73 réponses à ce sujet

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Helios969 wrote...

spottyblanket wrote...

Hey, don't go slammin' on my girl -  I might have to start beating up on Zev again:)  Besides, not wanting to sleep with Morrigan is a very un-manlike behavior.  Most men will sleep with a beautiful woman even if they don't like her.  Conversely, if a woman is particularly unattractive, no amount of inner beauty will make him want to. 

Says who? Those kind of men are shallow and unworthy of anyone. They'd be just as happy playing hand ball.

Spoken like someone with very little life experience.

I've had plenty of life experience to know that those who think a guy who refuses sex with a woman who is good looking is not "a man" have not managed to mentally progress past puberty. There is far more to attraction then boobs and butts, and for alot of men, no amount of beauty is going to override their revulsion to sex with someone they find despicable and dangerous on many fronts. And I have often seen men quite happy to sleep with a highly unattractive woman because she posseses other, non-physical enchanting qualities.

Anyway, getting Alistair to do the ritual has not been a problem for me. if he's in love with you, it makes it easier than if he's not, and I never even had to do the persuade check. I'm guessing it also factors in just how much you tell him of the ritual as well. He does get really upset, but you can still get him to do it because it's important to you.

[krylo]

zaim298 wrote...

 but I have to agree that I need healer more
than dps mage in my party, so I never drop Wynne unless in special
cases like character selection for specific quests.

Sabriana wrote...

Alistair is a really good tank. Throw him, Zevran, and Morrigan at the enemies, and your PC can fight with her eyes closed. Morrigan gets the healing spell, and she also gets to be a Spirit Healer (she probably hates my PC for doing that to her. Morrigan disapproves -5. Have a golden necklace dear )
Alistair is a STR/DEX sword and shield warrior/templar, Zevran is DEX/STR rogue/duelist, Morrigan is a MA/WIL damage dealer/spirit healer. Piece of cake.

Sorry to side track this a little bit, but... really?

I had Wynne in my party instead of Morrigan for the tower and was quickly just getting annoyed with the fact that things were actually hitting me.  "Where's my Cone of Cold?" I'd ask with disdain.  "Where are my paralyzes? My stuns?  My freezes?  My forcefields?  Where is my crushing prison?" I'd wail in despair as I watched swords actually come in contact with my poor spongy flesh.  "Where are my fireballs?  Where are my Infernos?" I'd ponder with derision as I was being pounded by multiple enemies.  "Where is my sleep?  Where is my horror?" I would gasp in terror as I realized I had no way to instantly stop groups who were right on top of me without hurting my own party.

I honestly found mage healing pretty pointless in this game.  Pots were more than sufficient, and losing a character slot that could have more DPS or CC just so I could put off using pots a bit longer/save money on elfroots didn't seem worth it to me.  At all.

I only even USE pots when I'm up against bosses on normal difficulty, anyway.

Modifié par krylo, 20 février 2010 - 04:21 .

[Helios969]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Helios969 wrote...

spottyblanket wrote...

Hey, don't go slammin' on my girl -  I might have to start beating up on Zev again:)  Besides, not wanting to sleep with Morrigan is a very un-manlike behavior.  Most men will sleep with a beautiful woman even if they don't like her.  Conversely, if a woman is particularly unattractive, no amount of inner beauty will make him want to. 

Says who? Those kind of men are shallow and unworthy of anyone. They'd be just as happy playing hand ball.

Spoken like someone with very little life experience.

I've had plenty of life experience to know that those who think a guy who refuses sex with a woman who is good looking is not "a man" have not managed to mentally progress past puberty. There is far more to attraction then boobs and butts, and for alot of men, no amount of beauty is going to override their revulsion to sex with someone they find despicable and dangerous on many fronts. And I have often seen men quite happy to sleep with a highly unattractive woman because she posseses other, non-physical enchanting qualities.

Anyway, getting Alistair to do the ritual has not been a problem for me. if he's in love with you, it makes it easier than if he's not, and I never even had to do the persuade check. I'm guessing it also factors in just how much you tell him of the ritual as well. He does get really upset, but you can still get him to do it because it's important to you.

There are always exception to the rule and you are wholly entitled to your opinion.  Read the following as someone asking you a reasonable question, not attempting to be confrontational or hostile.  As a woman how do you know how a man thinks?  Having man friends and having them tell you certain things is one thing, but what they do reveal to you may or may not be the truth or full truth.  Men behave very differently around a woman or groups of women than they do around their male companions.  I've observed similar behaviors from woman, as well.  There are no absolutes, but stereotypes exist for a reason.

BTW in the end I am only expressing my opinion or relating my experiences.  Everyone on this forum should automatically put IMO or based on my experience before every single post they read.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Stating something is wrong with a man who doesn't nail a hot woman simple because she's there and willing is a generalization that simply does not fit. There are so many reasons why, whether morality, preferences, concerns over consequences to self, personality, ect. The reasons for why they would not are as individual and varied as males are.



One does not have to read minds to be able to observe action and result of action. People reveal more about themselves through unconscious action than they do intentionally.



I was in that bastion of unabashed, unconstrained maleness, the army. Males behave differently around females usually when they have either some interest in them, or have certain opinions. Otherwise, their behavior varies greatly, as do their reasons for accepting/rejecting female company. What constitutes attractiveness to one man might be quite physically unappealing to another. And reasons for accepting/rejecting sex ranged from rather noble to pretty mean or selfish. males are no more simple, easily defined critters than females are. But when you live in close quarters with that many male co-workers, their behavior eventually becomes indistinguishable regardless of company.



The stereotype of "real men" being walking, talking erections is also variant upon culture. Stereotypes exist out of laziness and a need to easily categorize things. I think it's equally as sexist as concrete opinions about a womans place, or what a "real" woman, is supposed to do or not do.

[zaim298]

krylo wrote...

zaim298 wrote...

 but I have to agree that I need healer more
than dps mage in my party, so I never drop Wynne unless in special
cases like character selection for specific quests.

Sabriana wrote...

Alistair is a really good tank. Throw him, Zevran, and Morrigan at the enemies, and your PC can fight with her eyes closed. Morrigan gets the healing spell, and she also gets to be a Spirit Healer (she probably hates my PC for doing that to her. Morrigan disapproves -5. Have a golden necklace dear )
Alistair is a STR/DEX sword and shield warrior/templar, Zevran is DEX/STR rogue/duelist, Morrigan is a MA/WIL damage dealer/spirit healer. Piece of cake.

Sorry to side track this a little bit, but... really?

I had Wynne in my party instead of Morrigan for the tower and was quickly just getting annoyed with the fact that things were actually hitting me.  "Where's my Cone of Cold?" I'd ask with disdain.  "Where are my paralyzes? My stuns?  My freezes?  My forcefields?  Where is my crushing prison?" I'd wail in despair as I watched swords actually come in contact with my poor spongy flesh.  "Where are my fireballs?  Where are my Infernos?" I'd ponder with derision as I was being pounded by multiple enemies.  "Where is my sleep?  Where is my horror?" I would gasp in terror as I realized I had no way to instantly stop groups who were right on top of me without hurting my own party.

I honestly found mage healing pretty pointless in this game.  Pots were more than sufficient, and losing a character slot that could have more DPS or CC just so I could put off using pots a bit longer/save money on elfroots didn't seem worth it to me.  At all.

I only even USE pots when I'm up against bosses on normal difficulty, anyway.

Try Nightmare. Well, make it like this I always set Wynne to heal allies at <50 health, and all allies use poultices at <25 health, so I just don't have to worry about one of my party dead while I wasn't looking. And trust me when it did happen Revival is really a gold, so does Lifeward. Her buffs are also very nice like Haste and Heroic Aura to my dps and Heroic defense to my tank. Glyph of Neutralization to neutralize enemy mages.

All I'm saying is it depends on the style you play and the enemies you encounter, but most of the time I find that Wynne makes it easier for me. Although I do like Morrigan with her Cones of Cold (which sometimes frozed my members as well), or even better Mass Paralysis (with my Rogue Coup De Grace). The hexes are also nice.

On side note: some people hate microing, and I'm not really good at it tbh

[Sabriana]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

<snip, although it's good stuff>

The stereotype of "real men" being walking, talking erections is also variant upon culture. Stereotypes exist out of laziness and a need to easily categorize things. I think it's equally as sexist as concrete opinions about a womans place, or what a "real" woman, is supposed to do or not do.

*bows to Skadi*

[zaim298]

Refusing to bed a woman doesn't mean someone is less a man. Although I'm sure EVERY straight -man would have the thought of bedding the woman, it doesn't matter if he resist or go through with it is a different matter. But I say rejecting the offer actually is a manly thing to do, say like "you're a beautiful woman, but I have a wife and I love her" now ain't that something? *chuckle*

[Helios969]

[quote]zaim298 wrote...

Refusing to bed a woman doesn't mean someone is less a man. Although I'm sure EVERY straight -man would have the thought of bedding the woman, it doesn't matter if he resist or go through with it is a different matter. But I say rejecting the offer actually is a manly thing to do, say like "you're a beautiful woman, but I have a wife and I love her" now ain't that something? *chuckle*[/quote]

Thank you.  If you're married, then you should show restraint.  Or even in a committed relationship.  (If you have half a brain you will.)

[quote]Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

I was in that bastion of unabashed, unconstrained maleness, the army. Males behave differently around females usually when they have either some interest in them, or have certain opinions. Otherwise, their behavior varies greatly, as do their reasons for accepting/rejecting female company. What constitutes attractiveness to one man might be quite physically unappealing to another. And reasons for accepting/rejecting sex ranged from rather noble to pretty mean or selfish. males are no more simple, easily defined critters than females are. But when you live in close quarters with that many male co-workers, their behavior eventually becomes indistinguishable regardless of company.quote]

>Me too. Six years in both coed and male only units.  My guess is our experience and point of view comes from a very different perspective.  But again, your POV is of a woman looking from the outside in.  I hope you do realize there is a very real difference between the way men and women are hard-wired.  There are fundamental differences in chemistry that affect us emotionally in different ways.  And even in today's modern and "enlightened" world, boys and girls are raised differently and with different expectations.  And my observations have shown me that mothers are every bit as much to blame as fathers in such.  Your argument seems more about how things should be (and I don't disagree,) I'm just stating how things are.

If you had a bunch of your male army buddies and a beautiful woman came by and you asked them if they'd have sex with her, every single one of them would say yes - even if it weren't true, for fear of what their male companions would say.  So saying Alistair not wanting to have sex with Morrigan is an unmanly response is very simply true.

Modifié par Helios969, 20 février 2010 - 06:59 .

[soignee]

What amuses me is the majority of female gamers love Alistair, even if they don't percieve him as "romancable" option for their Warden, and what I call the DUDEBRO contingency that gaming companies still have to make allowances for call him a ****.



Then there are those inbetween who appreciate the snarky goodness he brings, of course. He's a 19 year old idiot when you first meet him who spent most of his life in the equivilent of monestary. He's like the goofy, inexperienced public school boy you first meet at University who doesn't know how to talk to girls, frankly, or have much in the way of life experience. I think he's awesome, especially if you bother talking to him.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

There are males I know who are extremely turned off by the whole idea of a woman throwing herself at him, because they simply find the idea of such an easy "conquest" to be a real passion killer.



I remember hanging out at a strip joint once waiting for the 6a.m. train back to the barracks with some buddies. The place packed. One of the strippers, who was getting off work, came over and was talking to one of my friends, and had invited him back to her place for drinks and what not. he flat out refused and asked her to leave him alone. Yes...much to the absolute shock and horror of the other four guys, who were asking if he was f***ing gay or something, or just plain stupid.



he basically said, that he found the idea of some strange woman coming over and getting so friendly with him to be abnormal and weird. He had a rather chauvanistic view that "normal" women didn't do things like that, that "normal" women had to be talked into sex and never initiated it, so obviously, something was seriously wrong with her in the head, and she probably even had VD or was on drugs. The others still thought he was an idiot, but as far as his "manlieness" goes, well, if anyone thought less of him, they kept quiet, because he probably would have hurt them physically quite badly. he was one of those wiry bastards that could seriously hurt bigger guys because he was fast and vicious.



I myself was a little disppointed he didn't, because I was hoping for free drinks out of the deal. He wasn't the most fun to go out drinking with, and could be a real d*** about alot of things, and had really annoyingly outdated views on men and women. But he was hardly "unmanly"



So I would say, Alistair not wanting to sleep with Morrigan is somehow "unmanly". Given that you can get him to sleep with Isabella in a threesome by hardening him without any protest, his reasons for not wanting to do Morrigan hardly make him less of a "man".

[zaim298]

Helios969 wrote...

zaim298 wrote...

Refusing to bed a woman doesn't mean someone is less a man. Although I'm sure EVERY straight -man would have the thought of bedding the woman, it doesn't matter if he resist or go through with it is a different matter. But I say rejecting the offer actually is a manly thing to do, say like "you're a beautiful woman, but I have a wife and I love her" now ain't that something? *chuckle*

Thank you.  If you're married, then you should show restraint.  Or even in a committed relationship.  (If you have half a brain you will.)

Let us just take in game experience here, I opted to romance Leliana on my 1st playthrough, then Morrigan suddenly "Tis cold in my tent...". Right there, I was like "oooh tempting... you're a sexy witch if i might say so". but then I am already in a relatonship with Leliana, so I turned down the offer. But it doesn't mean I'm gonna walk around with Morrigan in my party with me having a boner LOL. I'm sure Alistair is like "yeah...she's hot alright but nah I can't go through with it coz I hate her"....

Skadi_the_Evil_elf wrote...

So I would say, Alistair not wanting to sleep with Morrigan is somehow
"unmanly". Given that you can get him to sleep with Isabella in a
threesome by hardening him without any protest, his reasons for not
wanting to do Morrigan hardly make him less of a "man".

I don't get it

Modifié par zaim298, 20 février 2010 - 07:48 .

[WingsandRings]

It IS possible to get Alistair to be king (and to become his queen, if you're a human noble) without hardening him, right?



And just to make sure: there's no way to get Loghain without Alistair ending up a drunk, is there? Can you put Alistair on the throne and THEN replace him with Loghain? Does hardening make a difference?

[ejoslin]

WingsandRings wrote...

It IS possible to get Alistair to be king (and to become his queen, if you're a human noble) without hardening him, right?

And just to make sure: there's no way to get Loghain without Alistair ending up a drunk, is there? Can you put Alistair on the throne and THEN replace him with Loghain? Does hardening make a difference?

Even better, you can get an unhardened Alistair to marry your character at 0 neutral.  A Coulsand makes a fine match!  But if you spare Loghain, no queen for you!  And it doesn't matter whether he's hardened or unhardened.  The major differences are, well, whether Alistair is willing to keep you as a mistress if you two don't end up married, and if he wants to be king or not, and of course, how good a king he turns out to be.

[zaim298]

WingsandRings wrote...

It IS possible to get Alistair to be king (and to become his queen, if you're a human noble) without hardening him, right?

And just to make sure: there's no way to get Loghain without Alistair ending up a drunk, is there? Can you put Alistair on the throne and THEN replace him with Loghain? Does hardening make a difference?

On my 2nd playthrough I recruited Loghain, and yes I 'hardenned' Alistair. Oh boy he's so pissed, but agreed to take the throne with Anora, Loghain sacrifice himself in the end and surprisingly the everything turned out well in the epilogue. (I hope that didn't spoil anything for you )

[CalJones]

You have to harden Alistair for that ending. The funny one is if you do the ritual as well so Loghain is still alive at the end. Boy is Alistair pissed!

[ejoslin]

CalJones wrote...

You have to harden Alistair for that ending. The funny one is if you do the ritual as well so Loghain is still alive at the end. Boy is Alistair pissed!

Hahahaha, oh yes, I LOVE that conversation.  He can't figure out WHY you both are still alive.  What I don't understand is there's no selection saying, "Riorden did it!"

[Bratt1204]

CalJones wrote...

You have to harden Alistair for that ending. The funny one is if you do the ritual as well so Loghain is still alive at the end. Boy is Alistair pissed!

Oh, I would love to hear that conversation. I think it's hysterical hearing Alistair get so pissed off. I don't play male PCs so I guess I never will 

[CalJones]

Well, ya know, Alistair isn't the only romance option for a female Warden.



But yes, I just want to give Al a nice pat on the shoulder and tell him to enjoy his new wife and father-in-law. Heh heh.

[NightmarezAbound]

maxernst wrote...

Alistair's being something of a pansy is his charm. He's an odd cross between a knight in shining armor and a damsel in distress.

 He does say in one convo branch he looks good in a dress.

[Gold Dragon]

Yes, he does, with a fair approval hit.

[SurelyForth]

ejoslin wrote...

CalJones wrote...

You have to harden Alistair for that ending. The funny one is if you do the ritual as well so Loghain is still alive at the end. Boy is Alistair pissed!

Hahahaha, oh yes, I LOVE that conversation.  He can't figure out WHY you both are still alive.  What I don't understand is there's no selection saying, "Riorden did it!"

I really, really, really wish you could tell him that you made Loghain sleep with Morrigan.  I think that's the one thing that could make him forgive the PC!

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

CalJones wrote...

But yes, I just want to give Al a nice pat on the shoulder and tell him to enjoy his new wife and father-in-law. Heh heh.

This is why I chose this ending for the worst possible fate for Alistair. Far crueler than getting executed or becoming a drunk. If Loghain dies, he gets over it all, believing that Loghain paid for his crimes, so something good comes out of it. But my dwarf wasn't about to give him even that bit of sunshine. 

That was my meaner playthrough. Kill Connor, kill the Dalish, defile the ashes, save the anvil, abandon Redcliffe, let caladrius slaughter the elves to make me strong, spare Loghain and force a still-virgin Alistair to marry his **** daughter, then let Loghain and Morrigan breed, so in the end, Alistair gets some very unpleasant and miserable Christmases with his new in-laws. And i run off back to Orzammar to take over the place as i was meant to, and Zevran, for a time, was my love bunny.

I really want to see how that will transfer over to Awakenings.

[CalJones]

I did that ending with my naughty bloodmage who was romancing Morrigan. He was vain and liked the idea of being a godling's baby daddy.

Loghain seemed rather suspicious as to why my mage was alive as well. He seemed rather disappointed at not being dead himself, in fact.

[Sabriana]

I only killed Loghain once at the landsmeet. It was my first play-through (no internet, so utterly unspoiled) and my silly mage was still besotted with Alistair, blithely ignoring the writings on the wall. After the public humiliation, she would've liked to have done the ultimate sacrifice if she hadn't found out that true love does exist, thanks to a certain Antivan. So she had no choice but to let Alistair do the sacrifice, and I hated that, even though it seemed to me that he truly wanted to die, that it was the best possible outcome for him. Poor Alistair.

Reloaded, and left him at the gate, got the Zevran ending which is the worst thing I've ever seen, and reloaded once again. Poor Alistair, but I still had the feeling that he didn't see it as a bad ending for him. I hated having Anora on the throne, and the casual 'shrug-off' Alistair got, so I never executed Loghain again.

Even if he lives, he only has 3 years to live at any rate, and then it's "Deep Road" time for Loghain. But he never does in my endings. His speech at the archdemon killing time was moving, and it showed my PC that he indeed regretted much of what happened. It seemed, with death staring him in the face, that he could finally be honest with himself and the Warden.

Alistair was still angry, but not so much, and he seemed to be coming around. Loved his "If Anora thinks she can rule at her hearts content, she will be surprised." (paraphrased). Go Alistair.

Modifié par Sabriana, 21 février 2010 - 10:20 .