97 réponses à ce sujet

[Reaverwind]

Highdragonslayer wrote...

 And?
Andraste didn't summon the darkspawn if that's what you are implying. It was most likely Tevinter that brough this upon itself. how is the Chantry to blame for this?
Point extremily moot and useless.


Yes, because if the Chantry has one **** in its rank, that means it's all bad and evil. Grow up.
Plus, Loghain didn't insist. He just let it go.  


The elves refused to help humans during a blight. And according to human historians, they started attacking human settlements. A partial lie no doubt. Just like the elven "Oh no we were attacked unprovoked" is also a lie. Both factions are to blame.

And boohoo, the weak get subjugated by the strong. How shocking.

You do realize that the imperium were facing a blight and andraste just used this as an easy way to conquer.

That priest was probably a high ranking official if the king, grey warden commander, and the tactical genoius loghian have to do what she says.

I don't know about that last point, but wasn't it implied that they did the exalted march because they wouldn't accept the maker? Hence the name exalted march?

If you listen to both the Dalish and Leliana's version, you learn that it's unclear as to what exactly lead to the exalted march on the Dales, but it was due in part to rising tensions between the Chantry and the Dalish, as the latter re-established the old elven religion and pretty much opposed any expansion of the Andrastrian faith into their territory. Both sides claim the other attacked first. The subsequent exalted march had nothing to do with anyone refusing to help during a Blight.

Modifié par Reaverwind, 20 février 2010 - 04:39 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Reaverwind wrote...


If you listen to both the Dalish and Leliana's version, you learn that it's unclear as to what exactly lead to the exalted march on the Dales, but it was due in part to rising tensions between the Chantry and the Dalish, as the latter re-established the old elven religion and pretty much opposed any expansion of the Andrastrian faith into their territory. Both sides claim the other attacked first. The subsequent exalted march had nothing to do with anyone refusing to help during a Blight.

It did. It fueled tension and hatred that eventually led to the war.

[Highdragonslayer]

[quote]Highdragonslayer wrote...
You do realize that the imperium were facing a blight and andraste just used this as an easy way to conquer.[/quote]

Andraste fought the imperium after the first blight. And yes, she took advantage of the Imperium's weakness. Is she to be blamed because she is smart? What do you expect? For her to let the imperium grow back in power and then try to free her people from oppression?
How does that make the Chantry responsable for the blight that the Tevinter mages probably unleashed themselves?

[quote]Highdragonslayer wrote...
That priest was probably a high ranking official if the king, grey warden commander, and the tactical genoius loghian have to do what she says.[/quote]

Loghain didn't have to do what she said. He simply silenced all of them and didn't assign Uldred to the tower. It was his decision and I doubt Loghain would give a flying **** about what an old hag says.

[quote]Highdragonslayer wrote...
I don't know about that last point, but wasn't it implied that they did the exalted march because they wouldn't accept the maker? Hence the name exalted march?[/quote]

Read the codexes.
During the second blight, the elves refused to help the humans and watched as humans were being slaughtered. So much for allies.
After that, humans, obviouvsly annoyed by the elves, started pressuring them. The Chantry claimed that the elves kidnapped humans for blood magic sacrifice, which is probably a lie but it fueled tension. This led to border skirmishes. Human settlements claim that elves raided them. That led to war. It was the elves who were on the offensive at first, not Orlais. The Elves conquered Montsimmard, sacked Val Royeaux, until all Andrastian nations joined the frey in the newly declared Exalted march and they wiped the elves out. Religion is always used as a tool of war, so naturally, the fight between Andrastian nations and the elves, turned into a fight between believers and pagans. That's natural.

To suggest that the elves were poor innocent tree huggers that were destroyed by the evil chantry is simply ahistorical. Had the elves helped the humans against the blight, then perhaps all of this would have been avoided. That's free riding on the elves part. "Let the humans die and suffer while they save us from the blight, we don't need to help them". In addition, it was the elves who were on the offensive at first.

[/quote]

     The darkspawn would be much easier to defeat if the chantry didn't have to impose their will on everything they wouldn't be much of a problem. If mages could get a fraction of the power that they had,during the tevinter days (im talking about magical power in general),  then the blights wouldn't be a problem at all, but the tevinter was probably worse so give or take.

     I wasn't referring only to loghain, but the other two commanders there, this priest must have had a very high authority to command, the king, and the grey warden to not use a much easier battle stratedgy. Espiecally since the grey wardens believe, whatever it takes.

     I didn't know that about the elves, but it could be possible that, that was history told from a human point of view, unfortunately that is the only point of view there is, because the elves lost all of their history, and little better than slaves now. To qoute Call of duty "History is written by the winner"

[Helios969]

krylo wrote...

Helios969 wrote...

I think some are missing the point of the OP to have a campaign option to eliminate the Chantry. As far as the particulars of story, potential alliances and challenges to overcome, such could be handled with relative ease by the writers.

The current argument is more fun.

Also, while I think that such a thing might be possible to write, it probably shouldn't be written.  We already go the option (as a mage player) to significantly neuter the chantry's powers over mages in Ferelden.  I'm not sure it should go much further than that--other than perhaps allowing other character origins to do the same.

We do?  I must have missed that option, please tell me.

[krylo]

Helios969 wrote...

krylo wrote...

Helios969 wrote...

I think some are missing the point of the OP to have a campaign option to eliminate the Chantry. As far as the particulars of story, potential alliances and challenges to overcome, such could be handled with relative ease by the writers.

The current argument is more fun.

Also, while I think that such a thing might be possible to write, it probably shouldn't be written.  We already go the option (as a mage player) to significantly neuter the chantry's powers over mages in Ferelden.  I'm not sure it should go much further than that--other than perhaps allowing other character origins to do the same.

We do?  I must have missed that option, please tell me.

You can request that the circle be freed from the chantry/templers.

Which is most of the Chantry's power, right there.  Templers aren't allowed to do police/guard work etc.  Only police the mages.  I assume they'd still use the templers to hunt down dangerous abominations, but it would be with the Circle's permission, not because the Templers have the right to do whatever they want with mages.

Basically, things would probably look the same, honestly, but the balance of power would be tipped in that the Chantry is working for the circle at that point in exchange for being allowed to 'protect' the people, not the other way around.

Modifié par krylo, 20 février 2010 - 05:01 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Highdragonslayer wrote...
 The darkspawn would be much easier to defeat if the chantry didn't have to impose their will on everything they wouldn't be much of a problem. If mages could get a fraction of the power that they had,during the tevinter days (im talking about magical power in general),  then the blights wouldn't be a problem at all, but the tevinter was probably worse so give or take. 

Or the mages could do what tevinter mages did in the past, create more darkspawns. One has to be consistent. The Chantry believes it was the mages' fault that the darkspawn came into existence in the first place. Whether that is true or not is not the issue. So for the Chantry to give more power to the mages to fight the very thing that it believes they are responable for is incoherent. So why expect the Chantry to do that?

Of course this doesn't suit Grey Warden ideals. But you have to understand the Chantry pov. There is strong reason to believe that the origins of the taint is magical in nature.

Now I personally would perfer relaxation vis aa vis the mages and to employ them in war. But I would also be very careful. WE have seen what mages coudl unleash if left unchekced.

Highdragonslayer wrote...
     I wasn't referring only to loghain, but the other two commanders there, this priest must have had a very high authority to command, the king, and the grey warden to not use a much easier battle stratedgy. Espiecally since the grey wardens believe, whatever it takes.

She didn't command anyone. She simply whined and then Loghain shut her up. 
And let's assume that she did hold very high authority. So what?
The Chantry has one **** in a high position, so it must be all bad and evil?

Highdragonslayer wrote...
     I didn't know that about the elves, but it could be possible that, that was history told from a human point of view, unfortunately that is the only point of view there is, because the elves lost all of their history, and little better than slaves now. To qoute Call of duty "History is written by the winner"

I edited my post and wrote about the elven perspective. Losers of course like to victimise themselves, so the history written by the losers is usually as mythical as the one written by winners.
The elves claim that the Chantry sent missionaries and then Templars. The humans claim the elves performed human sacrifices and made raids against human settlements.

We don't know which version is true. I think both of them are to a certain extent. but what we do know as fact is:
- The elves abandonned humanity in its time of need, which made humans hate them naturally.
- The elves were on the offensive and they invaded Orlais first. Sacked Val Royeaux even.

Make of that what you will.

[Helios969]

krylo wrote...

Helios969 wrote...

krylo wrote...

Helios969 wrote...

I think some are missing the point of the OP to have a campaign option to eliminate the Chantry. As far as the particulars of story, potential alliances and challenges to overcome, such could be handled with relative ease by the writers.

The current argument is more fun.

Also, while I think that such a thing might be possible to write, it probably shouldn't be written.  We already go the option (as a mage player) to significantly neuter the chantry's powers over mages in Ferelden.  I'm not sure it should go much further than that--other than perhaps allowing other character origins to do the same.

We do?  I must have missed that option, please tell me.

You can request that the circle be freed from the chantry/templers.

Which is most of the Chantry's power, right there.  Templers aren't allowed to do police/guard work etc.  Only police the mages.  I assume they'd still use the templers to hunt down dangerous abominations, but it would be with the Circle's permission, not because the Templers have the right to do whatever they want with mages.

Basically, things would probably look the same, honestly, but the balance of power would be tipped in that the Chantry is working for the circle at that point in exchange for being allowed to 'protect' the people, not the other way around.

Cool.  I remember the option, but figured it wouldn't actually work.  I will definitely do that this go around.

[krylo]

Helios969 wrote...

krylo wrote...

Helios969 wrote...

krylo wrote...

Helios969 wrote...

I think some are missing the point of the OP to have a campaign option to eliminate the Chantry. As far as the particulars of story, potential alliances and challenges to overcome, such could be handled with relative ease by the writers.

The current argument is more fun.

Also, while I think that such a thing might be possible to write, it probably shouldn't be written.  We already go the option (as a mage player) to significantly neuter the chantry's powers over mages in Ferelden.  I'm not sure it should go much further than that--other than perhaps allowing other character origins to do the same.

We do?  I must have missed that option, please tell me.

You can request that the circle be freed from the chantry/templers.

Which is most of the Chantry's power, right there.  Templers aren't allowed to do police/guard work etc.  Only police the mages.  I assume they'd still use the templers to hunt down dangerous abominations, but it would be with the Circle's permission, not because the Templers have the right to do whatever they want with mages.

Basically, things would probably look the same, honestly, but the balance of power would be tipped in that the Chantry is working for the circle at that point in exchange for being allowed to 'protect' the people, not the other way around.

Cool.  I remember the option, but figured it wouldn't actually work.  I will definitely do that this go around.

I was pretty shocked it did.

I was expecting it to be shot down with a, "I don't think the political climate is good for this right now" type of excuse considering the whole Uldred fiasco.

[BeljoraDien]

Highdragonslayer wrote...

bythebarricades wrote...

I don't know, the Chantry seems to do a lot of good.
- At Ostagar, there are a number of priests there to support the men in a difficult time. They likely die alongside the soldiers they are ministering too.
- In Lothering, the Chantry and its Templars are doing their best to facilitate an orderly evacuation. We see how a member of the Chantry is critical of a merchant who isn't helping and isn't afraid to stand up to him.
- In Redcliffe, the Chantry serves as a last resort for the people, as in Lothering.
- Across Ferelden, it runs a board, providing rewards for people engaging in good deeds. In Lothering, a child even mentions that the Chantry rewarded his father for helping fix a widow's roof.
- In Orzammar, you can convince the Shaperate to allow a Chantry because it would serve as a charitable organization to help the casteless and orphans.
- It recruits and trains Templars to keep mages in line and hunt down maleficarum, some of the most dangerest threats to society.

     Ehh.. for that first point it seems to me that the chantry seemed like it caused ostagar to be overwhelmed. After the war meeting a mage offers to do the signal fire instead of wasting grey wardens on it, however a chrantry priest says some rude self rightous thing and doesn't let him. 

The mage that offers to do the signal fire is ULDRED; you know the powerful blood mage who turns himself and other mages into demons against their will? You have to give credit to the Chantry for stopping him from leading anything at that critical moment. 'course it still didn't turn out well, but that seemed like one possible disaster diverted.

Modifié par BeljoraDien, 20 février 2010 - 05:31 .

[Highdragonslayer]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Highdragonslayer wrote...
 The darkspawn would be much easier to defeat if the chantry didn't have to impose their will on everything they wouldn't be much of a problem. If mages could get a fraction of the power that they had,during the tevinter days (im talking about magical power in general),  then the blights wouldn't be a problem at all, but the tevinter was probably worse so give or take. 

Or the mages could do what tevinter mages did in the past, create more darkspawns. One has to be consistent. The Chantry believes it was the mages' fault that the darkspawn came into existence in the first place. Whether that is true or not is not the issue. So for the Chantry to give more power to the mages to fight the very thing that it believes they are responable for is incoherent. So why expect the Chantry to do that?

Of course this doesn't suit Grey Warden ideals. But you have to understand the Chantry pov. There is strong reason to believe that the origins of the taint is magical in nature.

Now I personally would perfer relaxation vis aa vis the mages and to employ them in war. But I would also be very careful. WE have seen what mages coudl unleash if left unchekced.

Highdragonslayer wrote...
     I wasn't referring only to loghain, but the other two commanders there, this priest must have had a very high authority to command, the king, and the grey warden to not use a much easier battle stratedgy. Espiecally since the grey wardens believe, whatever it takes.

She didn't command anyone. She simply whined and then Loghain shut her up. 
And let's assume that she did hold very high authority. So what?
The Chantry has one **** in a high position, so it must be all bad and evil?

Highdragonslayer wrote...
     I didn't know that about the elves, but it could be possible that, that was history told from a human point of view, unfortunately that is the only point of view there is, because the elves lost all of their history, and little better than slaves now. To qoute Call of duty "History is written by the winner"

I edited my post and wrote about the elven perspective. Losers of course like to victimise themselves, so the history written by the losers is usually as mythical as the one written by winners.
The elves claim that the Chantry sent missionaries and then Templars. The humans claim the elves performed human sacrifices and made raids against human settlements.

We don't know which version is true. I think both of them are to a certain extent. but what we do know as fact is:
- The elves abandonned humanity in its time of need, which made humans hate them naturally.
- The elves were on the offensive and they invaded Orlais first. Sacked Val Royeaux even.

Make of that what you will.

If the Tevinter mages did create darkspawn then it was because of blood magic, but their power didn't only come from their blood magic though. If mages now were allowed to reclaim a fraction of that power the darkspawn would be less of a threat consiberably.

In an organization usually those with more authority do things to earn it. In a religous organization, that person with the authority must be very religous to get that high of a position. Espiecally when this is a religoes organization that oppreses people for just being born with a gift. I didn't say that the chantry was evil, I just think it's full of misguided people who do more harm than good.

The elf story makes a lot more sense then the elves randomly taking up the magic that enslaved them for a century, and start randomly attacking a superior force fighting force.

[Highdragonslayer]

[/quote]

The mage that offers to do the signal fire is ULDRED; you know the powerful blood mage who turns himself and other mages into demons against their will? You have to give credit to the Chantry for stopping him from leading anything at that critical moment. 'course it still didn't turn out well, but that seemed like one possible disaster diverted.[/quote]

    Actually that wasn't really Uldred it was a pride a demon that turned him into an abomination. All he really wanted was to be free of the chantry, so like many other mages he turned to blood magic. That also happened after Ostagar, most likely that caused him to go over the tipping point when the chantry priest's distrust in mages  possibly led an entire army to be devoured by darkspawn. At that point he most likely just wanted to be free of chantry, to stop any more mistakes that would happen on their part.

[Creature 1]

Highdragonslayer wrote...
In an organization usually those with more authority do things to earn it. In a religous organization, that person with the authority must be very religous to get that high of a position.

Not necessarily.  In the Catholic church powerful positions were handed out as political favors to people who definitely were not devout.  Just look at some of the popes they ended up with.  And for an organization whose priests were supposed to be celibate, the number of bastard children of cardinals and popes is amazing. 

[Reaverwind]

Highdragonslayer wrote...


In an organization usually those with more authority do things to earn it. In a religous organization, that person with the authority must be very religous to get that high of a position. .

Er, no, that's so laughable it's to the point of not being funny. Really. As with any political institution, the over-riding qualification for getting to the top of a religious organization is the ability to "play the game" better than anyone else. I suggest looking at the real-life examples.

[BeljoraDien]

Highdragonslayer wrote...

    Actually that wasn't really Uldred it was a pride a demon that turned him into an abomination. All he really wanted was to be free of the chantry, so like many other mages he turned to blood magic. That also happened after Ostagar, most likely that caused him to go over the tipping point when the chantry priest's distrust in mages  possibly led an entire army to be devoured by darkspawn. At that point he most likely just wanted to be free of chantry, to stop any more mistakes that would happen on their part.

So... he had absolutely no malous or intent to use blood magic until that moment a Chantry priest told him he couldn't light the beacon? Somehow I don't think so. And if it was the case, he surely knew blood magic and demon-summoning techniques at that point... I don't think he just quickly turned to it and learned it after that day. You don't even have the option to save him or help him, so I think it's pretty clear he's evil and beyond redemption.

[Creature 1]

Reaverwind wrote...

Highdragonslayer wrote...


In an organization usually those with more authority do things to earn it. In a religous organization, that person with the authority must be very religous to get that high of a position. .

Er, no, that's so laughable it's to the point of not being funny. Really. As with any political institution, the over-riding qualification for getting to the top of a religious organization is the ability to "play the game" better than anyone else. I suggest looking at the real-life examples.

Cesare Borgia and his father, Pope Alexander VI, are good examples! 

[Reaverwind]

BeljoraDien wrote...

Highdragonslayer wrote...

    Actually that wasn't really Uldred it was a pride a demon that turned him into an abomination. All he really wanted was to be free of the chantry, so like many other mages he turned to blood magic. That also happened after Ostagar, most likely that caused him to go over the tipping point when the chantry priest's distrust in mages  possibly led an entire army to be devoured by darkspawn. At that point he most likely just wanted to be free of chantry, to stop any more mistakes that would happen on their part.

So... he had absolutely no malous or intent to use blood magic until that moment a Chantry priest told him he couldn't light the beacon? Somehow I don't think so. And if it was the case, he surely knew blood magic and demon-summoning techniques at that point... I don't think he just quickly turned to it and learned it after that day. You don't even have the option to save him or help him, so I think it's pretty clear he's evil and beyond redemption.

I got the impression from reading Irving's journal that Uldred had been practicing blood magic for some time, and duped Irving into helping him find students to pass this knowledge onto, under the pretext of rooting out those pre-disposed to using it.

Modifié par Reaverwind, 20 février 2010 - 05:57 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

reaver, that seems the most likely. it would make sense, as it would allow Uldred to gather his following without rousing too much suspicion and make it look like he was playing the game.



Mastering demonology and blood magic takes a pretty long time, so Uldred was definitely being a bad boy for a while. But Uldred has been in the Circle for quite some time, under the Chantry's boot, and has probably been seething and quietly building up to the point he could throw off his masters successfully. I rather wished he could have left the demon crap alone and not got possesed, so he could succeed. It would have been nice to support a non-possesed, hard-core Libertarian and make him first enchanter, thus causing his loyalty to shift from Loghain's cause to mine.

[Sabriana]

Creature 1 wrote...

Reaverwind wrote...

Highdragonslayer wrote...


In an organization usually those with more authority do things to earn it. In a religous organization, that person with the authority must be very religous to get that high of a position. .

Er, no, that's so laughable it's to the point of not being funny. Really. As with any political institution, the over-riding qualification for getting to the top of a religious organization is the ability to "play the game" better than anyone else. I suggest looking at the real-life examples.

Cesare Borgia and his father, Pope Alexander VI, are good examples! 

All the Borgias are good examples. Look what happened there, the power-struggles were immense. I always do feel a bit sorry for Lucrezia though. Her own family, including the leading religious leader, her father, Pope Alexander, used her as a tool.

[Reaverwind]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

reaver, that seems the most likely. it would make sense, as it would allow Uldred to gather his following without rousing too much suspicion and make it look like he was playing the game.

Mastering demonology and blood magic takes a pretty long time, so Uldred was definitely being a bad boy for a while. But Uldred has been in the Circle for quite some time, under the Chantry's boot, and has probably been seething and quietly building up to the point he could throw off his masters successfully. I rather wished he could have left the demon crap alone and not got possesed, so he could succeed. It would have been nice to support a non-possesed, hard-core Libertarian and make him first enchanter, thus causing his loyalty to shift from Loghain's cause to mine.

Let me add some fuel to the fire: From dialogues with Petra, Niall and even Wynne herself, demons would probably not even entered the equation had Wynne not stuck her nose in. I gathered that Irving was in agreement with Uldred's proposal to align with Loghain (it was to the Circle's benefit, after all) until Wynne confronted Irving with what happened at Ostogar.

Now, while I'm not giving Loghain a free pass, since the plan which lead to the disaster WAS his, and he should have gotten together with Duncan to knock some sense into Cailin's head, I've no doubt Wynne wasn't entirely truthful about what happened.

[mousestalker]

On a side note, Wynne is a senior enchanter. Why wasn't she at the meeting? I avoid meetings like the plague, but any normal person, having dropped a bombshell like that, would stick around to see what transpires. Why wasn't she there?

[Sabriana]

mousestalker wrote...

On a side note, Wynne is a senior enchanter. Why wasn't she at the meeting? I avoid meetings like the plague, but any normal person, having dropped a bombshell like that, would stick around to see what transpires. Why wasn't she there?

Yes, I've always wondered that myself.

As for Ostagar, stick Loghain and Wynne in the party and see how quickly she backs down. Amazing, really.

[spottyblanket]

Religion is an important thing in the game. The chantry is very important in dragon age, its part of the history--you can't just do away with it. Most of the folklore and stories of the world stem from the chanty. To be rid of it would devoid the game of dimension.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Actually, Loghain's support of Uldred's bid to free the tower was about the only respectable thing he did. It wasn't Loghain's fault that Uldred went bat **** crazy with the demons and crap, hell, Loghain probably would have questioned the sanity of siding with him if he did.



When you recruit Loghain, he even points this out, dripping with sarcasm, when Wynne starts going off on him about the whole tower fiasco being his fault. he says something like (paraphrased) "yes, it was all part of my dastardly scheme. I had this nefarious plan from the beginning to completely destroy one of Ferelden's most powerful military assets by telling Uldred to summon demons and turn into abominations, and thus, irreversably destroying my chances of having them aid me."



In fact, Loghain and Wynne's banter was great, as he totally grinds into her busy body self-righteousness and calls her out, point blank.





back on topic, the Chantry pretty much acts with pragmatism and is one of the biggest players "of the game". Look how they did nothing and supported the tyrannical rule of Meghren, including his abuse of the people, because it was "the Maker's will he rule". And then, switches sides when the rebellion starts winning. I think amongst the higher ranks of Chantry clergy, real belief and faith has little to do with their lives as a guiding principle.