thing.

1) Destroy the base. Cerberus is ruthless and the technology is way too dangerous.

-Almost like playing it safe, like in a movie, you find something really powerfull, you see how it could help humankind, but decide that "we are not ready for this, or it is too dangerous" and destroy it. Basic human logic, if we do not understand something/someone we fear it/them, to feel safe we have to destroy it/them. Easier and often safer than trying to understand it. Same with geth and rachni, just presented different, a bit too black and white.

2) Keep the base, might ´find something usefull in it. Need all the help against reapers. Allready using collector/reaper tech on our ship. Seen it's dangerous, but very helpfull.

-Risky choice? Even if the technology is safe, can we trust Cerberus? And can Cerberus do anything usefull with the tech alone. Possibility of sharing with the allience or Council?

-Scientific curiosity, taking the risk to learn more. Made many great and feared inventions possible. Cannot destroy the base, too good change to learn more of reapers, risks must be taken to advance.



I found the end kinda dissapointing, after everyone though I had done the wrong thing. Legion, Jack, Garrus I understood, but c'mon Miranda aand Mordin? Ever since level 1 Miranda has loved Cerberus, and I never saw that change, but magicly in the end she thinks I should have destroyd it? And Mordin, how can you resist this? Dont think Grunt would care at all.

[smudboy]

Taken from Shamus:
www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/

1) Proof.
By this point you have now spent two whole games trying to convince the rest of the galaxy that the Reaper threat is real. One of the major reasons the battle is so desperate is because you’ve been working alone. Here is unambiguous proof of an advanced enemy with hostile intentions.
2) Memorial.
Keeping the facility is crucial for understanding who died here, and how. If nothing else, looking for bodies and dogtags to send home would have been worthwhile and offer some families a sense of closure.
3) Technology.
Yes, study the technology. Just because the Slurpee machine of evilness is horrible doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t understand how it works and why. Particularly when you’re in a war and the enemy has you outmatched in both numbers and tech. The idea that we shouldn’t understand a technology because it has been used in evil ways is a line of reasoning that borders on primitive superstition.
4) Intel.
How does the enemy communicate? What is their history? What are their plans? Up until now the Reapers have been a great big question mark, and this is our first chance to fill in some blanks by digging around in their computers and reading their mail.

Even if there was some unforeseen danger to keeping the station, we could blow it up anytime we want if it turned out to be a problem. This isn’t a decision that needs to be made on the battlefield.

Keeping the facility harms no innocent civilians or does anything else that might be considered cruel, mean, or even just rude. (Anyone left on the station will die either way.) There is no reason to blow this thing up. Doing so is the most idiotic and self-defeating decision you could possibly make. If studying the Collector base is evil, then what do we say about those Allied forces that captured Auschwitz instead of blowing it up? They had far less need to keep that place than Shepard & crew need the Collector base. (And the death toll was higher by almost an order of magnitude.)

If it’s so evil to give the Collector tech to Cerberus that doing so would “sacrifice the soul of our species”, then Cerberus is simply too evil to work with. If Shepard is going to walk away from the base saying “We’ll find some other way” without even having an alternate plan, then he should have said the same thing to Cerberus at the very start of the game. You can’t have it both ways.

Modifié par smudboy, 19 février 2010 - 04:40 .

[Nightwriter]

I knew I'd made the right decision in destroying the Collector base after I heard one line from the Illusive Man.

"We could've used that technology, Shepard! Against the Reapers and beyond!"

Ah... "and beyond". Hear that?

THAT'S why you don't give him the Collector base.

[Zulmoka531]

HalfBlindRat wrote...
 And Mordin, how can you resist this? .

Mordin would object to it based on what he said in a few of his conversations about the Salarians and the Krogan.
Something along the lines of limitations that are needed for proper evolution and giving advanced tech to something that isn't ready for it, is like giving a nuclear weapon to cave men.

[Ramikadyc]

Nightwriter wrote...

I knew I'd made the right decision in destroying the Collector base after I heard one line from the Illusive Man.

"We could've used that technology, Shepard! Against the Reapers and beyond!"

Ah... "and beyond". Hear that?

THAT'S why you don't give him the Collector base.

Hey, after the Reaper threat is gone, maybe Cerberus wanted to apply Reaper technology to microwaves so that we can heat up our Hot Pockets in one minute instead of two. YOU DON'T KNOW!

I think Cerberus will definitely use the new technology to advance their human-centric agenda, no doubt in my mind. But hey, at least we'll get to that point of the future instead of going dinosaur!

[Esker02]

Nightwriter wrote...

I knew I'd made the right decision in destroying the Collector base after I heard one line from the Illusive Man.

"We could've used that technology, Shepard! Against the Reapers and beyond!"

Ah... "and beyond". Hear that?

THAT'S why you don't give him the Collector base.

No offense, but you're totally missing the point - "Against the Reapers." It's easy to just assume there'll be some magical fully paragon alternative to combat the Reapers other than with the Collector base tech, but there's simply no such guarantee. There's also no guarantee you won't be able to convince the Illusive Man (who struck me as reasonable every step of the way) about the proper way to proceed with "and beyond."

I really can't wait for a Harrowmont-esque punishment for all of these impulsive blind idealists. Maybe the loss in strength of the fleet will result in Wrex being killed as his Krogan warship is destroyed, or perhaps Admiral Anderson - maybe both? You're very keen on pointing out the supposed strings that come attached with keeping the base, but don't pretend there can't be strings attached to choosing to destroy it just because it's convenient for you.

[Canez fan 1988]

Jake71887 wrote...

Canez fan 1988 wrote...

You can't use Reaper tech to beat the Reapers. Plain and simple.

And why not? Their weapons are ineffectual against them, their shields don't benefit us? Are you retarded? 

Are you retarded? Can you not come up with a constructive way to argue without name calling? Is this the 3rd grade?


Legion clearly says in-game, using Reaper technology to fight the Reapers is asinine. They have placed their technology throughout the galaxy so that we develop along a path they desire. The only way to break free of the Reapers is to break free of their dependence. Who do you think knows their technology better, the Reapers or us?

[Esker02]

Canez fan 1988 wrote...

Legion clearly says in-game, using Reaper technology to fight the Reapers is asinine. They have placed their technology throughout the galaxy so that we develop along a path they desire. The only way to break free of the Reapers is to break free of their dependence. Who do you think knows their technology better, the Reapers or us?

Thanix cannon (modeled after Sovereign's main gun) proved effective against the Collectors. Now - from here you can say one of two things. Admit your theory is flawed right away, or say that Collector tech is different from Reaper tech, and thus that's why it worked. If you say that, we're proceeding with the understanding the Collector base is Collector tech, not Reaper tech. Thus your argument doesn't apply.

Modifié par Esker02, 19 février 2010 - 05:04 .

[Canez fan 1988]

Spazticus wrote...

Canez fan 1988 wrote...

You can't use Reaper tech to beat the Reapers. Plain and simple.

I'm afraid there is a flaw in your logic, and it's not so simple. You should recall that the Mass Relays were shut down in the previous Reapings, so all the systems would be isolated from the others. Even if the Relays were to be shut down before the Reapers arrive, there would be no alternate way to organize and coordinate proper system defenses. So, I contend that there is middle ground, as the Thanix Cannon is a good example of reverse engineered tech. I still destroyed the base, but there's nothing to stop the Normandy from returning to comb that debris field.

They need to pick and choose which tech to use, not just grab anything that says Reaper tech. They don't understand their technology, so it would be foolish for them to try and obtain large amounts of potentially harmful tech. The Thanix Cannon is a good example of picking and choosing what tech would give them an advantage, plus they got that from a dead Reaper.  

[killersinc]

My idea is this and it is simple. If TIM thinks he can stop me then he is sorely mistaken! I have all his files( gave jack all the access she needs) and miranda and company to do some serious ass kicking if needed. Plus we have a freaking huge fleet coming our way. We need some firepower that can stop them. Also the whole indoctrinated thing is bit over stated. This thing is in the beginning stages and anything living would be wiped out by the internal blast thing that we laid down.

[Canez fan 1988]

Esker02 wrote...

Canez fan 1988 wrote...

Legion clearly says in-game, using Reaper technology to fight the Reapers is asinine. They have placed their technology throughout the galaxy so that we develop along a path they desire. The only way to break free of the Reapers is to break free of their dependence. Who do you think knows their technology better, the Reapers or us?

Thanix cannon (modeled after Sovereign's main gun) proved effective against the Collectors. Now - from here you can say one of two things. Admit your theory is flawed right away, or say that Collector tech is different from Reaper tech, and thus that's why it worked. If you say that, we're proceeding with the understanding the Collector base is Collector tech, not Reaper tech. Thus your argument doesn't apply.

I don't have to admit anything especially when I got the theory from IN-GAME. It's not something I pulled out of my ****. Reaper tech IS collector tech.

Reapers understand their tech better than we do = FACT. Later on down the road, dependence upon their technology may come back to get us because of that. It's a risk. I'm not arguing with you about the Thanix Cannon, I'm talking about Reaper tech in general.

[Esker02]

Canez fan 1988 wrote...

Reapers understand their tech better than we do = FACT. Later on down the road, dependence upon their technology may come back to get us because of that. It's a risk. I'm not arguing with you about the Thanix Cannon, I'm talking about Reaper tech in general.

Even if I accept your concerns, which I really don't completely (a ballistics expert who knows the exact science behind how a gun fires a projectile can be killed easily by somebody that knows only that "when I point and pull the trigger stuff dies"), you're still assuming the existence of alternatives. I'd love to hear about some of them. Particularly considering outside of Cerberus, they still don't even believe the Reapers are real, so I don't expect there's much frantic research being done - research that even were it happening, BTW, would only maybe yield results.

[Nightwriter]

Esker02 wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

I knew I'd made the right decision in destroying the Collector base after I heard one line from the Illusive Man.

"We could've used that technology, Shepard! Against the Reapers and beyond!"

Ah... "and beyond". Hear that?

THAT'S why you don't give him the Collector base.

No offense, but you're totally missing the point - "Against the Reapers." It's easy to just assume there'll be some magical fully paragon alternative to combat the Reapers other than with the Collector base tech, but there's simply no such guarantee. There's also no guarantee you won't be able to convince the Illusive Man (who struck me as reasonable every step of the way) about the proper way to proceed with "and beyond."

I really can't wait for a Harrowmont-esque punishment for all of these impulsive blind idealists. Maybe the loss in strength of the fleet will result in Wrex being killed as his Krogan warship is destroyed, or perhaps Admiral Anderson - maybe both? You're very keen on pointing out the supposed strings that come attached with keeping the base, but don't pretend there can't be strings attached to choosing to destroy it just because it's convenient for you.

I fear you are playing toward a pragmatism and a cleverness that this game will not offer you. If you are waiting for the game to punish the paragon decision you may want to arm yourself for disappointment. That doesn't strike me as something you should count on from Bioware.

They almost always give you a moral way to solve problems , because they are all about choices. There's never just one way to do something.

I have no logical arguments for this, and I could be perfectly wrong. This is just a feeling. I don't think it's likely they will force you into such a position.

The Illusive Man will abuse power wherever he finds it. If you keep the base, you will need to use the technology there to save the galaxy.

Then you will need to save the galaxy from the Illusive Man.