201 réponses à ce sujet

[adam_grif]

JasonPogo wrote...

If you play the game then you should pick up on the trend that everything that has to do with Reapers leads to indoctrination.  Hell even the long dead Reaper corpse you go to turns all the Cerberus researchers into nut job indoctrinated fools.

So even if you set off a bomb to kill just the Collectors on the base Harbinger is still hardwired into it and will just end up turning anyone you send there into his pawns...  So again how would keeping the base around be a good idea??

Collectors =/= reapers. The Citadel and Mass relays are all reaper tech, but aren't indoctrinating anything. The keepers are working directly for the reapers, but they don't indoctrinate people.

It is a huge leap in logic to assume that the Collector base is loaded with indoctrination tech, and even if it is, precautions can be taken to prevent indoctrination, as well as to recognize it if it is occuring and then deal with the indoctrinated people.

If it turns out to be indoctrinating people, we can always blow it up later. But if we blow it up now, we don't get the opportunity to lift tech from it, tech which could come in handly blowing up the reapers.

Really, you'd have to be crazy to pass up the opportunity if this was real life. The only reason blowing it up is a viable option is because we as gamers know that Bioware isn't going to screw people for taking the Paragon route.

[D4rk50ul808]

Kahlmulandr wrote...

What i wondered is if my ship is the only ship that can safely travel there because of the IFF why the hell am i worried about what TIM is going to do with it.

For all the people looking for huge plot holes and bad story telling, this takes first prize IMO.  I never even thought about that until I read this.  How did Cerberus get there with no IFF's available.

[T0paze]

They made copies, I assume.

[Gabey5]

so tim can build a soverign

[adam_grif]

If collectors = reapers, then why does the only starship they have get killed by the wussy, non-upgraded frigate mass drivers?



Don't answer that, it was rhetorical. It's because they don't have all the tech the reapers do, and instead are relying mostly on pre-existing prothean technology with some enhancements and additions from the reapers.

why weren't precautions taken to prevent indoctrination on the derelict reaper?

Gee, because it was dead? Did you not see the scientists walking around without hardsuits or any kind of protection on the Reaper? They had no reason to think that a destroyed reaper would still have the indoctrination operational.



How about, as a first step, they just try wearing freakin' earmuffs or something. And if that doesn't work, hardsuits. And if that doesn't work, remote piloted mechs using telepresense while the science crew sits all snug and cosy four thousand kilometers away from the collector base.

[Massadonious1]

Eh, I see it more as the Soviets or Allies taking over Auschwitz. Regardless of the experiments or the insight it might have provided to quell Hitler, leaving something like that operational is a injustice against mankind.



Personally, I would like to know who Cerberus' backers are. One has to wonder if they are bothered (and why they're not) that so many humans are being sacrificed for the benefit of humanity. Letting humans purposefully get indocrinated aboard the derelict reaper seems to trump anything else they've done so far.

[Skilled Seeker]

I'm glad to see many people support keeping the base. When the game came out I felt like I was the only person in favour of keeping it with everyone else being self righteous cowards.

[adam_grif]

That analogy would only be valid if Auschwitz was home to technology that was orders of magnitude greater than what the allies possessed, and there were thousands of Auschwitzes positioning to strike continental USA.

The allies can and did take over numerous **** and Japanese research facilities and used their research. Some of the **** scientists who did human experimentation and killed people got a free pass from the United States because they transferred their work to the Allies after capture. One of them was still publishing science papers until 1991 when he died.


EDIT:

Hahaha, they censor the non phonetic spelling of Nah-tsee.

scyphozoa wrote...

Why would Reapers give the Collectors
more tech than they need? Collectors had enough tech to go untouched
for centuries. I don't think collectors have enough will or brain power
to revolt against Reapers. I think reapers know that the collectors
never needed dreadnaught quality ships because they were never going to
be threatened. Also they are a tool and are viewed as disposable. So
they got the bare minimum to meet their required tasks and functions.

I
don't know if anywhere in ME1 or ME2 it says or implies the ship and
tech collectors own is Prothean. My guess is no way, Protheans did not
have the tech to inhabit the galactic core and that is specifically
tech from the Reapers.

Right, so if the Collector base was isolated and nobody was ever supposed to get there, why would they have active indoctrination technology installed in their base? Who was it supposed to indoctrinate, exactly? The people who were already indoctrinated and or their slaves? Random space debris? 

Being related to the reapers does not imply indoctrination.

Modifié par adam_grif, 19 février 2010 - 10:56 .

[D4rk50ul808]

scyphozoa wrote...

why weren't precautions taken to prevent indoctrination on the derelict reaper? lets be clear, you cannot stand toe-to-toe with reaper technology. and Collectors ARE reaper tech. there is no difference between Reaper or collector, so don't say collector tech is different. Everything collectors have is the will of the reapers. so collectors DO = reapers.

the idea that a base designed to control thousands (millions?) of indoctrinated collector slaves doesn't have the capacity or tech to continue to indoctrinate organics would be naive imo.

So Cerberus has something that will somehow stop indoctrination, an occurance that no one can even explain?  I'm pretty sure if Saren and Benezia an asari matriarch couldn't resist it, scientists weren't going to either.  Its much more likely that TiM knew the risk and was completely willing to sacrifice his team.

Collectors are repurposed organic lifeforms like the Keepers.  Is it implied anywhere that they are cybernetic, I missed that part.  Why would the Reapers give their power to an enslaved race, as far as I know the only powers the Collector 's have is that of Harbinger who is actually being controlled by a Reaper.

[adam_grif]

Exactly, there are no such things as "precautions against indoctrination.' if there were, why didn't cerberus use them on the reaper? the excuse that "its dead and we believe we're safe" is as naive as you can get when discussing Evil machine gods.

Since the proposed precautions are hearing protection (since it's infrasound and subliminal), hardsuits or telepresense, and none of these things went on as displayed in the video, the conclusion we can reach is that they didn't take them. Why? Either they didn't think it was going to happen due to it being dead, or TiM knew it would but just didn't care.

[Massadonious1]

That analogy would only be valid if Auschwitz was home to technology that was orders of magnitude greater than what the allies possessed, and there were thousands of Auschwitzes positioning to strike continental USA.

I never meant it as a direct comparison or that Auschwitz had any viable intelligence worth saving to begin with. But if it did, well, you can see where I'm going with this.



And, there was definetly more than 1 concentration camp out there.

Gee, because it was dead? Did you not see the scientists walking around without hardsuits or any kind of protection on the Reaper? They had no reason to think that a destroyed reaper would still have the indoctrination operational.

I don't buy this, because even Zhu's Hope colonists retained some side effects from being under control from the Thorian, and, if I remember correctly, it was up there in the tens of thousands age range itself, if not older.



Who's to say that even the hardest of hardsuits would of had any effect? The aura may have just been that strong. Dead or not, Cerberus had to have known that place was dangerous. We don't even get to the Reaper part of the ship, and there is already a couple of diaries about people losing their minds.

[AntiChri5]

I think that this decision will play out in ME 3 as:



Base destroyed = intergalactic sh*tfight with high casualities but we win in the end and start rebuilding.



Base saved = less casualties in the war but Cerberus manipulations lead to rising racial tensions that erupt in a race war pretty much as soon as we win, which means all those saved from the reapers in this scenario are killed by the way they were saved.

[adam_grif]

I don't buy this, because even Zhu's Hope colonists retained some side effects from being under control from the Thorian, and, if I remember correctly, it was up there in the tens of thousands age range itself, if not older.

None of that is relevant unless the Thorian was:

- Using the same method of control (which it's not)
- Was found floating around a star with a huge hole in both sides, having been killed and floating dead for 37 million years.

Obviously they weren't taking any kind of precautions, because they weren't wearing anything and they were just chilling inside it for weeks. Why? Stupidity? I guess so. But you can't say "precautions don't work because they didn't take any". It's doesn't follow. There is insufficient evidence to argue that case.

Who's to say that even the hardest of hardsuits would of had any
effect? The aura may have just been that strong. Dead or not, Cerberus
had to have known that place was dangerous. We don't even get to the
Reaper part of the ship, and there is already a couple of diaries about
people losing their minds.

Maybe they should have tested it? They're a science team, and a cerberus one at that. Do you think Cerberus would have qualms testing the indoctrination on aliens to find countermeasures before going aboard? But they didn't, and instead they apparently just sent the highly trained science team aboard. They didn't even swap out science teams on a daily or bi-daily basis, or even remove some of the tech and study it off site without directly exposing anybody to it.

But hey, they didn't do any of that. They didn't even test precautions apparently. They just sent the science team aboard to study it, then acted surprised when it went missing. Which is exactly what would happen if they didn't think the indoctrination was active.

And the "aura"? Do you know what sound is? The codex states that indoctrination works by infrasound and subliminal messaging. This is to say, that if you put a layer of vacuum between you and it, it can't get to you. Even if it operates on other levels (not mentioned in the codex), you can find out which ones they are and try to get a working countermeasure up and running.

I see this so much on these boards. Everybody just saying "well its reaper tech, you can't hope to find a countermeasure!" This is a non-argument, because it has no substance.

"Reaper tech is advanced, therefore it is unstoppable". Leap in logic, no support.

Modifié par adam_grif, 19 février 2010 - 11:19 .

[T0paze]

Correct.

There are three options here. 1. The science team was composed of idiots; 2. They didn't believe the Reaper still had the indoctrination ability; 3. They were unaware of/didn't really believe in indoctrination in the first place. The first one seems unlikely, so it's either the second or the third.

Modifié par T0paze, 19 février 2010 - 11:26 .

[Allattar1]

See I did leave the base for TIM.



But I instantly changed my mind after the decision. As evidence I would like to present every Cerberus project that we have experienced in the game.



The experiments on Kraw worms...

The base full of husks (Was that cerberus?)

The experiments that produced Jack.

The bases full of Rachni in energy cages.

The indoctrinated scientists in the dead reaper.



Even the base where they brought Shepard back, the robots their are programmed by a traitor and shoot the base up.



Cerberus does not as far as I can tell have a very good past history of dubious research. At least the Normandy SR-2 seems to work



You just know its all going to go wrong on that collector base... But worst off its a mission in ME3 and therefore more xp for me... right?

[Urazz]

The base has super strong mass effect fields and radiation shielding the base has to prevent it from being crushed by the black holes and stuff there.

But then you gotta consider that it's Cerberus that gets the base and they don't have the best track record on experimenting with stuff without it blowing up in the face of the rest of the galaxy.  Or even consider what kind of man the Illusive man is and how he will use the base.  He does admit it's for human dominance along with defeating the reapers.

Modifié par Urazz, 19 février 2010 - 11:46 .

[trigger2kill1]

Skilled Seeker wrote...

I'm glad to see many people support keeping the base. When the game came out I felt like I was the only person in favour of keeping it with everyone else being self righteous cowards.

On the other hand wouldn't it be fun to see that all who did save the base get indoctrinated/blow themselves to hell and back and have to play through 200 hours of games to succeed?!?

That being said our best weapon is the fact that even while we are headed down a similiar road we are HUMAN and being Human we tend to do things a bit different. That is why the reapers are studying us. Our best weapon is our difference. We are unique, they fear us because of that. We don't just follow the line, we stretch it, we squiggle it, we skew it whatever.
Bottom line we are not gonna beat them by using any more of there tech to dangerous (if possible at all). All Reaper tech that is not associated with the Protheans making it (weather that is correct or not), the future races in question give them credit for its creation, will indoctrinate or husk us. They have shown us that much at least, that is a proven fact. We have followed the Prothean path. Everything else we have used is at least twice removed. Or dumbed down then twice removed. With the exception of small cases, being the thanix canon tech, and the cyber warfare programs. Those inandof themselves might prove to hard to control.

[tonnactus]

Its really naive to believe that other races would understand the reaper tech as good as the reapers theirself do in such a short time. Its the false way that only consume time and money.Just improve the thanix cannons...

Modifié par tonnactus, 19 février 2010 - 11:54 .

[trigger2kill1]

D4rk50ul808 wrote...

scyphozoa wrote...

why weren't precautions taken to prevent indoctrination on the derelict reaper? lets be clear, you cannot stand toe-to-toe with reaper technology. and Collectors ARE reaper tech. there is no difference between Reaper or collector, so don't say collector tech is different. Everything collectors have is the will of the reapers. so collectors DO = reapers.

the idea that a base designed to control thousands (millions?) of indoctrinated collector slaves doesn't have the capacity or tech to continue to indoctrinate organics would be naive imo.

So Cerberus has something that will somehow stop indoctrination, an occurance that no one can even explain?  I'm pretty sure if Saren and Benezia an asari matriarch couldn't resist it, scientists weren't going to either.  Its much more likely that TiM knew the risk and was completely willing to sacrifice his team.

Collectors are repurposed organic lifeforms like the Keepers.  Is it implied anywhere that they are cybernetic, I missed that part.  Why would the Reapers give their power to an enslaved race, as far as I know the only powers the Collector 's have is that of Harbinger who is actually being controlled by a Reaper.

Come to think of it...I think that 2 of the books are dealing with this too. The one comming out is gonna finish the story (part 2). Doesn't the back cover say something about Timmy changing that Red sand taking Cerberus agent so he can do blah blah words and stuff to somebody for something or other? I don't know what will happen but will tie into the games anywho. Agreed?
From wiki...The Illusive Man, leader of the pro-human paramilitary organization Cerberus, is attempting to learn more about the Reapers, an advanced race of sentinent machines that periodically purges the galaxy of all organic civilizations. Having obtained Reaper technology, the Illusive Man decides to implant a human with it to learn more about the Reapers. Paul Grayson, a major character in Mass Effect: Ascension and former Cerberus operative, is kidnapped to become the Illusive Man's test subject.

Modifié par trigger2kill1, 19 février 2010 - 12:17 .