201 réponses à ce sujet

[PopDisaster]

I feel like the Reapers wouldn't give the Collectors anything more than they needed, thus making Collector tech less advanced than Reaper tech (which would also explain why the Thanix cannon worked against them). So saving the base will give you little advancement and like many have commented, could be exactly what the Reapers want so you develop along their paths.



Also, if we assume that Reaper tech is more advanced, well we already have a cache of knowledge collected from the dead Reaper where we got the IFF, therefore we already have info on tech that is more advanced than the Collector base anyways... I saw no need to keep it.



I don't think BW would make one choice be a deciding factor in "beating" the game or not. If we get some little dialogue about a "Harrowmont" ending after defeating the Reapers, it's no big deal really... the game is over, it virtually has no effect on the player.

[jasonontko]

Esker02 wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

I knew I'd made the right decision in destroying the Collector base after I heard one line from the Illusive Man.

"We could've used that technology, Shepard! Against the Reapers and beyond!"

Ah... "and beyond". Hear that?

THAT'S why you don't give him the Collector base.

No offense, but you're totally missing the point - "Against the Reapers." It's easy to just assume there'll be some magical fully paragon alternative to combat the Reapers other than with the Collector base tech, but there's simply no such guarantee. There's also no guarantee you won't be able to convince the Illusive Man (who struck me as reasonable every step of the way) about the proper way to proceed with "and beyond."

I really can't wait for a Harrowmont-esque punishment for all of these impulsive blind idealists. Maybe the loss in strength of the fleet will result in Wrex being killed as his Krogan warship is destroyed, or perhaps Admiral Anderson - maybe both? You're very keen on pointing out the supposed strings that come attached with keeping the base, but don't pretend there can't be strings attached to choosing to destroy it just because it's convenient for you.

amen brother

[Esker02]

PopDisaster wrote...

Also, if we assume that Reaper tech is more advanced, well we already have a cache of knowledge collected from the dead Reaper where we got the IFF, therefore we already have info on tech that is more advanced than the Collector base anyways... I saw no need to keep it.

Just my final thought on this matter - don't forget the Collector base isn't valuable for the tech in and of itself. It's also a very important resource in understanding HOW Reapers are constructed, and through that understanding should provide crucial insight into how to engineer weapons to destroy them. So no, it's not entirely like we're blindly using the technology against their creator, but also learning how it is created and what makes it tick. Think of it as being handed the schematics to a Reaper - I simply cannot imagine any argument that could downplay the usefulness of such a thing.

[jasonontko]

Nightwriter wrote...

Esker02 wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

I knew I'd made the right decision in destroying the Collector base after I heard one line from the Illusive Man.

"We could've used that technology, Shepard! Against the Reapers and beyond!"

Ah... "and beyond". Hear that?

THAT'S why you don't give him the Collector base.

No offense, but you're totally missing the point - "Against the Reapers." It's easy to just assume there'll be some magical fully paragon alternative to combat the Reapers other than with the Collector base tech, but there's simply no such guarantee. There's also no guarantee you won't be able to convince the Illusive Man (who struck me as reasonable every step of the way) about the proper way to proceed with "and beyond."

I really can't wait for a Harrowmont-esque punishment for all of these impulsive blind idealists. Maybe the loss in strength of the fleet will result in Wrex being killed as his Krogan warship is destroyed, or perhaps Admiral Anderson - maybe both? You're very keen on pointing out the supposed strings that come attached with keeping the base, but don't pretend there can't be strings attached to choosing to destroy it just because it's convenient for you.

I fear you are playing toward a pragmatism and a cleverness that this game will not offer you. If you are waiting for the game to punish the paragon decision you may want to arm yourself for disappointment. That doesn't strike me as something you should count on from Bioware.

They almost always give you a moral way to solve problems , because they are all about choices. There's never just one way to do something.

I have no logical arguments for this, and I could be perfectly wrong. This is just a feeling. I don't think it's likely they will force you into such a position.

The Illusive Man will abuse power wherever he finds it. If you keep the base, you will need to use the technology there to save the galaxy.

Then you will need to save the galaxy from the Illusive Man.

Your right they most likely will not punish paragone for anything even though their idelaism would be punished in real life.  Of course I always thought the point of having choices is that their are consequences to your decesions.  Game title "Mass Effects" is starting to be more like "Vacuum Fatalism"

[PopDisaster]

Esker02 wrote...

PopDisaster wrote...

Also, if we assume that Reaper tech is more advanced, well we already have a cache of knowledge collected from the dead Reaper where we got the IFF, therefore we already have info on tech that is more advanced than the Collector base anyways... I saw no need to keep it.

Just my final thought on this matter - don't forget the Collector base isn't valuable for the tech in and of itself. It's also a very important resource in understanding HOW Reapers are constructed, and through that understanding should provide crucial insight into how to engineer weapons to destroy them. So no, it's not entirely like we're blindly using the technology against their creator, but also learning how it is created and what makes it tick. Think of it as being handed the schematics to a Reaper - I simply cannot imagine any argument that could downplay the usefulness of such a thing.

I don't deny that it won't help. I did say if you save the base you'll probably have a little advancement over not saving it. And it does seem very useful to have a schematic of a Reaper. But the schematics you're getting would be experimental ones of the human/reaper larva and you would see how those are created, not the Reapers as they are now. So you gain a basic understanding about Reapers, but I don't feel it would be enough to find a specific weakness. I also felt like the Reaper threat was immenient, so even by saving the base, you might not have much time to research anything that could be useful... but we don't know if there will/won't be a time lapse like from 1 to 2.

All speculation though.

[Nightwriter]

If there had been an option to save the base and keep it for myself, I would have.



If there had been an option to save the base and give it to the Alliance, I would have.



If there had been an option to save the base and give it to the Council, I would have.



If there had been an option to save the base and give it to my space hamster, I would have.



But I could not give it to the Illusive Man. He can’t be trusted not to abuse that power. The consequences could be disastrous.

[Zulmoka531]

Nightwriter wrote...
If there had been an option to save the base and give it to my space hamster, I would have.
.

"Make way evil! I'm armed to the teeth and packing a hamster Reaper"

[Lucazius]

If you wish to create a Human Imperium across the galaxy, keeping the base is an excelent idea...



Because no other race would have such dangerous tech at heir hands as humans, and the consequences are very clear: the tensions between aliens and humans would increase to a very risky point.



But, if you believe in a Galactic Community, you should destroy it... However, if you killed the Rachni queen, destroyed the research of the genophage, inflamed the quarians to go to war against the geth... well, I think you should keep the base.

[z4t001]

i do not think tim would directly inflict harm upon galactic society with information/power gained. he is not foolish, cerberus is his brainchild, but it is not meant for galactic or even celestial domination. it is a covert organization.



his benefit to mankind idea is more than likely the ascension of the human race to where the asari are on a social ladder... the best. by far. f*** with us and you'll be sorry.



if tim attempted to use the reaper/collector tech within the base against the galaxy's greater good through fear, oppression, or by simple force, he would NOT be helping humankind -- he would be splitting it. people would stick with the Alliance, maybe some would join cerberus' position.



it would not be in his, cerberus', or further, mankinds interests to abuse the power given to them by the base. the longterm benefit of sharing the technology, or at least, some parts of it (id be down for that) with the other races in an effort to enhance the living conditions/what have you of the entire galaxy, would far overshadow any potential benefits from using power or force to conquer and dominate.

[pointtech86]

Nightwriter wrote...

If there had been an option to save the base and keep it for myself, I would have.

If there had been an option to save the base and give it to the Alliance, I would have.

If there had been an option to save the base and give it to the Council, I would have.

If there had been an option to save the base and give it to my space hamster, I would have.

But I could not give it to the Illusive Man. He can’t be trusted not to abuse that power. The consequences could be disastrous.

I want to ask everyone who thinks TIM is some evil, power-hungry madman.  When and where did you find the damning evidence that conclusively determines that he is what you say?  He BROUGHT YOU BACK TO LIFE, spending 2 billion credits, building you the absolute best ship ever built by council races, making YOU feel comfortable by signing on two of your former crew, and taking your advice on Tali and allowing you to recruit her, allowing you to activate a potentially hostile elite geth on HIS ship, allowing you to let Grunt, a 'pure' Krogan out of his tank, and you now feel like you can judge and condemn his very soul, morals, goals, and personality?  Without even meeting him face-to-face?

I'd be a little PO'd too, if after everything I've done to make you comfortable and able to trust me, I can't even get a single word in edge-wise on destroying potentially the greatest discovery in known galactic history.

And some people call US the immoral sociopaths lol.

[FROST4584]

Vaenier wrote...

Would you throw out the plans to the death star? How would you know its weak spot?
What selfish moron would throw out the one way in the galaxy to learn the Reapers' weakness...
You dont have to use it, just learn how to kill it.
And if you know about indoctrination, then take precautions. shifts, maximum exposure times. create shielding to stop indoctrination. Look, another way to help fight reapers from the collector base.

Agreed 100%

[Daralii]

Lucazius wrote...

If you wish to create a Human Imperium across the galaxy, keeping the base is an excelent idea...

It wouldn't even be a Human Imperium, it would be a Cerberus one. As the conversation goes,

Shepard: "Human dominance? Or Cerberus?"

TIM: "Cerberus is humanity!"

Maybe it's the naive paragon in me, but I honestly don't see the benefits of collector tech in Cerberus hands outweighing the risks.

[Ramikadyc]

I think the branches of story in ME3 from ME2 will be much more extreme than in ME2 from ME1. The third will be the final installment of this series, so the devs won't have to dedicate so much creative time to designing two separate campaigns that again lead into two (or more) unique campaigns in the following installment. The fact that the endings of ME2, as far as alliances and important choices are concerned, are so different lead me to believe this--either you keep a gigantic, technologically advanced alien base and further strengthen your alliance with Cerberus, or you destroy aforementioned base and go totally rogue from Cerberus. It's the last installment, so Bioware just has to go all out, surely, and not cop out from the imported major choices like they did in ME2 (brief encounters with love interests, one conversation with the Council, a few lines of dialogue from Anderson, and a few messages from thankful parties in ME1). There were a lot of opportunities to make each individuals' imported games that much more unique that weren't fully realized or were totally missed, but I take it in stride since most choices are addressed, even if just for a moment, and it does set the stage for ME3 to be even greater.



Mass Effect 2 is a gigantic build up to Mass Effect 3, and I'm willing to wager that it will have enough story content to fill up two titles, in such a way that playing through twice will feel like playing a game with two unique story lines set in alternate realities (so to speak). This Collector base thing is the linchpin for it.

[Nightwriter]

pointtech86 wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

If there had been an option to save the base and keep it for myself, I would have.

If there had been an option to save the base and give it to the Alliance, I would have.

If there had been an option to save the base and give it to the Council, I would have.

If there had been an option to save the base and give it to my space hamster, I would have.

But I could not give it to the Illusive Man. He can’t be trusted not to abuse that power. The consequences could be disastrous.

I want to ask everyone who thinks TIM is some evil, power-hungry madman.  When and where did you find the damning evidence that conclusively determines that he is what you say?  He BROUGHT YOU BACK TO LIFE, spending 2 billion credits, building you the absolute best ship ever built by council races, making YOU feel comfortable by signing on two of your former crew, and taking your advice on Tali and allowing you to recruit her, allowing you to activate a potentially hostile elite geth on HIS ship, allowing you to let Grunt, a 'pure' Krogan out of his tank, and you now feel like you can judge and condemn his very soul, morals, goals, and personality?  Without even meeting him face-to-face?

I'd be a little PO'd too, if after everything I've done to make you comfortable and able to trust me, I can't even get a single word in edge-wise on destroying potentially the greatest discovery in known galactic history.

And some people call US the immoral sociopaths lol.

Sounds like somebody has been judged by paragons before, hmm?
 
I look at his organization’s track record and see that it is corrupt. Can you really fault me for this? They hurt innocents and sacrifice lives in order to achieve their goals. I know this for a certainty. And I know that whenever they do something wrong, it is TIM who is orchestrating it. It is TIM who is responsible.
 
What TIM wants is power. I know this. Whatever his motives are now, this is his real, long-term goal, and I am just a stepping stone to that goal. He wants power, and he will do anything to achieve it.
 
I would never go so far as to say that I know enough about him to be certifiably sure that he is evil. Only that I know enough about him to be sure that I don’t trust him.

[Ultai]

I have a good feeling both choices will have good and bad consequences.

Modifié par Ultai, 19 février 2010 - 07:49 .

[Nightwriter]

Most likely.

[Ramikadyc]

Just posting here to admit I made a mistake in a previous post of this thread. I just did the sidequest in Mass Effect 2 yet again (Minos Wasteland>Fortis>Aequitis) where an excavation team discovered an artifact and were turned to husks, and that artifact is in fact a Reaper indoctrination device, confirmed by the debriefing report. My bad.

[Madecologist]

To answer you question, of the OP. 1) You giving it to TIM. It is not just that you are seizing it, but letting TIM free access to this stuff. So even if the base could be useful, having TIM and Cerberus controlling it a good idea. 2) I think everyone on your Crew thinks it is a bad idea. Every single one of them (atleast on all my playthroughs). Unlike the Council dilemna where people are like "debating" it. The Collector Base gets a full "don't like this.. bad idea..." from everyone.

[OfTheFaintSmile]

There are no reapers left in the base to do any indoctrinating to begin with,



so your assumption doesn't float!

[OfTheFaintSmile]

The gist of it is that Paragon sheps are gathering allies for the final assault while renegade sheps follow a more ethnocentric human-dominated attack. It's what ME2 was building up for

[Madecologist]

OfTheFaintSmile wrote...

The gist of it is that Paragon sheps are gathering allies for the final assault while renegade sheps follow a more ethnocentric human-dominated attack. It's what ME2 was building up for

Yeah, same thing with ME1. Paragon Shepards will have an army of a united Galaxy, Renegade Shepards will have mankind rise to the top and probably even take over.
A stronger Union than the Citadel ever was, or the dawn of the Human Empire.

[trigger2kill1]

You should not keep the collecter base for the same reason that Ginen telles Riker to throw out the book when he had to fight Locutus in that episode of STNG. To keep "the book" is like signing over the battle without even trying. If you beat the Reapers in ME3 then it is because you took the long hard muddy low road not the quick and easy high one.

I have played para most of the way with the exception of the Council I let them go down. I thought that it was a simple logistical question (ya could bite me in the ass) didn't think that we could save them and kill Sovereign. Hit him high, hard, and fast.

Modifié par trigger2kill1, 19 février 2010 - 09:28 .

[T0paze]

Because the whole choice is idiotic.



Shepard should've been given a chance keep the base for the Alliance or the Council (depending on his preferences). Instead, he's given two options: either destroy the base, which is absurd, or give it to Cerberus, i.e. to ruthless terrorists.

[Madecologist]

T0paze wrote...

Because the whole choice is idiotic.

Shepard should've been given a chance keep the base for the Alliance or the Council (depending on his preferences). Instead, he's given two options: either destroy the base, which is absurd, or give it to Cerberus, i.e. to ruthless terrorists.

I agree he should have leeway who he could give the base too, "I am telling Anderson."

But... how is destroying it absurd. Perhaps the only tech the base has is the ability to scan biological organism, pulp them to bare material, make Reaper Larva, and stay in orbit around a black hole. Not sure if anything here would be useful in a war. Unless you plan to pulp people to make your own Reaper...

People should stop assuming the Reapers are gonna have their drones walking around with their full Tech. Like if there is a folder on the Collector Base titled "How to beat us" and "Our weakpoint" or give you the blueprints to build Mass Relays and full data schematics of Citadel. Why? Why would they even have that there. If the Reapers are just 1% as intelligent as they think they are, they wouldn't and have planned for the possiblity the base gets comprimised.

Example: Capture an enemy's tank does not suddenly give you the insight on their military command, access codes to the defense computers, and the blueprint on how to build planes and nukes. Capturing a missile base will not tell you how to make said missiles. You will just have a bunch of missiles at your advantage. Sure you can retro-engineer that missiles but it is not gonna give you much on their aviaonics. This idea that the enemy's base is full of goodies is not always the case.

TIM wants it because he is willing to take that chance. Why ditch it, plus I am sure he doesn't care if he can pulp some poor random race and make his own Reaper. Actually perhaps that is why he wants it. Judging from Cerberus past, they may very well pulp humans too. Cerberus is about humanity, not the individual human.

[T0paze]

Well, there's one way to find out. Maybe there's indeed no particularly useful information about the Reapers inside that base. But maybe there is. By destroying the base Shepard loses any chance to find out, and that makes this choice stupid.

Besides, even if there's no information that would directly help Shepard in his fight against the Reapers, there's still a lot on that base. If you remember, the Collectors have always traded technology for genetic specimens, and their technology was always superior, even though it was something they wanted to trade (and, since it's unlikely that they would be eager to part with their most advanced technology, the things they offered were probably just a pale shadow of the real gems). So, there should be lots of useful info on that base. Destroying it is dumb, and is only better than the second option because it's arguably better to be just a fool than to be a fool used by someone as ruthless as the Illusive Man.

Modifié par T0paze, 19 février 2010 - 10:18 .