84 réponses à ce sujet

[CybAnt1]

I love the Fade shapeshifts, just wish I could take them out of the Fade. Yeah, I know, only in the dreamworld can I be a Golem. Oh well.

One other thing I found interesting is Alistair's dream. I found out about Goldanna through his dream much earlier than he ever opened up & talked about and mentioned her in camp dialogue.

It was sort of weird when he finally brought her up, much later. I'm like ... so ... is that the chick I saw you dreaming about?

It's obvious why finding his sister is so important to him ... she haunts his dreams. And it's so sad to finally meet her.

I hate "hardening" him for doing so, although yes it enables you to get the infamous Pearl menage-a-trois if you're so inclined, and makes it easier to convince him to be king.

It's cool that the game has an area you have to solo. What it essentially means in practical terms is it means your PC gets a 21 pt attribute boost no one else can get plus gets so ahead of XP than your other companions that s/he always levels up faster. I think that's a game design decision, to keep your PC "superiority".

It helps to be a ranger in the Fade ... I know some people like to do the whole game solo ... well, even doing this part solo, it sometimes sure feels good to have a bear, wolf, or spider who can help you out in a pinch, especially before you get the shapeshift forms (which I agree are pretty powerful). 

But in terms of the navigation ... DOING the bloody maze ... sorry this is one area where I simply follow the path suggested by the game guide. ESP. on 2nd runthrough.

Modifié par CybAnt1, 19 février 2010 - 01:47 .

[e-ver]

ejoslin wrote...
That is even more the reason NOT to question them about it.  This is just too personal, and stuff that they don't reveal.  Until they're ready to talk about that stuff themselves (and in most cases they do, though Zevran requires a bit of digging to hear about the torture), it's best to just respect their privacy until they choose to talk.  

Edit: Zevran asks what happened to the luscious wood nymphs.  This to me is one of the most revealing insights into his character, and shows that many of his lewd comments are deflections, designed to distract people away from knowing anything personal about him.

Hmm, maybe you're right.
I guess I'm just a glutton when it comes to additional dialogue. I wouldn't even object if questioning them would inevitably lead to loosing approval points, because the main character is prying (especially with Zevran). I would just like to know how they feel about something, that must have been a harrowing experience for all of them.

Oh and of course, now that you mentioned it, I remember the wood nymphs Aww, Zevran is just so beautifully written with all his layers and masks.

Modifié par Allerleihrau, 19 février 2010 - 02:21 .

[RobinMichelleB]

I thought it would have been interesting to have Alistair ask my character what she saw in the Fade, especially since he's very adamant about not telling anyone else he was so easily fooled. Especially if you're friendly or in a relationship at that time, it seems strange that he doesn't ask. I always wanted the option to tell him that I knew the fortress in the Fade couldn't be real because he wasn't by my side. But I am a hopeless fangirl.

[Rhonyn1422]

I agree with Robin. There are many occcurances where it would be nice to get Allistar's "take" on what happened. Wish we could have more options for communication.

[RobinMichelleB]

Especially since you find out later (well, I found out later anyway) that his sister is real. In my initial game, I just thought it was what he wanted and he made it up. Then later I was like, HUH? You might have mentioned this after the Fade!

[Sabriana]

Zevran, Oghren and Sten shouldn't be asked, their nightmares were far too personal.

Leliana, well, there was really nothing new here that she herself hasn't already said.

Morrigan is aware of being in the fate, which would beg the question why Wynne wasn't. I'd like to ask her why she was so unaware of being in a dream state, her being senior enchanter and all.

Shale and dog are more or less self-explanatory.

Alistair on the other hand, begs an interesting question. If the PC hasn't done his personal quest, how come he knows how Goldanna looks, and that she has a large family? He is rather vague when talking about her to the PC. Could it be that he did go to Denerim wanting to speak to her, but lost his nerve? Did he observe her, and conjured up family ties and happiness? If that's so, then poor Alistair. It must've been doubly hard to receive such a low blow when reality hit.


Edited to apologize to the OP for hijacking. But on the other hand, it goes toward showing that the fade has indeed very interesting aspects.

Modifié par Sabriana, 19 février 2010 - 02:33 .

[Reaverwind]

Sabriana wrote...

Morrigan is aware of being in the fate, which would beg the question why Wynne wasn't. I'd like to ask her why she was so unaware of being in a dream state, her being senior enchanter and all.

I'd dearly love to rake Madame Attuned-to-the-fade over the coals for this one, and then further rub it in by mentioning that the apostate had more of a clue than she did. I don't particularly care for Morrigan, but my respect for her went up after this one.

[ejoslin]

Wynne in the fade -- you HAVE to take her, and I think her dream shows how quick she is to place blame. It shatters, IMO, the "Ms. Perfect" front she puts on. She blames herself at first for failing the circle and wants to just be worthless afterwards instead of working to fix anything, and then turns on  the warden and blames them for failing both her and the circle.  She is very angry and accusatory towards the warden who has done nothing but try to help her.

I like that actually, because it shows Wynne not as she wants to appear, but as she really is. Why rub her face in it? You now know the truth about her. If the Guardian isn't going to make her face who she is and what she does, the Warden certainly isn't either.

Modifié par ejoslin, 19 février 2010 - 02:49 .

[EccentricSage]

All good points being made. I guess I would want there to be the option of them talking to you about the fade, each in their own character apropriate way...and then some of your options would be different ways of breaching the subject of what you saw, or else playing along with any deflection the character may be using if they seem really troubled. The way I'm playing most my characters wouldn't push themselves on them. But if my character has high aprooval with a character, it seems right to be able to put their mind at ease about what I saw, instead of it being the brankoe in the room.

I also just wish you get a chance to COMFORT Zevran. It's so cruel. He always has to be strong, even when he does open up. He deserves someone to go a little further than saying they feel for him. After all, we know how little words mean to him. I would love to be able to do more for him. Not to mention I imagine his confusion at being wrapped in a gentle embrace instead of dragged off to the tent would melt my heart. The writing for Zevran is truly beautiful, but sometimes I think the writing for the PC options are rather lacking, and detract a bit from the full potential of the experience.

ejoslin wrote...

Wynne in the fade -- you HAVE to take
her, and I think her dream shows how quick she is to place blame. It
shatters, IMO, the "Ms. Perfect" front she puts on. She blames herself
at first for failing the circle and wants to just be worthless
afterwards instead of working to fix anything, and then turns on  the
warden and blames them for failing both her and the circle.  She is
very angry and accusatory towards the warden who has done nothing but
try to help her.

I like that actually, because it shows Wynne
not as she wants to appear, but as she really is. Why rub her face in
it? You now know the truth about her. If the Guardian isn't going to
make her face who she is and what she does, the Warden certainly isn't
either.

Spoiler alerts for Wynne and Zevran back stories below.

My character hadn't known Wynne well enough to be anything but confused in her fade scene.  But yeah... I'd rather be able to bring it up later.  She eventually did tell me about her tragic mistake, and how she's learned from it, but the possible responces didn't fit.  I wanted, oh so badly, to tell her, allbeit gently, that she is STILL making that mistake, even with the best of intentions.  One of the dialogue options pissed me off... to say that he didn't die in vein if she learned from it.  What kind of self rightious BS is that?  inocent elf dies, and there's an option to tell her that's better than ok.  Ugh.  Pissed me off.  Not so much at her, but the writers for not thinking it out better.  I think I was too afraid to check how she'd react to that.  That convo left my Dalish feeling bitter enough as it is.  It is just so not right.

And yet, when Zevran tells me about his horible heartbreaking mistake, I didn't get any 'she didn't die in vein' option for him, even though in his case it would have held a deaper meaning, would have honored her death... because it's all about the fact that someone did value her enough that it impacted him so deaply.  That drove me nuts.  None of the reactions IMO were adequet for the pain he was in. 

And you know, it strikes me that arogence and fear of inadequecy are two things Zevran and Wynne had in common in their pasts.  It was both their downfall.  I wish I had an option to simply tell Wynne that there's a part of them that's more alike than she knows, and that it's utterly cruel to talk down to him without understanding what he's been through.  She's making the same mistake as with that poor elf mage.

Modifié par EccentricSage, 19 février 2010 - 03:06 .

[Yrkoon]

Reaverwind wrote...

Sabriana wrote...

Morrigan is aware of being in the fate, which would beg the question why Wynne wasn't. I'd like to ask her why she was so unaware of being in a dream state, her being senior enchanter and all.

I'd dearly love to rake Madame Attuned-to-the-fade over the coals for this one, and then further rub it in by mentioning that the apostate had more of a clue than she did. I don't particularly care for Morrigan, but my respect for her went up after this one.

There's a couple instances in this game where  it's Morrigan, and not Wynne, who seems most 'aware' of   what's  really going on.  In Soldier's Keep she  confirms that the mending of the "veil" will hold.   In the Urn of Sacred Ashes quest she instantly recognises that the Guardian is  nothing more than  a  spirit playing on the  party members' guilt.

I think it's the story writers' way of  portraying   her intelligence.


Wynne is  old and experienced, and that translates into Wisdom. (she loves giving advise)  but she doesn't strike me as  all that smart.  On the other hand, Morrigan is  a par-the-course genius mage, but she lacks the Wisdom.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 19 février 2010 - 03:05 .

[Reaverwind]

EccentricSage wrote...

I also just wish you get a chance to COMFORT Zevran. It's so cruel. He always has to be strong, even when he does open up. He deserves someone to go a little further than saying they feel for him. After all, we know how little words mean to him. I would love to be able to do more for him. Not to mention I imagine his confusion at being wrapped in a gentle embrace instead of dragged off to the tent would melt my heart. The writing for Zevran is truly beautiful, but sometimes I think the writing for the PC options are rather lacking, and detract a bit from the full potential of the experience.

You can say that again. I've noticed that responses where you disagree with Wynne tend to be childish, and is part of why I've come to dislike her character so much.

[Ramante]

CybAnt1 wrote...
It helps to be a ranger in the Fade ... I know some people like to do the whole game solo ... well, even doing this part solo, it sometimes sure feels good to have a bear, wolf, or spider who can help you out in a pinch, especially before you get the shapeshift forms (which I agree are pretty powerful). 

It doesn't help. I tried to summon my pet wolf there, didn't work. I got the 'ability does not work here' (or something like that).

I think the reason why you can't talk to your companions about their dreams after the quest is the fact that they have forgotten being there. A lot of people forget their dreams or aren't even aware of the fact that they have dreams at all.

I would love to be able to talk to Sten about his nightmare... I want to know his real name. I aso find it very funny that you can tell him 'I'm still in charge.', the response of the other qunari are just great.

[ejoslin]

EccentricSage wrote...

Spoiler alerts for Wynne and Zevran back stories below.

My character hadn't known Wynne well enough to be anything but confused in her fade scene.  But yeah... I'd rather be able to bring it up later.  She eventually did tell me about her tragic mistake, and how she's learned from it, but the possible responces didn't fit.  I wanted, oh so badly, to tell her, allbeit gently, that she is STILL making that mistake, even with the best of intentions.  One of the dialogue options pissed me off... to say that he didn't die in vein if she learned from it.  What kind of self rightious BS is that?  inocent elf dies, and there's an option to tell her that's better than ok.  Ugh.  Pissed me off.  Not so much at her, but the writers for not thinking it out better.  I think I was too afraid to check how she'd react to that.  That convo left my Dalish feeling bitter enough as it is.  It is just so not right.

And yet, when Zevran tells me about his horible heartbreaking mistake, I didn't get any 'she didn't die in vein' option for him, even though in his case it would have held a deaper meaning, would have honored her death... because it's all about the fact that someone did value her enough that it impacted him so deaply.  That drove me nuts.  None of the reactions IMO were adequet for the pain he was in. 

And you know, it strikes me that arogence and fear of inadequecy are two things Zevran and Wynne had in common in their pasts.  It was both their downfall.  I wish I had an option to simply tell Wynne that there's a part of them that's more alike than she knows, and that it's utterly cruel to talk down to him without understanding what he's been through.  She's making the same mistake as with that poor elf mage.

One major difference -- Zevran is FAR smarter than Wynne.  I also don't see him as having a fear of inadequacy, though. He has a very good sense of his own excellence in all things.  Does he trust people? Gah, no, and it takes a long time before that changes.  But it would be crazy if he did trust anyone.

And you didn't take the "at least you learned from your mistake" as being snarky towards Wynne?  I sure did, along with the comment, "And all along I thought you were perfect."  Though Wynne didn't take them as snarky, which I thought said a lot about her as well -- she really believes that people see her as she wants them to see her.

I don't know, I find the dialog options for Zevran's final mission adequate.  You can be very caring in it -- and he does forgive himself.  

Edit: Wow, Wynne hate and Zevran squee in a fade thread.  Funny how that happens.

Modifié par ejoslin, 19 février 2010 - 03:31 .

[Sabriana]

Ramante wrote...

CybAnt1 wrote...
It helps to be a ranger in the Fade ... I know some people like to do the whole game solo ... well, even doing this part solo, it sometimes sure feels good to have a bear, wolf, or spider who can help you out in a pinch, especially before you get the shapeshift forms (which I agree are pretty powerful). 

It doesn't help. I tried to summon my pet wolf there, didn't work. I got the 'ability does not work here' (or something like that).

I think the reason why you can't talk to your companions about their dreams after the quest is the fact that they have forgotten being there. A lot of people forget their dreams or aren't even aware of the fact that they have dreams at all.

I would love to be able to talk to Sten about his nightmare... I want to know his real name. I aso find it very funny that you can tell him 'I'm still in charge.', the response of the other qunari are just great.

Same here. No bear no wolf. My rogue/ranger was pretty bummed about that. But then she figured that shape-shifting partially made up for that.

It's not a given that people forget their dreams all the time. Some linger, and nightmares have the tendency to be the worst of the 'lingerers'. Zevran's comment after the dream seems to reveal that he indeed remembers, and Morrigan was never 'under' so to speak.

And Wynne, being a mage, should also be aware. As to her being wise, well, that's debatable. But then again, what isn't as far as DA:O is concerned.

[ExistsAlready]

The Sloth Demon tries to provide illusions that play on the party's deepest emotions. Morrigan gets a kinder mother, Sten gets his comrades back and the Warden gets Duncan back. They all see through it because it goes against the grain in a big way.



For Wynne, the demon uses her sense of responsibility against her, with something far more plausible and emotional. Possibly aided by a little of her own hubris, ie "This is strange but it can't be the Fade, I've always been so good with the Fade".

[EccentricSage]

ExistsAlready wrote...

The Sloth Demon tries to provide illusions that play on the party's deepest emotions. Morrigan gets a kinder mother, Sten gets his comrades back and the Warden gets Duncan back. They all see through it because it goes against the grain in a big way.

For Wynne, the demon uses her sense of responsibility against her, with something far more plausible and emotional. Possibly aided by a little of her own hubris, ie "This is strange but it can't be the Fade, I've always been so good with the Fade".

The Sloth daemon sure failed at reading my warden, then.  He merely respected Duncan.  They had only just met when he died, pretty much.  It was a lazy alternative to making a unique nightmare for each origin.  If it were the Dalish camp, even though as a player I'm wise to what is going on, it still would have shaken me, being so personal to my Dalish.  I would have felt that my character's torment was on par with some of the others, since he'd be forced to atack the people whom he misses so much, whom he was told he might never even find again.  That's pretty harsh.  But when Duncan apeared, my Dalish knew that this was BS.

[ExistsAlready]

I think the Warden's nightmare is meant to be more the removal of the burden of being one of only two Grey Wardens against an entire Blight with the country falling to pieces around them. In that situation, the idea of being free of such a crushing responsibility would be a godsend.

The problem came when the Sloth Demon tried to use someone important in the Grey Wardens to inform and reassure you and the only person you knew was Duncan. Who happened to be dead, at the time.

Modifié par ExistsAlready, 19 février 2010 - 03:46 .

[Sabriana]

EccentricSage wrote...

ExistsAlready wrote...

The Sloth Demon tries to provide illusions that play on the party's deepest emotions. Morrigan gets a kinder mother, Sten gets his comrades back and the Warden gets Duncan back. They all see through it because it goes against the grain in a big way.

For Wynne, the demon uses her sense of responsibility against her, with something far more plausible and emotional. Possibly aided by a little of her own hubris, ie "This is strange but it can't be the Fade, I've always been so good with the Fade".

The Sloth daemon sure failed at reading my warden, then.  He merely respected Duncan.  They had only just met when he died, pretty much.  It was a lazy alternative to making a unique nightmare for each origin.  If it were the Dalish camp, even though as a player I'm wise to what is going on, it still would have shaken me, being so personal to my Dalish.  I would have felt that my character's torment was on par with some of the others, since he'd be forced to atack the people whom he misses so much, whom he was told he might never even find again.  That's pretty harsh.  But when Duncan apeared, my Dalish knew that this was BS.

Oh, I agree. My HN rogue actually disliked Duncan. She had to be torn away from her parents by conscription. If the demon had used Fergus, on the other hand....

As to the other point, Wynne is a mage. No matter what, she should have been aware, logically speaking. But she's not only completely drawn in, she actually believes all she sees. And sees fit to berate the PC for 'being nowhere to be found'. And that after the PC tried to tell her twice that this is all unreal.

Morrigan was not taken in at all, and quite upset at the demon for trying to make a fool out of her. Morrigan disapproves -25

[Addai]

ejoslin wrote...

Wynne in the fade -- you HAVE to take her, and I think her dream shows how quick she is to place blame. It shatters, IMO, the "Ms. Perfect" front she puts on. She blames herself at first for failing the circle and wants to just be worthless afterwards instead of working to fix anything, and then turns on  the warden and blames them for failing both her and the circle.  She is very angry and accusatory towards the warden who has done nothing but try to help her.

I like that actually, because it shows Wynne not as she wants to appear, but as she really is. Why rub her face in it? You now know the truth about her. If the Guardian isn't going to make her face who she is and what she does, the Warden certainly isn't either.

This last time I got her response where she looks confused when you tell her she's in the Fade and says "I've always had an affinity for the Fade" and then goes back to her paralysis of self-pity and judgment.   I would like to say "And your point is?  Perhaps this thinking you're special is part of the problem here?"

Morrigan is so much stronger in the Fade- will have no truck with demons, as you hear from her on several occasions- which is ironic since she was never put through the Harrowing or watched by templars all her life.  She points out this irony to Alistair when he asks about the Tower.

I would like the opportunity to ask Wynne where her Fade spirit was when this was happening.  Any thoughts?

[ExistsAlready]

Being a mage doesn't magically (heh) make you immune to the tricks of demons and the Fade. Not even Spirit Healers. One codex entry, I forget which, tell how some have been taken in by demons posing as spirits and turned into abominations. If anything, being a mage makes you more susceptible to the influences of the Fade.

[EccentricSage]

ejoslin wrote...

One major difference -- Zevran is FAR smarter than Wynne.  I also don't see him as having a fear of inadequacy, though. He has a very good sense of his own excellence in all things.  Does he trust people? Gah, no, and it takes a long time before that changes.  But it would be crazy if he did trust anyone.

And you didn't take the "at least you learned from your mistake" as being snarky towards Wynne?  I sure did, along with the comment, "And all along I thought you were perfect."  Though Wynne didn't take them as snarky, which I thought said a lot about her as well -- she really believes that people see her as she wants them to see her.

I don't know, I find the dialog options for Zevran's final mission adequate.  You can be very caring in it -- and he does forgive himself.  

Edit: Wow, Wynne hate and Zevran squee in a fade thread.  Funny how that happens.

Spoilericious for your satisfaction.  or not.  look out below! 


Or is it?  I'm not even sure anymore. 

Oh, I agree with you there!  But still, it irks the hell out of me that she doesn't see it, nor does she try.  I would love to confront her with the mere fact that she still treats some people the way she treated her student.

I used the wrong word... I think, they both feared failure, and both feared not living up to the facade they wanted to embrace.  Get what I mean?  Zevran wanted greatness and worth, and wished he could just be cold.  Wynne wanted greatness and worth in her way too, and became cold.  Both of them made a horible mistake that cost someone their life in the end, and had been cruel to said individual.  The heart of their hubris in this case is simular.  They were both liveing a life that they hadn't the luxury of choosing, and both trying to find themselves and be valued once they acsepted their fates.  

In Wynne's case, she became valued within her prison, but I don't beleive she ever found herself.  In Zevran's case, he found himself, but was not valued within his prison.

I think Zevran has been far braver and has grown leaps and bounds, where as Wynne still clings to the Circle and to her old ways, including her hubris.  This, this is why I wish I could say something repremanding to her, specificaly measuring her against Zevran.  I think it would be a shock to her.  One that she deserves.  If she does not grow from it, then she can leave.


I see what you mean about those dialogue options.  and THIS is why it bugs me that our character's dialogue options are not at least voice acted.  I acsidentally hurt Alistair's fealings once because I said something I THOUGHT was a joke and it turned out to be serious.  They could at least put in parenthasis (serious) (sarcastic)(joking) (reasuring)   

Your enterpretation does make sence.  I think if I chose that dialogue with win, I would have hated her if she reacted positively to it.  I think my Dalish wants an elder around, dispencing advice, because it reminds him of home.  But there are lines you don't f***ing cross.


That is true, about Zevran's final mission dialogue, but, you know, I thought he deserved more.

[Yrkoon]

ExistsAlready wrote...

Being a mage doesn't magically (heh) make you immune to the tricks of demons and the Fade. Not even Spirit Healers. One codex entry, I forget which, tell how some have been taken in by demons posing as spirits and turned into abominations. If anything, being a mage makes you more susceptible to the influences of the Fade.

All things being equal, Wynne  and Morrigan are both mages.     Wyne falls for the fade illusion.... Morrigan doesn't.

The only defense of Wynne that I can  come up with  here is that  her "nightmare" was a more clever deception on the part of the demons.  With Morrigan, the Demon chose to put up an illusion of someone that she knows really *really* well:  her mother... she's been living with her mother all her life.   She's obviously going to be able to spot the slightest of inconsistancies in the illusion  right off the bat  (which is precisely what happens)  After that, it's just a matter of  disbelieving.

Wynne gets  an  illusion of  some dead apprentices  she hasn't seen in ages....  it's much easier to believe something like that.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 19 février 2010 - 04:25 .

[Sabriana]

Yrkoon, if it had been only the elf apprentice, I could understand. But there were three apprentices laying prone, and she actually says "they are all dead". It would actually have made more sense if it had been only Aneirin.



In the lore (I don't know if it's a codex entry or on the load-screen) it states that all but dwarfs are pulled into the fade in dreams, but only mages stay aware. Morrigan did. Wynne didn't.

[R-F]

on my first play through as a mage it was the worst part of the game. as a warrior on my second play it was much easier. its certainly an interesting part of the game, though the trippyness started to get to me after awhile.

[Reaverwind]

Addai67 wrote...

Morrigan is so much stronger in the Fade- will have no truck with demons, as you hear from her on several occasions- which is ironic since she was never put through the Harrowing or watched by templars all her life.  She points out this irony to Alistair when he asks about the Tower.

So ironic, that Bioware missed the oppurtunity for some hilarious dialogue:

Ogren: Hold on. Our fearless leader says mages have to undergo some sort of test in the Harem chamber to prove they can resist demons.....

PC: *sigh* Harrowing chamber

Ogren: whatever

Gregoir: That's right

Ogren: And now they're all possessed by demons

Morrigan: Really, did you expect that to be an adequate test for such pathetic sheep?

ExistsAlready wrote...

Being a mage doesn't magically (heh) make you immune to the tricks of demons and the Fade. Not even Spirit Healers. One codex entry, I forget which, tell how some have been taken in by demons posing as spirits and turned into abominations. If anything, being a mage makes you more susceptible to the influences of the Fade.

Which makes you wonder about Wynne......

Modifié par Reaverwind, 19 février 2010 - 04:42 .