16 réponses à ce sujet

[CybAnt1]

 I just don't get the basic AI of this game. Forget the tactics slots per se - I'm just talking about whether you choose "Defensive" or "Aggressive" posture, for your warriors. ("Cautious" seems to be close to pointless.) 

"Ranged" seems to work fine for your archers, and mages. For the most part. 

"Aggressive" mostly works as billed, they attack all hostiles in sight, esp. when paired with "Scrapper". Other than that they charge stupidly through traps, charge enemies with 8 allies around them and die, but anyway it does what it says. 

It's the "Defensive--Defender" setting I really don't get. When I set Oghren, Shale, Dog, Alistair, or Sten to "Defensive" their behavior is very strange. I thought as a "Tank-Defender" they would

#1, attack anybody who's attacking me the PC and draw off their aggro with threaten etc. where needed - but they almost never do
#2, if I'm not under attack, attack anybody else who needs to be defended, like say my other archers or mages in the party
#3, and this is what really boggles my mind, defend themselves! 

Yet when I have these chars set to "Defensive," sometimes they will just sit there & scratch their nuts while I'm being attacked, while Leilana (as my archer) or Morrigan is being attacked, and most bizarre of all, while they themselves are being attacked! 

I ended up putting most of my warriors on Aggressive posture despite its drawbacks (see above), because I found while leaving them in Defensive, they weren't very good at defending me, the other party members, or fracking hell, themselves ?!? 

I found myself yelling at the screen constantly while Alistair was in "Defensive". "Hit back the guy who's hitting you, ******!" "Ummm, can you pull this spider off me, please?" "Do you mind not just sitting there scratching your nuts while something is gnawing off Leilana's leg?" "Thanks..." 

AFAICT, the Defensive AI on this game is just broken. Will the Advanced Tactics mod fix this? I might just have to try it out for Awakening, unless the expansion also revamps game mechanics-AI. 

[Wicked 702]

CybAnt1 wrote...

 I just don't get the basic AI of this game. Forget the tactics slots per se

Um.......no. You just answered ALL that crap you posted with that statement right there.

Go find the Dragon Age Wikia online and search tactics. All the "defense", "aggressive", "ranged", etc. does is control the overall tendencies of your characters. In other words, aggressive will charge into anything, defensive will run from AoE spells, and ranged won't pull out melee weapons if the enemy gets close range.

You NEED to specifically set up your tactics (customize) if you want a character to defend another character, target the target of a character, etc.

[CybAnt1]

OK but I'm usually choosing the "Defender" setting in conjunction with "Defensive". (I mean the two sorta go together, no?)



Defensive reads as follows on the Wiki:



Defensive Tries to stay close to player. Keeps away from enemy. Does not chase enemy. Fights back in melee; does not chase enemy. Flees harmful AoE. Will not attack without player direction or customized tactics.



Ummm, OK, so that explains everything except, BTW, them not fighting back in melee against people attacking them. And like I said, they sometimes didn't even do THAT.



So again here's the 2nd part of the mystery. I see where you're right, that the "Defensive" behavior by itself would not lead them to peel enemies off my PC, nor protect others.



But why then is nothing in the "Defender" script doing that either?



OK. Yes, I am an idiot. I'm looking at the Defender script and it says all this.



condition action

any Threaten

any Shield Wall

any Indomitable

surrounded Taunt

ranged attack Shield Cover

any Rally

surrounded Warcry

enemy hp >= 75% Pommel Strike

enemy hp >= 75% Overpower

enemy hp >= 75% Shield Bash

enemy hp >= 75% Frightening Appearance

enemy hp < 50% Devour

surrounded Two Handed Sweep

mage Holy Smite

melee target Sunder Armor

nearest visible Assault

nearest visible Shield Pummel

nearest visible Critical Strike

target armoured Sunder Armor

nearest visible Mighty Blow



Which is great -- but apparently means that without customization, two behaviors I would expect from a *defender*, to peel enemies off me, and peel enemies off others needing protection, aren't present.



OK I *have* to specify those conditions myself. I mean, that's fine - crap if I didn't get this on my 1st or 2nd playthrough - I mean call me crazy for figuring that a defensive defender might do this without me having to specify it specifically in their script.



I guess I gotta set, myself, "PC being attacked: attack attacker of PC, taunt & threaten attacker" and "ally being attacked ... likewise". I guess where I was just a fool was in thinking that behavior like that might already exist within the "Defensive" stance/setting, even without being explicitly stated in the "Defender" script.



I'm just saying: this is what most people expect a Defender/Tank to do ... am I crazy for thinking it might be somewhere within the defaults? I guess I was.

[CybAnt1]

I guess I just find it kinda weird that to avoid micromanaging my characters, I in turn have to micromanage my tactics. I was mostly sticking to the default scripts and now I understand what's going on. It just amazes me, then, what's not in the default behavior, that you really HAVE to customize your script just to get your characters to behave in ways you would expect to be kinda "default".

I'm glad I think I finally understand this. Guess I'll at least finally figure out how to implement defender tactics properly for Awakenings. Just in time. 

The reason I didn't get this is I never had to touch scrapper-aggressive; it just didn't occur to me that defender-defensive would have to be customized. At least to work in the way that makes sense to me. 

Modifié par CybAnt1, 19 février 2010 - 03:12 .

[CybAnt1]

OK sorry to revive this thread but I'm back with another question, now that I'm mucking with Tactics to get them to actually work.

Seems easy enough to get my defensive tank to protect me/main PC (condition: Enemy attacking Hero --> Attack)

But I want him to also protect the mages and archers of the party but not everybody.

My point is, I don't want to use condition: Enemy attacking Ally ... because it's pointless, I don't need the defender protecting other tanks, they don't need his help. Just the vulnerable. 

However, I only see the option to protect specific characters in the party, by name, if they're being attacked. 

Is there no condition, say, for example, where I can specific condition: Enemy attacking Party Mage --> Attack, instead of having to have two script tactics saying the same thing for Morrigan & for Wynne? Or Enemy attacking Party Archer --> Attack, which would result in protecting whoever's doing ranged duty at the moment? 

I'm gonna guess the answer is no -- is it in Advanced Tactics? 

[inkaholicj]

As far as I can tell, you have to specify by name who you want your defensive tank to protect. I use all custom tactics and none of the presets. But I enjoy micro-managing my characters.

[CybAnt1]

Still seems like I'm going to run into the problem I see -- with 12 tactics slots, it's going to be hard to get my tank to protect everyone I want him to protect, *and* use all the abilities I want him to use in doing so, plus remember to use healing/buffing where warranted.

Ah well. We'll try.

The other thing I don't like about the tactics system is apparently you can script tactics for summons but they're not saved. Meaning this: you summon a wolf in the current battle, and set its tactics, and then send it off. 

It disappears when you go to the next area. You get in another battle. You summon a wolf again. You have to set THAT wolf's tactics all over again to be the same. 

This is where I can see micromanaging tactics getting tedious. 

Modifié par CybAnt1, 20 février 2010 - 02:37 .

[JosieJ]

Number 1, you're being too literal. Warriors should be set to Aggressive, Archers and Mages to Ranged. Melee Rogues seem to do OK on the Default setting. Most of the other behavioral settings (in the vanilla game, that is) are not worth it.



Number 2, for the kind of precision in tactics allocation that you're talking about, you really should just get the Advanced Tactics mod.

[VaeVictus X]

If you dislike the AI so much, why not actually control your characters yourself? I played through the whole game (on Normal) using tactics only for potion control, and sometimes I would even disable that. If you want the AI to make decisions for you, you have to realize that comes with limitations. But even if you use tactics heavily, like I plan to try on my next playthrough, you can always pause and give your own orders at any point in time, so it shouldn't be too much of an issue. Maybe I just don't understand...

[CybAnt1]

VaeVictus X wrote...

If you dislike the AI so much, why not actually control your characters yourself?  

Because ...

1) in too many encounters, I realize, why bother? For most skirmishes with wolves or deepstalkers, leaving everybody on AI and letting me focus on my PC works just fine. 
2) in the encounters where I do micromanage, I find that as I'm focusing on micromanaging one character, and doing the sequence of stuff I want him to do (esp. a mage or rogue), the others are getting munched on and not doing a thing. Be really great if I could load his action queue with a sequence of stuff and make sure everybody gets attention. 

What I've basically found is what you've said is basically right: leaving most warriors & dueling rogues on scrapper-aggressive is usually just fine (although I've found some warriors use a lot more of their abilities if you choose defensive-aggressive). Then customize your mage to meet the mage scripts, leave your archer on archer-ranged, and let those do their thing, and that usually works more or less out. 

It's just that on my first playthrough, when my PC was a mage, and I wanted two warriors, one to charge the enemy all aggressive, and the other to be my defender (and defend my archer-rogue), that I found my defender tank wasn't.... defending. The defender AI was keeping the character close to my own PC ... instead of charging remote enemies .... it just wasn't .... defending (which is fine, but just meant I was constantly making sure to order him directly to fight and not just sit there). But now I get why.

Whatever. It's all working out. I think I get the tactics system. 

I still think the AI in this game, as with all others to date, still needs improvement. 

There should be a wide choice of default scripts that approximate more player "strategery". With customization available but not so much a necessity. 





 

[VaeVictus X]

Ah, I see. But when it comes to micromanaging, it sounds like you're still controlling one character at a time. When you pause you can give all your characters an order, unpause and let the orders carry out, then pause and issue everyone an order again. You can basicly play the game turn-based, which allows great control over all of the combat. You don't need to control one character while letting the others "get munched on."

[guytza]

Cybant1: I really hate to say it this bluntly....but in regards to tactics, you're doing it wrong. The "Aggressive" "Defender" options are primarily only there to give movement responses to stimuli.

As was stated, set your tanks to aggressive, I usually set any melee types to this also. Occasionally mages as well.

For archery types, go with ranged, usually moves them relatively appropriately.

Mages are a bit of a toss up, but defensive will cause them to run around in very strange ways the moment you start switching your controlled character. The default is usually a good idea as you dont want them to start up their fireballs right away for agro concerns. Feel free to play around until you find what works, whats the worst that can happen?



For the tactics themselves, design a tactic for each active or sustained ability (you dont have to keep them, just make them and write them down someplace for posterity if you dont have the room)

For a tank for instance....

Self: Health <25% :: Use Healing potion most powerful

Self: being attack by melee attacks:: Activate shield defense

Enemy: attacking ally - Morrigan :: Use Ability Taunt

Enemy: Nearest visible :: Use Ability: Shield Pummel



Mages will be the most tactic slot heavy of all your classes as an FYI.

Alot of the primal friendly fire spells are very dangerous to have on any tactic, thats one of the reasons I stopped using the entire tree. Entropy and blood magic have great control without the risk of blowing your team up, but an early blood wound will often lead to a very dead mage when the spell breaks.

so....basic tactics for a generic mage.

Self: Health < 50% :: use least powerful health poultice

Self: Mana < 25% :: Use most/least powerful lyirum potion (your choice)

ally: health <50% :: use Ability: heal

Enemy: nearest visible :: use ability winter's grasp

Enemy: Using magic attacks :: use ability paralyze

Enemy using ranged attacks :: use ability force field

Enemy: Clustered: with 3 of its allies :: use ability sleep



I personally use the advanced tactics mod and my own tweak which starts me off with 20tactic slots at level 1 so some of the options I listed may be off from the core game. However having all those options from the start has taught me how to do some pretty cool things such as using jump tactics to help conserve mana or stamina for important abilities. The Presets that come with the characters such as scrapper are ok to start with, but its a little like having training wheels on your bike.

[CybAnt1]

Ah, I see. But when it comes to micromanaging, it sounds like you're still controlling one character at a time. When you pause you can give all your characters an order, unpause and let the orders carry out, then pause and issue everyone an order again. You can basicly play the game turn-based, which allows great control over all of the combat. You don't need to control one character while letting the others "get munched on."

Yes except I hate turn-based, even when I'm forcing myself to play like turn-based in a non turn based game. I feel like the spacebar-pause key goes into tap-itis playing that way. Here's the truth. Like I said before I want an action queue. 

Let me "load" Zevran/my rogue with a series of actions: stealth, apply poison, move behind mage, backstab mage. Let him go & do his thing! 

Then I "load" my mage with the sequence of grease-fireball, vulnerability-blast, whatever chain of spells I want them to unleash. 

Then I "load" my archer with a sequence of actions: hit the chargers with pinning shot, hit the mage with the arrow of andraste, then start firing on all the enemy archers. 

The warriors can mostly be left to do their thing with AI... as I've generally found. If only I had gotten that defensive mostly sets how they move, not how they fight. 

And then after loading all their action queues, I focus on "playing" my mainchar-PC. Hit the spacebar & unpause, let them go and do their thing, I micromanage mine. That's what I'd like. 

After they've exhausted the queue of things I wanted them to do initially, then they can all revert to basic AI. 

[CybAnt1]

Cybant1: I really hate to say it this bluntly....but in regards to tactics, you're doing it wrong. The "Aggressive" "Defender" options are primarily only there to give movement responses to stimuli.

No I got that. I mean I get that I wasn't getting it. It just seems to me that calling a setting "defensive-defender" means there's something in there telling the char to defend you & others. I now know that's not there. 

As was stated, set your tanks to aggressive, 

That usually works out fine, about the only part I don't like is they won't use common sense, they'll charge through traps (even after being warned they're there), and charge enemies surrounded by 8 allies alone. Other than that, well, yes, while on aggressive, they will methodically hunt down whatever's standing, although they don't always seem to prioritize well (again, unless, you micro-select targets for them in their script). 

I personally use the advanced tactics mod and my own tweak which starts me off with 20tactic slots at level 1

So you can get more than 12 slots with advanced tactics ... what's your own tweak? 

The Presets that come with the characters such as scrapper are ok to start with, but its a little like having training wheels on your bike.

Again, I think it's great they have a system that lets people set up their own, I just think they should have a greater variety of presets, with some better established defaults, I mean it really surprises me that "Defensive" doesn't have the preset "Enemy Attacking Hero/PC/Mainchar --> Attack Enemy". 

And the bottom line is it's great if you set up your offensive mage to focus on control, damage, or debilitation, it's just the presets start wearing then when you want them to do a mixture of all three. 

Also, again, as I said, unless there's a mod to give Shale more than 5 tactics slots (I never could), I think s/he is way too limited by the AI. Her abilities are awesome, I'd love to see an AI for him/her/it that lets it cycle through them all. 

[JosieJ]

Again I say: get the Advanced Tactics mod.  

What you want is to take a game that was designed as turn-based (and party-based) and expect the game not to act like a turn-based game.  I get that you don't like turn-based games, and that's cool: to each their own, right?  But you're expecting the developers to facilitate your playing the game in a manner that they did not design it to be played.  I think that's a bit much to ask of them. 

Fortunately, the game is designed with enough leeway that you can make it act like a non-turn-based game if you get the Advanced Tactics mod.  That provides the precision in tactics that will allow you to basically put your companions on auto-play and focus on your main character.  (And no, I'm not getting paid for suggesting it!  )

[guytza]

So you can get more than 12 slots with advanced tactics ... what's your own tweak?

I modified the exptable.gda file to give 20 slots and then dropped the new version into the core\\override folder. There should be guides out there if you want to give it a try.


And no, I dont get paid for hawking the Advanced Tactics mod either, the mod expands and (imo) improves the tactics of characters greatly by giving you alot more options. For someone like me who doesn't like to micromanage its a god-send. The new version even makes rogue characters attempt to move into backstab positions on its own, that feature I love. Without a doubt the one mod I would hate to live without.

[CybAnt1]

BTW, I have looked at the advanced tactics AI and it looks rather sweet.



I've tried a lot of the other mods - really should try that one. Has a check to see if NPCs are unconscious/dead (yay), has a tactic for telling rogues to backstab (yay), tells rogues to auto-disarm traps after finding them ... this is all great stuff that should be in the game already!



Query: anybody know of a mod ... or just a way to tweak ... the AI for Shale? Because Shale & Dog have no skills, ergo no combat tactics, they get only five tactics slots. I've found this isn't a problem for Dog, who mostly cycles between three abilities.



But it's really irritating for Shale. Is there a way I can get twelve slots for Shale, just like everybody else?