97 réponses à ce sujet

[mousestalker]

If you believe the Chantry's version of the story.

[Reaverwind]

bythebarricades wrote...

Wasn't it mages who entered the Golden City and corrupted it, becoming the first Darkspawn? I think the Chantry has a point in wanting to keep all these mages hidden away. Personally, I think they should have a more liberal policy about executing mages.

Sure, and let's condemn mages everywhere for the actions of the Tevinter magus, never mind that some have different magical traditions that would  never have resulted in what happened to the Golden City, assuming you believe the current version of the Chant of Light.

I've no problem with going after mages who abuse their power, but to imprison all from childhood is just plain wrong. Forcing templars on a lyrium diet is equally wrong. What the Chantry needs is a Martin Luther.

Modifié par Reaverwind, 20 février 2010 - 01:39 .

[Maria Caliban]

mousestalker wrote...

If you believe the Chantry's version of the story.

"I can feel the corruption starting to take its toll on my body. I must not succumb. There is too much work to be done. Through my magic I've been able to slow its inevitable spread, but not stop it completely. I am starting to hear things, even while awake: A voice--more beautiful than any other--that calls to me from the depths. In my dreams, I see the Black City, and I am drawn towards it. There is something there, an answer to what this taint is, this taint that we share with the darkspawn..."

--From the notes of Avernus.

http://dragonage.wik...Avernus's_Notes

I think there's more to it than just what the Chantry says, but I think they're right about the Black City, the darkspawn, and the magisters being connected.

[Maferath]

The Chantry's version isn't very coherent when you think about it. Tevinter mages wanted to steal the power of a god they didn't even believe in?



We don't know what the Golden City really was, nor even what the old Magisters thought it was exactly. On top of this, as far as we know none of the elven legends even mention it... the same elves who were all-knowing about the Fade, or the Beyond as they called it.

[Maria Caliban]

Maferath wrote...

On top of this, as far as we know none of the elven legends even mention it... the same elves who were all-knowing about the Fade, or the Beyond as they called it.

I'd say there are two problems here.

1. Elven legends are as spotty as swiss at this point. The Firsts and Keepers can't even read ancient elven and only know a handful of spoken words and songs.

2. We're not given nearly as much information about dwarven and elven thoughts on the darkspawn, the fade, the nature of life, the universe, and everything as we are about the Maker and Andreste. Do we even have the elven creation myths? Do we know what the elves think of spirits and demons? All I remember about the Beyond in their legends is that two of the gods help elven souls when they die.

[Reaverwind]

Maferath wrote...

The Chantry's version isn't very coherent when you think about it. Tevinter mages wanted to steal the power of a god they didn't even believe in?

We don't know what the Golden City really was, nor even what the old Magisters thought it was exactly. On top of this, as far as we know none of the elven legends even mention it... the same elves who were all-knowing about the Fade, or the Beyond as they called it.

However, the elves have lost a lot of their history, so that's not really saying much. It's also not surprising the Chant isn't coherent, given that it's undergone several revisions.

[Highdragonslayer]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Highdragonslayer wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

And as a sidenote, the Chantry has, so far, been more of a positive force rather than a negative one (althought its potential to be negative and regressive is very high and probably inevitable). But from what I have seen in Origins, the Chantry is more positive than negative, despite all this "bride of the maker" nonsense.

Backstabbing your elven allies and dooming many men to darkspawn isn't what i'd call positive.

Backstabbing?
By the time of the exalted march against the elves, they were no longer allies.

As for the darkspawn. The blame goes to everyone. Ferelden is a ****ed up coutnry. But to suggest that it's solely the chantry's fault is just purely self serving. From all the actors involved, the chantry has the least blame really.

Try to look at it from an impartial and objective point of view.  
  

The reason why the Tevinter Imperium was defeated by Andraste and her barbarians is because of the blight.

Also with the recent one the mages could have made it a lot easier for Teryn Loghain to call the attack and maybe would have if it didn't take so long to do.


On the elves also they at least deserve respect for helping their chantry flourish, but nope they don't believe in their god so they get conquered and assimilated as second class citizens, trust me Chantry does a lot more bad than good in this game.

Modifié par Highdragonslayer, 20 février 2010 - 01:48 .

[Helios969]

errant_knight wrote...

Well, that's a little like proposing to abolish evangelical christianity in the American south, Catholicism in Ireland, or Islam in Saudi Arabia. It's not going to happen.

Yes, let's do that.  I'm against anything that blatantly attempts to subjugate freewill and forces people to live according to someone else's moral code.  What they did to the elves was despicable - an obvious parallel to the Crusades of the Middle Ages.  The way the Mages are forced to live is also abhorrent.  The discussion with Greagoir about the situation and him talking about "The Right of Annulment" caused me to think about Hitler's "Final Solution."  And the hunting down Mages like animals is just plain wrong.

In short, I would love a major expansion that offered a character to chose between two warring factions.  I think the Elves, Dwarves, Mages, and say a certain percentage of like-minded Fereldan's could more than stand up to the Chantry and their allies.

[Maria Caliban]

Helios969 wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Well, that's a little like proposing to abolish evangelical christianity in the American south, Catholicism in Ireland, or Islam in Saudi Arabia. It's not going to happen.

Yes, let's do that.  I'm against anything that blatantly attempts to subjugate freewill and forces people to live according to someone else's moral code.

Given that the majority of humans in Thedas believe in the Maker and are part of the Chantry, trying to abolish the Chantry is a 'blatant attempt to subjugate freewill and force people to live according to someone else's moral code' on a massive scale.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 20 février 2010 - 02:07 .

[Helios969]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Helios969 wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Well, that's a little like proposing to abolish evangelical christianity in the American south, Catholicism in Ireland, or Islam in Saudi Arabia. It's not going to happen.

Yes, let's do that.  I'm against anything that blatantly attempts to subjugate freewill and forces people to live according to someone else's moral code.

Given that the majority of humans in Thedas believe in the Maker and are part of the Chantry, trying to abolish the Chantry is a 'blatant attempt to subjugate freewill and force people to live according to someone else's moral code' on a massive scale.

Yet they wish to do the same to those that do not.  So that makes them right?  Under my system, the people could believe whatever they wished.  The Chantry could remain, but with reduced power and held accountable for the attrocities they commit.

As one approached the resolution of such a story it would be good to be presented with the option of allowing them to remain or hunting them down and destroying them as they did to the Mages that wished to be free of them.  We know what the Chantry would do in the opposite situation.

[Reaverwind]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Helios969 wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Well, that's a little like proposing to abolish evangelical christianity in the American south, Catholicism in Ireland, or Islam in Saudi Arabia. It's not going to happen.

Yes, let's do that.  I'm against anything that blatantly attempts to subjugate freewill and forces people to live according to someone else's moral code.

Given that the majority of humans in Thedas believe in the Maker and are part of the Chantry, trying to abolish the Chantry is a 'blatant attempt to subjugate freewill and force people to live according to someone else's moral code' on a massive scale.

"Gving them a taste of their own medicine" has never sounded so appealing, lol. But really, the only ones I'd attempt to forcibly recant/convert are the Chantry priests. The templars aren't given much of a choice in following the party line, and the rest of the believers are simply misguided.

[mousestalker]

Helios969 wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Well, that's a little like proposing to abolish evangelical christianity in the American south, Catholicism in Ireland, or Islam in Saudi Arabia. It's not going to happen.

Yes, let's do that.  I'm against anything that blatantly attempts to subjugate freewill and forces people to live according to someone else's moral code.  What they did to the elves was despicable - an obvious parallel to the Crusades of the Middle Ages.  The way the Mages are forced to live is also abhorrent.  The discussion with Greagoir about the situation and him talking about "The Right of Annulment" caused me to think about Hitler's "Final Solution."  And the hunting down Mages like animals is just plain wrong.

In short, I would love a major expansion that offered a character to chose between two warring factions.  I think the Elves, Dwarves, Mages, and say a certain percentage of like-minded Fereldan's could more than stand up to the Chantry and their allies.

You probably ought to study history some more. If Ferelden is analogous to 12th century England (and we are told it is), then you are proposing that the English Jews, the English atheists (all six of them), the Cornish and the entire population of the Isle of Man take on everyone else, including the Scots, Irish, Welsh and the French.

You may wish to recalculate the odds. Pushing for a reform of the Chantry might be a better option.

[Helios969]

mousestalker wrote...

Helios969 wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Well, that's a little like proposing to abolish evangelical christianity in the American south, Catholicism in Ireland, or Islam in Saudi Arabia. It's not going to happen.

Yes, let's do that.  I'm against anything that blatantly attempts to subjugate freewill and forces people to live according to someone else's moral code.  What they did to the elves was despicable - an obvious parallel to the Crusades of the Middle Ages.  The way the Mages are forced to live is also abhorrent.  The discussion with Greagoir about the situation and him talking about "The Right of Annulment" caused me to think about Hitler's "Final Solution."  And the hunting down Mages like animals is just plain wrong.

In short, I would love a major expansion that offered a character to chose between two warring factions.  I think the Elves, Dwarves, Mages, and say a certain percentage of like-minded Fereldan's could more than stand up to the Chantry and their allies.

You probably ought to study history some more. If Ferelden is analogous to 12th century England (and we are told it is), then you are proposing that the English Jews, the English atheists (all six of them), the Cornish and the entire population of the Isle of Man take on everyone else, including the Scots, Irish, Welsh and the French.

You may wish to recalculate the odds. Pushing for a reform of the Chantry might be a better option.

Yeah, cause they'd be more than willing to do so - having made to seen the errors of their ways, right?  I really don't see Fereldan as being analogous to 12th century England unless you know of a history book that tells of dwarves, elves, and mages.  If the majority of the mages rallied to my banner, it would provide a huge tactical advantage on the battlefield - equalizing Fereldan's greater numbers.

Besides, we're talking about gameplay.  Your way would be boring.  "The Great Fereldan Conflict of 1215 Blessed:  Not a drop of blood was spilled and everybody lived happily ever after."

[KnightofPhoenix]

Highdragonslayer wrote...
The reason why the Tevinter Imperium was defeated by Andraste and her barbarians is because of the blight.

 And?
Andraste didn't summon the darkspawn if that's what you are implying. It was most likely Tevinter that brough this upon itself. how is the Chantry to blame for this?
Point extremily moot and useless.

Highdragonslayer wrote...
Also with the recent one the mages could have made it a lot easier for Teryn Loghain to call the attack and maybe would have if it didn't take so long to do.

Yes, because if the Chantry has one **** in its rank, that means it's all bad and evil. Grow up.
Plus, Loghain didn't insist. He just let it go.  

Highdragonslayer wrote...
On the elves also they at least deserve respect for helping their chantry flourish, but nope they don't believe in their god so they get conquered and assimilated as second class citizens, trust me Chantry does a lot more bad than good in this game.

The elves refused to help humans during a blight. And according to human historians, they started attacking human settlements. A partial lie no doubt. Just like the elven "Oh no we were attacked unprovoked" is also a lie. Both factions are to blame.

And boohoo, the weak get subjugated by the strong. How shocking.

[DPSSOC]

Helios969 wrote...

Yeah, cause they'd be more than willing to do so - having made to seen the errors of their ways, right?

Worked with the Catholics...kinda.

Helios969 wrote...

I really don't see Fereldan as being analogous to 12th century England unless you know of a history book that tells of dwarves, elves, and mages.

Elves -> Irish (generally smaller than the english, treated poorly, and like the colour green)
Dwarves -> Scottish (generally broader than the english, reputation for being drunks, and excessive facial hair)
Mages -> Mythic history does come from somewhere

[krylo]

DPSSOC wrote...
As far as the mages they should be free, cause if the Circle taught us anything it's that nothing can ever go wrong when mages are involved.

And that whole thing only happened because the mages were attempting to get freedom from chantry control and turned to blood magic and demonology in desperation when it became apparent that the rest of the Circle wouldn't follow Loghain after his treachery was revealed.

The Tevinter Imperium existed for centuries without any rules being placed on mages, and continues to exist even today, and while they have PLENTY of civil rights issues on their own, they, oddly, seem to have even LESS trouble with abominations than the rest of Thedas.

Odd that.

[Helios969]

DPSSOC wrote...

Helios969 wrote...

Yeah, cause they'd be more than willing to do so - having made to seen the errors of their ways, right?

Worked with the Catholics...kinda.

Helios969 wrote...

I really don't see Fereldan as being analogous to 12th century England unless you know of a history book that tells of dwarves, elves, and mages.

Elves -> Irish (generally smaller than the english, treated poorly, and like the colour green)
Dwarves -> Scottish (generally broader than the english, reputation for being drunks, and excessive facial hair)
Mages -> Mythic history does come from somewhere

Fantasy video game.  None of those things actually existed.  I was responding to someone who wanted to parallel England during the middle ages with Fereldan in a literal sense.

[Creature 1]

Helios969 wrote...
I really don't see Fereldan as being analogous to 12th century England unless you know of a history book that tells of dwarves, elves, and mages.  If the majority of the mages rallied to my banner, it would provide a huge tactical advantage on the battlefield - equalizing Fereldan's greater numbers.

It's analogous because it was a society with religion similarly embedded in the social fabric.  Saying, "I'm going to discredit the chantry" is kind of like saying, "I'm going to replace feudalism with a representative democracy."  Maybe in a century or two, definitely not in a matter of years. 

You wouldn't get the majority of mages.  You might get the libertarians, but they are a minority, and they might not side with you because they might assume you'd lose. 

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Ferelden is a fantasy rendering somewhat of 12th century England, so the comparison does apply. The key word is fantasy.



I'd like to see the Chantry knocked down a few pegs and confronted with their nonsense and such. But I don't want them abolished, unless they simply fade away from lack of support. Religion, as much as I find it silly superstition, is a matter of personal belief for everyone. Some people need it.



What I do want to happen is the Chantry lose the templars, lose the Circle, and influence in politics. They need to have their teeth yanked out, most definitely. Giving a religous organization a monopoly over something as potent as magic is not wise. But fighting a direct war against a religon is not smart, especially when most people believe in this religion and would defend it. So you'd end up with a buttload of collatteral damage and killing alot of people.



The best way to reform is what happened in real world history: "heresy" and innovation, revolution of thought and belief. Start providing proof countering the Chantry's claims. bring to light it's dirtier secrets. But to attack and destroy the Chantry itself? Only if you plan to do the same for the Qun, which is equally militant and dangerous. You do need some counter-force for balance.



And what happened to the elves can't fully be laid at the Chantry's doorstep. They did the exhalted marches, but humans had low opinions of them long before, and if it wasn't the Chantry, human governments probably would have done the same. Humans generally see elves as weak and inferior because they are so easily conquered and subjugated. Removing the Chantry won't improve matters for the elves much, except ending the occasional templar excursions to hunt apostates. The people who benefit most from the Chantry getting knocked aside will be the mages.



I'd rather be able to feed the Chantry plenty of rope so that they can hang themselves, as opposed to inititating a fight with them, which might gather sympathy.

[krylo]

Helios969 wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

Elves -> Irish (generally smaller than the english, treated poorly, and like the colour green)
Dwarves -> Scottish (generally broader than the english, reputation for being drunks, and excessive facial hair)
Mages -> Mythic history does come from somewhere

Fantasy video game.  None of those things actually existed.  I was responding to someone who wanted to parallel England during the middle ages with Fereldan in a literal sense.

Well the point is that their analogus to them.

However, you might point out that while in England the Irish, and Scottish were both Catholics alongside the common Englishman, in DA the Elves are split between druidism and the chantry and all the dwarves are athiests--and the mages are split all over the place on their feelings toward the chantry, AND are probably the most powerful group if they didn't have swords to their throats at all times.

Modifié par krylo, 20 février 2010 - 04:05 .

[Helios969]

I think some are missing the point of the OP to have a campaign option to eliminate the Chantry. As far as the particulars of story, potential alliances and challenges to overcome, such could be handled with relative ease by the writers.

[Highdragonslayer]

 And?
Andraste didn't summon the darkspawn if that's what you are implying. It was most likely Tevinter that brough this upon itself. how is the Chantry to blame for this?
Point extremily moot and useless.


Yes, because if the Chantry has one **** in its rank, that means it's all bad and evil. Grow up.
Plus, Loghain didn't insist. He just let it go.  


The elves refused to help humans during a blight. And according to human historians, they started attacking human settlements. A partial lie no doubt. Just like the elven "Oh no we were attacked unprovoked" is also a lie. Both factions are to blame.

And boohoo, the weak get subjugated by the strong. How shocking.

You do realize that the imperium were facing a blight and andraste just used this as an easy way to conquer.

That priest was probably a high ranking official if the king, grey warden commander, and the tactical genoius loghian have to do what she says.

I don't know about that last point, but wasn't it implied that they did the exalted march because they wouldn't accept the maker? Hence the name exalted march?

[krylo]

Helios969 wrote...

I think some are missing the point of the OP to have a campaign option to eliminate the Chantry. As far as the particulars of story, potential alliances and challenges to overcome, such could be handled with relative ease by the writers.

The current argument is more fun.

Also, while I think that such a thing might be possible to write, it probably shouldn't be written.  We already go the option (as a mage player) to significantly neuter the chantry's powers over mages in Ferelden.  I'm not sure it should go much further than that--other than perhaps allowing other character origins to do the same.

Modifié par krylo, 20 février 2010 - 04:28 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Highdragonslayer wrote...
You do realize that the imperium were facing a blight and andraste just used this as an easy way to conquer.

Andraste fought the imperium after the first blight. And yes, she took advantage of the Imperium's weakness. Is she to be blamed because she is smart? What do you expect? For her to let the imperium grow back in power and then try to free her people from oppression?
How does that make the Chantry responsable for the blight that the Tevinter mages probably unleashed themselves?

Highdragonslayer wrote...
That priest was probably a high ranking official if the king, grey warden commander, and the tactical genoius loghian have to do what she says.

Loghain didn't have to do what she said. He simply silenced all of them and didn't assign Uldred to the tower. It was his decision and I doubt Loghain would give a flying **** about what an old hag says.

Highdragonslayer wrote...
I don't know about that last point, but wasn't it implied that they did the exalted march because they wouldn't accept the maker? Hence the name exalted march?

Read the codexes.
During the second blight, the elves refused to help the humans and watched as humans were being slaughtered. So much for allies.
After that, humans, obviouvsly annoyed by the elves, started pressuring them. The Chantry claimed that the elves kidnapped humans for blood magic sacrifice, which is probably a lie but it fueled tension. This led to border skirmishes. Human settlements claim that elves raided them. That led to war. It was the elves who were on the offensive at first, not Orlais. The Elves conquered Montsimmard, sacked Val Royeaux, until all Andrastian nations joined the frey in the newly declared Exalted march and they wiped the elves out. Religion is always used as a tool of war, so naturally, the fight between Andrastian nations and the elves, turned into a fight between believers and pagans. That's natural.

To suggest that the elves were poor innocent tree huggers that were destroyed by the evil chantry is simply ahistorical. Had the elves helped the humans against the blight, then perhaps all of this would have been avoided. That's free riding on the elves part. "Let the humans die and suffer while they save us from the blight, we don't need to help them". In addition, it was the elves who were on the offensive at first.

EDIT: I forgot. The Chantry, according to the elves, sent missionaries and then Templars into their lands, which made things worse. But it's clear the conflict was being fueled by the two sides.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 20 février 2010 - 04:49 .